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Bad Guy Seller TimTina - Shipping NEONATE CHAMS!

Yes, you need to ALWAYS have the food on hand before the animal arrives.
You don't get a snake and then worry about it's food do you?
You don't get a dog or cat and not know what a healthy food for it is do you?
How about a frog? Lizard? Gecko? No. ALWAYS have the food on hand first.
 
Okay, so I've read through this thread a couple times and I still don't fully understand all the inconsistencies.

The OP's last post says quite clearly:

FOR THE LAST TIME I DIDN'T ASK FOR UNDER 2 INCHES! That's what I thought her smallest WAS!
Click to expand...

But the very first post states the exact opposite:

Was told it would be 8 weeks / 2 inches. Although we asked for a smaller cham, what we received is approx a 1.5 inch 4 week old
Click to expand...


So you were told it would be 2 inches and you asked for smaller by your own words. I'm not sure why the story changes by the most recent post. Meeting a customer's request seems like a reasonable practice for a seller to make. There's also no need to get upset by posting all in caps... we are simply going off of your own words.

Secondly, the age of the animal varies widely throughout the OP's posts. Again in the very first OP's post (quoted above), the age of the delivered animal was stated at 4 weeks. This changes to straight out of the egg pretty quickly:

I wasn't expecting a neonate straight out the egg.
Click to expand...

This again changes several pages down to 2 days old:

I didn't ASK FOR 1/2 INCH! Are you not reading??! But let me ask you this, if I asked you to ship a 2 day old (whatever it is you sell) would you do it??
Click to expand...

I could be wrong about this one but if you are not drawing a parallel between this seller and your seller shipping 2 day old animals, then what is the point of this post?

So the animal is 4 weeks old, straight out of the egg, and 2 days old all simultaneously.

Several people here have tried to help you find available food, including the seller:

Let me know if you want us to pay Josh for some fruit flies for you, just let me know and I will contact him immediately.
Click to expand...

This was extremely gracious and not something you often encounter, especially by a seller with a now undeserved (in my opinion) bad BOI.

What exactly is the problem besides receiving an animal that you asked for? I don't mean to aggravate the OP but I just don't understand this post.
 
Paige I just had something similar happen to me. I just bought a collection of 40 ball pythons from a guy and due to my stupidity I dident have food for them and had to guy a rat rack and when I asked him to either pay for the rack or buy the food for me he said NO. I said HOW DARE YOU!

Tim I think you bent over backwards for them. GOOD FOR YOU!

Paige please NEVER contact me about any animal I have for sale!
 
From reading the e-mails the seller was extremely helpful and spent a lot of time trying to help the buyer figure out what should have already been figured out. The seller, imo, went above and beyond what should have been expected of them. The op seems like the buyer from hell.
 
From: Tina <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 13:13:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: [email protected]<[email protected]>
ReplyTo: Tina <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Nosy B's

They are tiny and sooooo cute.....They all started hatching the last week of June/1st week July.....lil firecrackers....LOL
They are eating 1/8" crickets, small phoenix worms and flightless fruit flies. probably a few crickets couple time per day, we have 10 of them so hard to say how many one eats but the bigger ones, which is what you are getting probably 3-5 crickets in am and again in pm and dozen or so fruit flies.....you will be able to tell how much, I tend to over do it but try to make sure everyone has enough. Do you have calcium, vitamins, enclosure, drip, etc. setup?
Thanks,
Tina :eek:)

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: Tina <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: Nosy B's

***I EDITED THIS SECTION AND TOOK OUT HER HOME ADDRESS SO IT WOULD NOT BE PUBLIC-Tina** Temps at nite are in the 80s to high 70's but its very humid. When was the DOB and how much to feed per day? I've never had one this small. Thanks
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: Tina <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 11:48:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: [email protected]<[email protected]>
ReplyTo: Tina <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Nosy B's

I am guessing that you are JPMENSING...?
Please verify your shipping address and I will need a phone number for Fed Ex too. Someone will need to be there to sign for the package also.

Tina :eek:)


From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: Tina <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Nosy B's

Please confirm payment also. Thanks Paige
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: Tina <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:57:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: [email protected]<[email protected]>
ReplyTo: Tina <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Nosy B's

She is eating 1/8" crickets, small phoenix worms and flightless fruit flies....
Yes we normally ship Monday, tues, Wed but if you need her shipped tomorrow we can but we prefer not too just in case problems close to the weekend. You will need to sign for her and we ship Fed Ex Express priority overnight. Your total would be $165 and our paypal is same as email: [email protected]

Tina :eek:)
______________________________________
In the above emails I told her before she even purchased what they were eating, then again and also asked if she had setup,etc. She has now filed a dispute case on paypal because it says she 'did not receive what she paid for, here is the quote from paypal resolution center case "# 8/20/2011 19:04 PDT - Buyer: Purchased an animal that I was told was 6-8 wks old. Animal arrived smaller than stated at about 4 weeks of age MAX. Unable to provide adequate food /care for her and have asked to be able to return this animal for a refund / swap her for a larger animal or be refunded in full to allow the opportunity to care for her without incurring excessive expense. Animal was sold far too young even for an experienced owner and is surely a death sentence. Seller blames me for asking for a smaller animal but I had no idea she would send one under 2 inches in length. Have tried for two days to secure appropriate nutrition for this animal to no avail. Seller needs to do right thing and refund as this item should have never been sold to begin with.
# 8/20/2011 18:58 PDT - Buyer: Sold an animal that was too young to be properly cared for. I have asked to return the animal for a refund OR refund the purchase price so I can attempt to save it's life."

That is what was posted on the paypal dispute from Paige. If you also look on Chameleon Forums, he has some posting there also and stated it was a different age there also and someone even told her they had a two week old panther and it was eating good on the fruit flies. Again, I hope she ordered food because she did not contact me back and answer me if she wanted me to order her some from Josh's Frogs. I guess this is just frustrating because if she would have ordered what I told her, she would have had the right food on Friday....:O( Sorry everyone I really don't want to keep this going but wanted to at least answer the specific question from BobbyDD. Thank you...
 
Where are the pics of the "too small" baby cham? Weren't they supposed to be posted?

I agree. If someone BUYS an animal, the BUYER should have the appropriate sized food for it. End of story. I recently got into boas. But before I even purchased a single snake, I went out and spent the money on a rat rack, and I actually was given a small breeding collection of rats from a friend. I recently PURCHASED a snake that I don't have the appropriate sized food for in my rack, so I, ALL BY MYSELF, have to go BUY appropriate sized food for it until my rats grow to the right size.
Not once did I even THINK about asking the SELLER to pay for my food, or even send me food for that matter. Why? That's because it's NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. Do you want them to clean the cage for you too?

Way to premature for a BOI thread. Not only that, but the seller was EXTREMELY helpful with giving many options for food options...
 
Personally I think it's shameful for someone to be TOLD exactly what the animal was eating, down to the exact size of crix and then say that somehow it's not their fault that they don't have appropriate food. Saying that the crickets would only live 4 days is bizarre. If you KNEW beforehand that you would need fruit flies, small phoenix worms and 1/8 inch crix... why didn't you make sure you'd have some? If the baby had arrived at 2 EXACT inchs, you would STILL have needed the same food items. So why are you harping about "industry standard" which is bogus, there's no 'industry' with written rules. All the babies were eating just fine on the mentioned food items, you seemed all about getting a 2 inch baby, knew what you needed... yet you didn't bother to get any food?

I'd like to ask a really simple question. Why did you ask for a "smaller female" rather than the largest of the clutch? Even if you thought it would be exactly 2 inchs(which doesn't make sense either, if you wanted smaller but thought the smallest would be 2 inchs, why say "smaller"? Why not say "a 2 inch"?) why would you ask deliberately for a smaller animal in the first place?

You received the animal then basically said to the breeder "I don't have food for it, it's your fault if it dies" then you get angry when the breeder tells you "feed it!" What did you think they'd say? "Let it starve"??
 
You REALLY need to end that paypal dispute, as the seller did absolutely nothing wrong!!
 
That's pretty sad considering THIS WILL be on here forever and it will be an unnecessary blemish. Apparently they didn't get the responses they wanted. Sometimes you can't make everyone happy.
 
Homegrown Scales said:
That's pretty sad considering THIS WILL be on here forever and it will be an unnecessary blemish. Apparently they didn't get the responses they wanted. Sometimes you can't make everyone happy.
Click to expand...

I agree but I really think if anything this helps the seller's rep to anyone that actually reads the thread. I know if I were considering buying from them this would make me feel more comfortable about it. I'd still like to see ALL the e-mails from before shipping though.
 
Chamcrazi said:
So you are also of the mindset the seller isn't the least bit responsible for selling her animals far before they are ready to leave the nest? It's all on the buyer who NEVER claimed to have experience with x week old neonates? I see. No, you've been quite helpful. Thanks.
Click to expand...

If I were asked the question...

I would state NO not necessarily but you are also responsible for your own ignorance. Not the seller.

Although, I happen to believe Laura made some very good points in her post about both parties one can't overlook the biggest part of your complaint.
That you can't provide food. So lets look at it from the business part of the transaction for some type of fraud on the seller's part. After-all, that is what your complaint is about.

The problem with that is that it was specifically laid out for you what the animal was eating. You received that information, correct?


Chamcrazi said:
THIS CHAM WAS NOT READY TO BE SHIPPED AND/OR LEAVE THE NEST. And that's the bottom line regardless of WHO the buyer was.
Click to expand...

Actually, after reading that paypal dispute I consider you the bad guy. If Paypal refunds you I will consider you a thief. Particularly because you would like to keep the animal and be refunded as you state to provide the extra care in feeding. It appears to me (at-least at this point) you are after a free animal. Your reasons in the dispute to paypal that you can't acquire the food without undo hardship is not the seller's fault. It's yours and it's only a hardship for you because you didn't research before your purchase.

Again, You were TOLD upfront what the animal was eating. There is absolutely no excuse for you to purchase the animal if you couldn't provide what it was eating. There is absolutely no excuse for you to lay it on the seller's feet for your ignorance.

No-matter what some will tell you the industry standard is on size, it has no bearing on you buying any animal with ignorance towards its care.

Regardless of everything you state that you now have been informed of after your purchase, you were told what it was eating before the acceptance of the deal and received the animal. You are the only one responsible for your knowledge ahead of the purchase. It's not the sellers job to educate you.

That's all on you. You are to quick to blame others for your own ignorance. YOU made the mistake of going forward with a deal not knowing if you can supply the correct food that was expressed to you in writing beforehand.

You are someone no seller here or anywhere should be comfortable doing business with.

You are asking for a refund through paypal because you can't feed a animal that you were told what it was eating ahead of time and now you would like to keep that animal. You are to much of a risk to do business with online.

Your not taking any responsibility for your own actions.

AND,
"OR refund the purchase price so I can attempt to save it's life."
Click to expand...
What does the refund have to do with you attempting to safe its life? NOTHING!

At this point, the animal hasn't starved to death, isn't ill, and just needs to be feed. You are responsible for feeding it.

Also, you are stating the animal was to young to be shipped and how dangerous this was yet your first response to this was ship the animal back.

WTH! Does that make any sense? Not to me. Get the food and feed the poor little guy. That should be your only concern at this point. Instead your worried about getting funds back for a animal that hasn't perished or ill at this point. Just that with your own ignorance(Did I use that word enough already?) can't provide the correct food that you were told that it required before the purchase.


 
Great point Dennis!:thumbsup:

On the point about the cham not being big or old enough to "leave the nest" most people know and understand that once a reptile hatches or is born they are essentially on their own. they can fend for themselves. the only diff with us breeding and rearing them is WE have to provide for them.

according to the various e-mails provided you were told what the chams were eating before you got them. you had plenty of time to order food before the cham came in yet you did not thinking you only had to run to the store to pick up the food you would need.

in your own e-mails you have shown that you asked for a cham less than 2 inches and that is what you got as well as a list of what the cham was eating. again you did not think about ordering food ahead of time.

i breed bearded dragons and so i have to order pin head crix or fruit flies every now and then. stating that it is the seller's fault that you don't have the proper food because it was smaller than you expected is unacceptable. you were given the info needed to order or find proper food before the cham got to you. you had time to ask more questions and ask for more info. you didn't. it would be in your best interest to drop the paypal claim that the cham wasn't what you ordered. if the link to the other site to go by you were happy with it and the cham ate for you. i did take the time to read the whole thing through.

you should have already ordered the feeders you need to feed the cham and so they should be there soon, there is no reason to keep up with the charade. take care of the cham you asked for and got properly. it is no extra hardship to order the food your cham needs. if you really cared about the welfare of the cham you ordered then it should not be a hardship to order the food she needs, it is after all what is best for her. if that is the case, not ordering special feeders, then you must only feed crix and nothing else. different feeders cost different amounts of money and if ordering fruit flies or pin heads is too much of a hassle for you then i cannot see you ordering other types of feeders for your current chams.

do us all a favor and go over the e-mails between you and your seller and ask yourself, were you not told what the chams were eating before you received your cham? did not the seller ask you if you had everything ready for the cham you had ordered?

from what has been posted you were told ahead of time what was needed and the seller did in fact ask you if you had everything. again from the e-mails that were posted you skated over the question if you had everything the cham needed. in fact it looks as though you did not answer that question at all.

make sure you order the feeders your cham needs and have them on hand for your cham and be happy with what you got because it was what you asked for, as per the e-mails you yourself have posted.
 
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