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Info Johathon at Breeders Circle saying his Citrus Pastel WO makes our Power House WO

Their have been multiple people post pics of their whiteout animals that came from regular citrus parents,

Not sure I would say whiteouts are coming out of regular citrus pastels, there has to be another gene involved there such as a YB or maybe a calico or something else.while it may be unknown to who ever is producing the white outs/washouts something else is involved. it's possible something is being expressed randomly.

I produced citrus pastels for a few years with nothing other than citrus pastels being produced.these were from Gulf Coast Reptiles bloodline purchased directly from Chris and Sheila of Gulf Coast.

So my thoughts are that another gene has been bred into the citrus pastels that Amir and Clark are working with.and it's not a stretch to think that someone is keeping that hidden gene hush hush so they can make their money by not disclosing the hidden gene that all the breeders want to know about.

Just my opinion.
 
Not sure I would say whiteouts are coming out of regular citrus pastels, there has to be another gene involved there such as a YB or maybe a calico or something else.while it may be unknown to who ever is producing the white outs/washouts something else is involved. it's possible something is being expressed randomly.

I produced citrus pastels for a few years with nothing other than citrus pastels being produced.these were from Gulf Coast Reptiles bloodline purchased directly from Chris and Sheila of Gulf Coast.

So my thoughts are that another gene has been bred into the citrus pastels that Amir and Clark are working with.and it's not a stretch to think that someone is keeping that hidden gene hush hush so they can make their money by not disclosing the hidden gene that all the breeders want to know about.
Just my opinion.

Ed, Although I do agree with you on the majority of the top portion of your post. I must disagree with you on your bottom paragraph. I understand you and everyone else is entitled to their own opinions however, I see things a little differently:

My thoughts are: (Keep in mind, I am personal friends with three parties involved or that have been mentioned in this post; Clark Tucker, Mike Bell & Jonathan Foltz. I am not taking sides. I am postings statements from my opinions from information I have gather from all sides.)

Another Gene is present in the animals Clark Tucker and Mike Bell are working with, not Amir. It is is expressing itself consistantly with both Mike and Clark. It is not a random occurance that pops up here and there.

This gene is creating mutations completely different and much more expressive then the combos being created with Citrus Pastels.

I do believe the Citrus Pastel and Citrus Pastel Whiteout are a very nice line of pastel that brightens up alot of different mutations when crossed together.

However, the visual animals produced consistantly from both Clark Tucker and Mike Bell are in a catagory of their own and should be labeled, marketed and sold as such.

Regarding the gene, I honestly don't think either party has a grasp as to where it came from or how! I don't think anyone that has (The Gene) is keeping anything to themselves, they are still figuring it out.

The fact of the matter is that; It is NOT a random occurance. Half or greater of the clutches that I know Clark has produced and I believe the same with Mike (I never confirmed with him), are producing visual washed-out animals when (The Gene) is crossed with several different mutations, (Not Just Pastels & Calicos).

There is a reason why Clark is selling his visual animals for much more then what Citrus Whiteouts are selling for: They are completely different mutations. (I do not believe Mike has offered the visual animals he has produced for sale.) He sold (1) last year to Amir, whom then resold it for north of 5 digits.

Future breedings of both the visual animals and the siblings will tell us all more in years to come. (This is a ground floor project), Like all ground floor projects, it will take time to figure out: which crosses look better, how the gene works differently with other mutations and most importantly, (If there is a true super form).

Just my (3) cents. :thumbsup:
 
My understanding is that this thread is about misrepresenting bp's that Amir is producing and Jonathan is selling.

Jonathan should be here answering why he has told his customers what he did. was it a dealer saying anything to make a sale? or was it a dealer that was repeating what he was told by the breeder he bought from?

Jonathan has dug a hole so deep that he is not man enough to show up to explain.

How the heck did Mike Bell get dragged into this thread it's clear he has done nothing wrong here? it is certainly nice of him to talk about what he has produced.
 
imh.o

My understanding is that this thread is about misrepresenting bp's that Amir is producing and Jonathan is selling.

Jonathan should be here answering why he has told his customers what he did. was it a dealer saying anything to make a sale? or was it a dealer that was repeating what he was told by the breeder he bought from?

Jonathan has dug a hole so deep that he is not man enough to show up to explain.

How the heck did Mike Bell get dragged into this thread it's clear he has done nothing wrong here? it is certainly nice of him to talk about what he has produced.


Mike needs to stop MISREPRESENTING this Washout mutation PUBLICLY and change the name of those animals to super pastel calico washout, not Super Citrus Pastel Calico (Possibly named on his picture tags). This will stop giving FUEL to people like Jonathan, Amir and all parties who claimed that the citrus pastel has something to do with this Washout mutation for monetary gains while not caring about screwing people over who they make these claims to. K. Matthews aka mountain top
 
Kevin, I don't think Mike has anything to do with all this, I could be wrong but I would say Mike is going by what he was told and not trying to misrepresent anything. If they are Super Citrus's than you don't label them as Super Pastels, it's a different line. That's like labeling a NERD line Pastel as a Bell line Pastel.
 
Mike needs to stop MISREPRESENTING this Washout mutation PUBLICLY and change the name of those animals to super pastel calico washout, not Super Citrus Pastel Calico (Possibly named on his picture tags). This will stop giving FUEL to people like Jonathan, Amir and all parties who claimed that the citrus pastel has something to do with this Washout mutation for monetary gains while not caring about screwing people over who they make these claims to. K. Matthews aka mountain top

The snakes were purchased as citrus pastels. He has super citrus (line) pastel calicos. Not sure why this is so hard for you and Clark to understand or why is seems like it angers the two of you.

Are you getting anything from Clark to post like you are against Mike? It really sound like you are promoting mikes snakes as washouts for monetary gains to me to make these claims.


When more breedings are done the smoke should clear what is what with these genes and how they are reproduced.
 
Mike needs to stop MISREPRESENTING this Washout mutation PUBLICLY and change the name of those animals to super pastel calico washout, not Super Citrus Pastel Calico (Possibly named on his picture tags). This will stop giving FUEL to people like Jonathan, Amir and all parties who claimed that the citrus pastel has something to do with this Washout mutation for monetary gains while not caring about screwing people over who they make these claims to. K. Matthews aka mountain top

Kevin, Please leave Mike Bell out of this thread and in your opinions. He has already come here as a favor to all that are reading this and posted his findings and the information that he is aware of to date.

Thank you Mike for posting your information, especially the pics of your visual animals and your original female.

Atleast we can all look for the markers that Amir stated in his Radio show and come to our own conclusions.

Lets put this thread to bed, atleast untill further proof (additional clutches are produced and new pictures are posted)!:thumbsup:
 
Mike needs to stop MISREPRESENTING this Washout mutation PUBLICLY and change the name of those animals to super pastel calico washout, not Super Citrus Pastel Calico (Possibly named on his picture tags). This will stop giving FUEL to people like Jonathan, Amir and all parties who claimed that the citrus pastel has something to do with this Washout mutation for monetary gains while not caring about screwing people over who they make these claims to. K. Matthews aka mountain top

Misrepresenting? Seriously dude?

and you want him to add washout to the name because you do not want it to be associated with the washout name? HUH?

Like I have told Clark. You need to FOCUS. Focus your attention on the SUSPECTED wrong doers. Quit focusing your attention on the person who is actually making an honest attempt.
 
Misrepresenting?

Focus your attention on the SUSPECTED wrong doers. Quit focusing your attention on the person who is actually making an honest attempt.

Ritchie, by wrong doers you are talking about the way Jonathan has been advertizing the bp's he bought from Amir?

That's the way I see this.
 
Note I said SUSPECTED wrong doers.
I do not think anything has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I just don't think we should be crucifying anyone who is actually coming forward and being transparent to the community

I for one am interested in the gene. I would like to know how it works. But until I can fully understand it.... I will buy visual.
 
Since you need two Citrus pastels to make a true Super Citrus Pastel, Amir must have lied to Mike about that female being a Citrus Pastel. The female Mike
used to make the calico clutch in question can't be a super
citrus mutation period. It appears Amir tried mislead everyone else as
well. Clark doesn't distinguish which pastel he used when he made the
same washouts that Mike Bell made after him. (It is like an albino,
someone doesn't make another one and change the name).
Mike Bells female the Dam of his one Washout Calico clutch is not a Citrus pastel.
It has none of the markers that Amir (the father of the Citrus Pastel)
stated on his broadcast. The female is clearly a not a citrus pastel.
It also must be a washout since it made identical animals to to Clark
after he produced them. So Mike's Calicos in question can't be super
Citrus pastels period. At best 50% citrus pastel not that it has any
influence over the Washout mutation. This can't be a Super Citrus
Pastel Calico Whiteout (Possible) period. Clark made that washout
calico mutation 1st and it is the washout mutation that makes these
snake so desirable. You can make a great Washout using any line of
pastel and none are related to what the washout does.

K. Matthews aka mountain top
 
not able to edit posts/I corrected it and am reposting it. sorry not a double post.

Since you need two Citrus pastels to make a true Super Citrus Pastel, Amir must have lied to Mike about that female being a Citrus Pastel.
As the female Mike used to make the calico clutch in question is not a citrus pastel.
It appears Amir tried mislead everyone else as
well. Clark doesn't distinguish which pastel he used when he made the
same washouts that Mike Bell made after him. (It is like an albino,
someone doesn't make another one and change the name).
Mike Bells female the Dam of his one Washout Calico clutch is not a Citrus pastel.
It has none of the markers that Amir (the father of the Citrus Pastel)
stated on his broadcast. The female is clearly a not a citrus pastel.
It also must be a washout since it made identical animals to to Clark
after he produced them. So Mike's Calicos in question can't be super
Citrus pastels period. At best 50% citrus pastel not that it has any
influence over the Washout mutation. This can't be a Super Citrus
Pastel Calico Whiteout (Possible) period. Clark made that washout
calico mutation 1st and it is the washout mutation that makes these
snake so desirable. You can make a great Washout using any line of
pastel and none are related to what the washout does.

K. Matthews aka mountain top
ps.
 
Clark doesn't distinguish which pastel he used when he made the
same washouts that Mike Bell made after him. (It is like an albino,
someone doesn't make another one and change the name).

If the above were true this whole darn LOOOOONG thread would not be here.
 
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