Info Johathon at Breeders Circle saying his Citrus Pastel WO makes our Power House WO

[Chris Kennard]

Please, teach me how to troll as hard as you.

It's easy braincell! You just read the posts in a thread, have an opinion that condradicts someone else's(whether or not you're right or wrong), and voila!...someone with no clue will call you a troll.

 

[WebSlave]

If you all don't cut the petty sniping at each other you will ALL be gone from here....

 

[Wilomn]

Left hand side of the screen almost halfway down the page: User CP

click on that and a list will come up. go to edit ignore list and click on that

enter the name you wish to ignore. for example, I have chris kennard, among others, in mine.

Unless one of you quotes him there is no danger of me getting poo on my shoe or having to read any of the crap he thinks is cute or clever.

It really does make the site better.

 

[WebSlave]

My earlier statement applies to you too, Wes.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Huh Whu?

My apologies for those who don't understand my train of thought. Let me make this as clear as possible. I do not believe for a second that the person, or persons, supposedly typing or even conveying their thoughts here for mountain man, are actually "mountain". I wasn't bitten by the "handycapped" spider. Shower me with all the red chicklets you want, supposed fellow herpers. How I present myself is unimportant to those who truly see through "status" and can judge for themselve's what is right versus what is wrong. I can't wait to say "I told you so". In a nutshell, I believe that Mr. Mountain is not the only person posting under his account. I hope I am wrong.

 

[dustinNMpythons]

and a simple IP check should be able to prove or disprove this theory but I don't think he has really showed favoritism towards either side. If anything he keeps going back and forth. First he criticizes Clark and then Amir, Mike, and John.

 

[gotbit1985]

One quick question, didnt someone state earlier that Amir bought the snake from Mike and then sold it for three times what he paid? Sorry just dont have the time to re read everything, but I think I read something like that. But if they did then how is he breeding it back to his animals. Even if he didnt sell it, I have a citrus pastel nothing else mixed in and its a whiteout from early 2010, damn hes good ive never got a female to size and breed it within a month. Some of you are way out of line jumping all over Mike who came in to tell us all he knew on the project, and genetic markers are more noticable on some animals than othwers and line breeding can help bring them out so the first Citrus female Mike bought might not have as strong of markers as the younger animals. Hell do half of you people here talkin smack even have Citruses or whiteouts if not why does it matter to you, as Amir mentioned he would gladly buy back any citrus animal people werent happy with, wonder how many took him up on that. Heres a couple pics of the nonexistent Citrus whiteout, come on people. And here are a couple of my Citrus Calico, dont think hes a visible whiteout. Sorry there are no full body shots hes a mover, someone may want to come steal him so I dont produce super citrus calico whiteouts. And as far as saying they are over priced,if ya dont have the money dont buy one but dont bash them cause they are more than your pastels. Anyone who purchased one knowingly did so, I bought three Citrus animals from Jon and two from Amir neither told me I was going to produce anything other than pastels for sure but that there have been some nice things happening to some of the animals, seeing some of the results i WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY.

 

[HerpVenue]

I plan on buying into one of these genes.
but I plan on buying a VISIBLE animal.

I will not buy an animal that you have to practically turn upside down just to get some white to show up in the picture. Look around. You will see what I am talking about.

I will not buy an animal that has a picture that is so bright that it blinds me. I do not mind if the animal actually blinds me. But when the picture blinds me, it is obvious to me what is going on. Look at some ads.

I will not buy an animal that has one of these names, but yet they do not have anymore white than my normals do.

Right now if you look at the ads for whiteout or washout or whatever, only one person offers visuals. he is the one I willbe buying from. The rest of the people can fall for the other marketing schemes. I do not look at the names to much. I look at the animals.

 

[KingBowser]

I do commend Mike Bell for coming on here and explaining what he knows. I believe his statement on what he has and what he knows about the citrus pastel. However, it's clear that Clark Tucker wasn't happy about Mike's explanation. Seems like misdirected anger...

 

[gotbit1985]

One thing I think is funny is how the citrus gene is under scrutiny, and yet you are all taking Powerhouses word on their snakes, I mean Mike did produce animals that look just like Clarks, it could very well be the calico gene tweaking out some of the combos and the mojave, pastave, and Normal washout are not convincing me they are what they say. Search mojave in google there are many super blushed examples with floating alein heads. I am a fan of the Citrus gene and still think there is alot to be learned but you cannot say there is no citrus whiteout look at the Citrus G-stripes and Citrus Whiteout G-stripes, just because you cant understand it doesnt mean its not still apparent in some of the citruses. The faded out pastel animals from both lines appear to be the same at birth compare the adult Powerhouse washout pastel to adult citruses the are so similar its not even funny, so if the citrus line cant have withouts, how do you explain the powerhouse animal being able to. If they havent bred the single gene powerhouse washout to a pastel that is not related to any line, how are they sure it is what they say. Just a few things I notice not trying to be derogatory either way but In most other boi threads inst it common practice to question all parties involved

 

[JudyC]

One thing I think is funny is how the citrus gene is under scrutiny, and yet you are all taking Powerhouses word on their snakes,...

I think those words are a bit too strong. Who is "you all"? I for one, am not taking anyone's word on anything at the moment. But it doesn't do any good to try and "grill" someone who isn't going to bother reading or answering my questions anyhow. I'd say most of "us all" are just watching and taking in what little scraps of facts are thrown our direction. Someday this may all make sense...but probably not tonight.

 

[mountain top]

My apologies for those who don't understand my train of thought. Let me make this as clear as possible. I do not believe for a second that the person, or persons, supposedly typing or even conveying their thoughts here for mountain man, are actually "mountain". I wasn't bitten by the "handycapped" spider. Shower me with all the red chicklets you want, supposed fellow herpers. How I present myself is unimportant to those who truly see through "status" and can judge for themselve's what is right versus what is wrong. I can't wait to say "I told you so". In a nutshell, I believe that Mr. Mountain is not the only person posting under his account. I hope I am wrong.

How about a simple phone call chris pm me your phone number I'll be more than happy to call you and set you straight.
In the meantime this thread is about the dishonesty that was going on. I am quite satisfied with the proof put forth by Clark Tucker.
As stated by another person Clark is the only person I will be buying washouts from as he's the only one selling visual morphs.
Kevin Matthews aka mountain top

 

[HerpVenue]

One thing I think is funny is how the citrus gene is under scrutiny, and yet you are all taking Powerhouses word on their snakes,

Okay, Okay. I will not take anyone's word. I will just buy visuals. No I won't buy the visuals that you have to practically turn upside down just to see. I won't buy the visuals whose pictures are so bright, that the white of the animals are hardly differentiable with the rest of the white background. I won't buy visuals whose white is not much more than my normals.

just because you cant understand it doesnt mean its not still apparent in some of the citruses.

I have to understand a gene to see a gene? No thanks. As aforementioned I will just buy visuals.

so if the citrus line cant have withouts, how do you explain the powerhouse animal being able to.

I never said citrus can't have whiteout. I just said I will buy visuals

In most other boi threads inst it common practice to question all parties involved

Jonathan knows this thread is here. He does not know the genes of the animals he is peddling. So he refuses to come back. Amir knows this thread is here. Why else would he rush to do some radio talk show? Question him? Okay, get him to show up.

Tell the truth and these people here will be your best friend.
Lie and hide stuff and these people will probably eat you up alive.

 

[Ed Clark]

Okay, Okay.

Jonathan knows this thread is here. He does not know the genes of the animals he is peddling. So he refuses to come back. Amir knows this thread is here. Why else would he rush to do some radio talk show? Question him? Okay, get him to show up.

Jonathan lies then Amir tries to come to his rescue with a radio talk show to cover it up.why not come hear to answer questions?

I'm sorry but they both look like they have alot to hide.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[deborahbroadus]

One quick question, didnt someone state earlier that Amir bought the snake from Mike and then sold it for three times what he paid? Sorry just dont have the time to re read everything, but I think I read something like that. But if they did then how is he breeding it back to his animals. Even if he didnt sell it, I have a citrus pastel nothing else mixed in and its a whiteout from early 2010, damn hes good ive never got a female to size and breed it within a month. Some of you are way out of line jumping all over Mike who came in to tell us all he knew on the project, and genetic markers are more noticable on some animals than othwers and line breeding can help bring them out so the first Citrus female Mike bought might not have as strong of markers as the younger animals. Hell do half of you people here talkin smack even have Citruses or whiteouts if not why does it matter to you, as Amir mentioned he would gladly buy back any citrus animal people werent happy with, wonder how many took him up on that. Heres a couple pics of the nonexistent Citrus whiteout, come on people. And here are a couple of my Citrus Calico, dont think hes a visible whiteout. Sorry there are no full body shots hes a mover, someone may want to come steal him so I dont produce super citrus calico whiteouts. And as far as saying they are over priced,if ya dont have the money dont buy one but dont bash them cause they are more than your pastels. Anyone who purchased one knowingly did so, I bought three Citrus animals from Jon and two from Amir neither told me I was going to produce anything other than pastels for sure but that there have been some nice things happening to some of the animals, seeing some of the results i WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY.

I'm going to have to brush up on my genetic/morph pairing results...but that looks a lot like a "Low-white" Pastel Calico. Abeit a beautiful one.

So, how does one differniate between the "Citrus" and plain pastel (there are still some quality Pastels being sold.)

 

[Focal]

I'd say most of "us all" are just watching and taking in what little scraps of facts are thrown our direction. Someday this may all make sense...but probably not tonight.

Just sitting back watching others bleed themselves out.

 

[dustinNMpythons]

And it shouldn't be all of us fighting about what we think, it should be Amir, John, and Clark on here.

 

[radera5]

And it shouldn't be all of us fighting about what we think, it should be Amir, John, and Clark on here.

100%

 

[gotbit1985]

Well I agree 100% that Jonathan and Amir should come and set some things straight, or at least give us all the information they have. And I wasnt talking about any one person on this thread, Clark has people here that are supporting him, I am just voicing my opinion, which is that Jon and Amir arent trying to mislead anyone. Their have been multiple people post pics of their whiteout animals that came from regular citrus parents, there has been noone post pics of what Clarks animals can do besides him. I am not saying there isnt something going on just that there needs to be more breedings done to know exactly how this is working, as does with the citrus gene, Clark still has the right to call his project what he wants as does Amir and Jon. And Just so everyone knows the Citrus I am holding in the pics is so you can get a clear shot of the white scales inside the pattern. The markers I understand on the citruses which I am able to see in all my citrus animals,are 1:The horn typemarkings that come off the back of the head stripe, 2:They have more blushing on their dorsal than most, with purple head coloring and blushing, 3:The white flames out side the pattern. If you look at any of the pics I have posted of my citruses the younger animals have even more defined "horns" than the older animals, so I think the line breeding is bringing out certain traits more andreducing others. The older animals have more o shapes in the dorsal pattern than the younger ones. Dont get me wrong the whiteout thing is out of my grasp, and apparently others, but that does not negate the fact thast citruses are making them. Either way Jon and Amir never claimed that their snakes make the PH washout when I bought any of my snakes from them and this is what the boi was based on them saying their snakes make whashouts. They have told me that Citruses are making some nice animals with extreme blushing, after looking at other pastel combos and what the citrus was making it was an easy choice for me. As far as PH visuals there may be something going on but there are other mojaves with just as much white. Their Pastel washouts look identical to citruses they have no more white, so saying they are visual and the citrus is not makes no sense to me. Both lines are beautiful I just beleive as most of you BOTH lines need more breeding to fully understand them but Clark sells his at higher prices than ive seen Jons listed for, and says Jon is in the wrong for selling his animals for more than a regular pastel. Its not completely understood all involved have said so, so its really the buyers choice whether to get one or not. It can make some amazing animals as we have seen, I guess its just wether its worth it to you, and a personal choice on which line to get.

 

[mountain top]

Mike,

Just to state the facts once again for you because, you seem to have missed a few things in your skimming of the forum.
This thread is about the very serious allegations against Jonathan for the misrepresentation of the genetics of the animals he is selling. He has been accused of selling citrus pastels as citrus pastel whiteouts.
When asked to show proof of how he was able to tell the deference in the two genetics he said that the gene was random and could show up in any citrus but was only carried in the citrus line.
Later on a different forum Amir stated that the genetics of his citrus line had markers that identify them from other lines of pastel (the same line Jonathan is selling as citrus and citrus whiteout pastels.)
Amir said there are genetic markers which clearly show if the snake is or is NOT caring the citrus gene and/or the whiteout gene.
For all involved this is a very important point!
Amir never stated the genetic markers of his citrus gene on this forum. Instead he choose to take to the radio to describe the genetic markers that he said made it clearly visible which animals carried the gene and which ones did not.
Maybe you should have told Amir what the snake he sold you looked like before he described the genetic markers to the rest of the world on the radio.
He claims the mutations you made carry his line of citrus pastel.
Wait! Your snake has none of the markers Amir tells us to look for when identifying his citrus pastel line from other lines of pastel.
Wait! Amir claims your animals also carry his whiteout gene.
Wow, how is this possible? Because as I understand it, you have never purchased a whiteout animal from Amir only citrus pastels.
Wow, you simply got lucky and produced a clutch of super citrus calico whiteouts from a citrus pastel female with NO citrus pastel markers!
How do we know this is even a citrus pastel?
Amir referred to your animals specifically as Super Citrus Pastel Calico WHITEOUTS ( the first ever produced ?)
Again, we come to the fact that Jonathan claimed the genetics of the whiteout gene are random and within the citrus gene.
Amir claims that there are markers that identify which snakes carry the whiteout gene. He also claims that he has even produced sibling snakes that show the markers and carry the whiteout gene independent of the citrus pastel.
Wow, you claim to have made four Super Citrus mutations from a snake that does not even carry the citrus markers that the origin breeder, Amir, claims they should have.
We have three very respected breeders within the Ball Python community involved with the citrus pastel gene. When asked about one single genetic caricature the three of you have come up with very different answers on the same gene. However, no proof as to what you are selling or how to identify it? Amir steps in to clean up Jonathan's mess and you step in and undermine everything that Amir said with one photo.
Wow, you guys should really get together and compare notes on this project.

Best regards,
Clark Tucker
www.powerhousereptiles.com
334 422 4246

Amir said that Mike Bell's extreme calicos ,which are IMHO clearly Washouts, were Super citrus calico whiteouts. All the animals that you folks are posting other than Mike Bells Washout calico clutch and his breeder female which clearly isn't a citrus pastel, are nice pastels but they are not from the Washout mutation. Mike Bell is the man who has the animal that clearly isn't a citrus pastel that made the same calico animals as Clark Tucker did. His founding breeder female isn't a citrus pastel it is a washout mutation. All your citrus pastels are nice animals but they can't produce the visual mutation that Clark Tucker and Mike Bell have because it isn't attached to the citrus gene period.
K. Matthews aka mountain top