Info Johathon at Breeders Circle saying his Citrus Pastel WO makes our Power House WO

[Get Sum]

Great Job!

IMO, Maybe you should have sent that post to PHR in a PM, rather then trying to stir the pot and derail this thread.
I don't see where Clark owes Amir or Jonathan an apology at this time.

This thread is here because PHR has accused Amir and Jonathan of knowingly misrepresenting their Citrus Pastels as being able to produce the PowerHouse Washouts, and flat out lying about the mutation having anything to do with Amirs line of Citrus Pastel.

Amir and Jonathan have contradicted each other as to whether or not a Citrus Pastel has genetic markers that indicate wheter it is also carrying the Whiteout mutation, or not.

Jonathan now refuses to answer any of the questions that have been asked of him, and is hiding behind Amir.

Amir is putting together some PR spin, that he is going to deliver on an upcoming RepileRadio show.

(Why would the "Bush Leaguers" want to do a show with a mass flipper like Amir, that has been flipping the "market crashing" MKR, and PHR animals for years ?
I mean if they hate flippers so badly, why not skip the "middle man," and just have Joe C. on the show.)


Meanwhile, Amir and Jonathan, (as well as a few others,) may very well be breeding Citrus Pastels to the animal(s) that Amir purchased from Mike Bell, (that are identical to the PHR Washout,) in order to mass produce Citrus Pastels that actually do carry the Washout gene, in order to cover up the misrepresentation, and justify jacking the price up on the Citrus Pastels after PHR and Mike Bell produced the first Whiteout / Washout / Whitewash mutations in 2010.
(Eight years after Amir had proven out, and he and others had been working with the Citrus Pastel.)

I guess I should I apologize now ?




Although you may take issue with the way in which they have handled this issue, I don't see how Joe C., or Clark Tucker of PHR, have been anything other then transparent here.

If anything shady is going on with this project, I think it's happening right here in the Sunshine State.

Great Post Clark and great Post Rob! Nicely done! You both did a very nice job in stating the facts, showing the proof, pointing out the "True Markers" and hopefully, putting an end to this thread! After visually seeing examples from both parties, (IMHO) It is clear as day that the Powerhouse "Washout" and Amir's "Citrus Washout" are (2) entirely different mutations and should be represented, sold and valued as such.

 

[Get Sum]

EDIT!

Great Post Clark and great Post Rob! Nicely done! You both did a very nice job in stating the facts, showing the proof, pointing out the "True Markers" and hopefully, putting an end to this thread! After visually seeing examples from both parties, (IMHO) It is clear as day that the Powerhouse "Washout" and Amir's "Citrus Washout" are (2) entirely different mutations and should be represented, sold and valued as such.

EDIT= "Amir's Citrus Whiteout"

 

[Diego Velarde]

(Why would the "Bush Leaguers" want to do a show with a mass flipper like Amir, that has been flipping the "market crashing" MKR, and PHR animals for years ?
I mean if they hate flippers so badly, why not skip the "middle man," and just have Joe C. on the show.)

You're going to attack an entire forum because they're hosting one of the true pioneers in the industry on their Radio show? thats quit a funny statement.
Amir has been accused of flipping... by who again? and where is the proof?

**Edited. Do NOT use this forum to advertise other sites. - WebSlave **

 

[Ed Clark]

You should have an apology for Jonathan and amir or at least post this add in you'r own thred!!!!!!!!!(IMO)

The only apology owed should be from the
lying flipping duo of Jonathan and Amir.Jonathan was caught red handed misrepresenting the bp's he is selling.Amir is just as dirty.

Jonathan now refuses to answer any of the questions that have been asked of him, and is hiding behind Amir.

Amir is putting together some PR spin, that he is going to deliver on an upcoming RepileRadio show.
[/B]

Jonathan refuses to talk about them because he just don't have the knowledge to speak on the subject. Amir is trying to cover his

Clark Tucker has laid out a very convincing case.

 

[Wilomn]

The only apology owed should be from the
lying flipping duo of Jonathan and Amir.Jonathan was caught red handed misrepresenting the bp's he is selling.Amir is just as dirty.



Jonathan refuses to talk about them because he just don't have the knowledge to speak on the subject. Amir is trying to cover his

Clark Tucker has laid out a very convincing case.

If anyone would know, it would be you, wouldn't it mr. clark?

Don't you still have a few unanswered questions you need to take care of before you go playing holier than thou? Aren't there a few people waiting on apologies from you?

None of these guys are really clean in all this, are they?

 

[RJK890]

You're going to attack an entire forum because they're hosting one of the true pioneers in the industry on their Radio show? thats quit a funny statement.
Amir has been accused of flipping... by who again? and where is the proof?

Nice Deflection Diego,
I am not attacking an entire forum.
The internet forum has nothing to do with the booking of guest on the radio show.

I'm not attacking anyone really.
I simply laid out the facts as far as I see them, and invited all parties involved to clarify any misinformation.

The proof is in their silence.

I don't see why the leaders of a forum that claims to hate flippers, market crashers, and scammers, and who's slogan is "If you can't feed it, don't breed it," would want to pay tribute to a guy that has recently been accused of, (and convincingly so at this point,) most of everything that they stand against.

I have been on that forum, and it is what it is.
The online reptile community is only so big, and most of the members there are also members on other forums as well.
Same members, topics, and pictures, often times even copy and pasted, with different rules and enforcers, and different color backgrounds.

As for why the links to that forum are blocked, it is because that forums leaders, as well as many of it's members, took a very public stand against the owner of this site.


That was their choice, right or wrong, and as a result of that outing, several members with dual or multi-forumship were banned from this site, and links to that forum have been blocked.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Great Post Clark and great Post Rob! Nicely done! You both did a very nice job in stating the facts, showing the proof, pointing out the "True Markers" and hopefully, putting an end to this thread! After visually seeing examples from both parties, (IMHO) It is clear as day that the Powerhouse "Washout" and Amir's "Citrus Washout" are (2) entirely different mutations and should be represented, sold and valued as such.

It might be just me, but there's not enough proof to show that either line is the result of genetic mutations. But I may be missing some information.

 

[WebSlave]

That was their choice, right or wrong, and as a result of that outing, several members with dual or multi-forumship were banned from this site, and links to that forum have been blocked.

And as a note, anyone who continues trying to plug that other site on this site is going to find themselves on the outside of this site looking in.

 

[HRoss]

what a load of crap. i just talked to mike bell while looking at many of his citrus pastel crosses. the two animals that produced his whiteout pastel calico were purchased from amir as citrus pastels; a direct quote from mike.

and, even if amir "flipped" an animal, how can you put your own name on a mutation you got from someone else? it is not like that pastel calico came from africa.

howard

 

[Get Sum]

what a load of crap. i just talked to mike bell while looking at many of his citrus pastel crosses. the two animals that produced his whiteout pastel calico were purchased from amir as citrus pastels; a direct quote from mike.

and, even if amir "flipped" an animal, how can you put your own name on a mutation you got from someone else? it is not like that pastel calico came from africa.

howard

Howard, No one here is questioning Mike Bell or his animals. I personally think Mike is a great guy and an excellant snake breeder, his collection of animals would make most people in this hobby very jeolous!

I posted previously that Mike made his whiteout or washout citrus pastel calicos and super Pastels by breeding Citrus x Citrus.

He (Mike Bell) is the only individual that I am aware of that has produced animals that look identical to the ones Clark Tucker produced in 2010.

With the hundreds if not thousands of Citrus pastels out there, do you not find it odd that no other breeder's have been able to replicate the animals that both Mike Bell and Clark made?

As stated previously, The original animal the Clark received as partial trade credit from Amir was not a visual Washout nor was it a citrus pastel calico nor was it produced by Amir.

Clark did not name a mutation that was produced by someone else. He recieved his original animal on October 24th 2008. He made his first line of Washouts in 2010.

 

[HRoss]

i do not find it unreasonable at all considering the calico gene is in play; the snake keeper comes to mind first with a half plus body white super pastel sugar, and a full bodied white pastel calico hatchlings i have seen posted lately as well. i have been following the citrus pastel since 2005 because they were neon lime greenish when i first saw them crossed into the yellow belly. no other pastel yellow belly looks like that, and i have some nice ones.
also there is a striped citrus calico posted in another area recently, guess what striped up like someone mentioned as a marker. even my french pastel sugar has some striping, while not fair to compare because it is a triple ringer so of course it is missing a third of its body pattern.

name more than half a dozen people that have done super citrus pastel breedings since there are so many floating around. i am sure i could have missed some, but i dont think they are out there. I bought my citrus animal for a specific purpose (absolutely not whiteout related) and from a breeder that has not crossed the gene with any other pastel. it is from some of the first produced, and what i consider a fairly pure source. i am not saying the light blushing animals are not nice, but that gene did not pop out of no where.

so are you saying amir got the snake from mike and gave it to morphking? still talking direct lineage. why would mike lie about what parents his came from, which is all i can gather since you are saying mike and joe are the only ones who can produce them.

 

[HRoss]

also, what is with the allegations of jonathan selling fake het pumas? i will admit i have not had time to look at all his ads lately, but the only one i can not identify is the last one sold. and, yes i do have one as a reference point?

i will say i do not know jonathan personally, but i pay attention to the projects i work on. and the ones i have seen posted are legit.

and, please let me say i am not trying to argue in nasty way if that is how it comes off. not my intention; i just have to be to the point because of some internal pain i am dealing with.

 

[Get Sum]

i do not find it unreasonable at all considering the calico gene is in play; the snake keeper comes to mind first with a half plus body white super pastel sugar, and a full bodied white pastel calico hatchlings i have seen posted lately as well. i have been following the citrus pastel since 2005 because they were neon lime greenish when i first saw them crossed into the yellow belly. no other pastel yellow belly looks like that, and i have some nice ones.
also there is a striped citrus calico posted in another area recently, guess what striped up like someone mentioned as a marker. even my french pastel sugar has some striping, while not fair to compare because it is a triple ringer so of course it is missing a third of its body pattern.

name more than half a dozen people that have done super citrus pastel breedings since there are so many floating around. i am sure i could have missed some, but i dont think they are out there. I bought my citrus animal for a specific purpose (absolutely not whiteout related) and from a breeder that has not crossed the gene with any other pastel. it is from some of the first produced, and what i consider a fairly pure source. i am not saying the light blushing animals are not nice, but that gene did not pop out of no where.

so are you saying amir got the snake from mike and gave it to morphking? still talking direct lineage. why would mike lie about what parents his came from, which is all i can gather since you are saying mike and joe are the only ones who can produce them.

I never said Amir got the animal that was given to Clark Tucker from Mike Bell, I said Amir did not produce that animal.

I never even hinted that Mike would lie about anything, I have nothing but good things to say about Mike Bell, Mike is a great guy!

Regarding my comment about hundreds if not thousands of Citrus pastels? I hate to make assumptions or an educated guess, but Amir imported and has been working with the Citrus Pastel for a decade now. I would (assume) that citrus x citrus would have seen each other quite a few times over the last 10 years.

I did say: Could it be possible that one of Mike's citrus pastels was also a carrier of some other gene that may or may not have been visual in his original animal?

I also said: The original pastel calico that Clark recieved from Amir was a very poor example of a pastel calico. His original animal did not display the traits or looks of his visual Washouts.

Is it possible that the siblings of the Washout visuals that Clark has produced may also be carriers of the Washout mutation? Only future breeding attempts will tell for sure!

Fact: Clark has not advertised the siblings to his Washout Line of animals that he produced at higher then usual prices and labeled them (Washout Siblings) I know for a fact I have seen this before from somebody else working with (Whiteouts).

 

[HRoss]

i would say anything is possible with the sibs. i was under the impression that there would be some breeding of sibs (nonpastel) this year or next from multiple sources. would i sell them as possible whiteouts, not without having amir or mike's understanding of the morph. I do believe amir has a grasp on what the markers are. And, the last i chatted with him is that the non vibrant animals are capable of throwing the lighter ones with the super pastel like head, and yellowbelly like flames.

there is another good point you bring up. added genes. possible, in fact i thought about getting a super pastel citrus female to raise up for my boy, but it would have mike's possible extra gene that would skew my results. that does not negate the fact that both parents of mike's were directly from amir.

i really think you are wrong about the number of super breedings. I would love more info, but in the states i can only think of a handful of people that have done it. and, of course i am sure there are a few more that never share their results.

have a good night. i will just have to disagree with you on a few things. that is natural. there are too many what if situations to get a consensus until more breedings are done. the one thing that blows my mind is how morphking used amir's reputation to sell his washouts as citrus pastels for what a year or more before he decided it was his own. now that stinks

 

[Get Sum]

Good Post

Nice Post Howard,

I may be off on the actual number of Citrus Pastels out there, I was simply making an assumption (not factual) considering the length of time that they have been around. (look at when the first spider's were re-produced and look how many are out there now, I have probably produced atleast 40 spiders or spider crosses and I am a small breeder!)

Looking at the fact that Power House Reptiles first advertised their Washout mutations in 2010 as: "Amir's hidden gene line of Whiteouts packs a punch" or something like that! Was because initially, Clark was under the assuption that his Pastel Calico that he recieved from Amir was a citrus pastel calico from Amirs line. Clark, being an honest reputable and good-hearted person wanted to give credit were he thought credit was due!

It was only after conversations with Amir between Clark, Joe C and individuals looking to purchase the animals Clark produced labeling them as: Amir's Whiteouts, did the real truth come out. Amir told Clark and more importantly, individuals looking to purchase Clark's animals that he (Clark) did not have his line of Citrus Pastel and that the animals Clark produced were not his Labeled (Whiteouts!)

That is when Clark started labeling them as his own and he had every right at that point to do so. (Amir refused to take credit, he refused that Clark's animal's were citrus pastel whiteouts) That is how it went down.

If I were to find a hundred dollar bill sitting in my friends driveway and I approached my friend and said: Hey bud, I think I found your money in your driveway $100. If that individual reply's back stating: Nope, I didn't lose any money, it's not mine! Then whose is it? At that point it would be the individual that found it. - Similar situation applies here!

 

[HRoss]

Hey Clark might be the second coming of jesus, but simply put he is morphkings mouthpiece. While i will never talk badly of someone taking a job in this economy he sure picked the biggest piece of trash he could possibly find to shovel snake poop for. So you will have to forgive me for not just taking his word for anything.

have a good one
howard

 

[Get Sum]

Hey Clark might be the second coming of jesus, but simply put he is morphkings mouthpiece. While i will never talk badly of someone taking a job in this economy he sure picked the biggest piece of trash he could possibly find to shovel snake poop for. So you will have to forgive me for not just taking his word for anything.

have a good one
howard

Man, I need to get to bed. Need to get up at 4:30 to catch goggle eyes and fish tomorrow.

But since you appear to be close (or at least in contact with Amir). Do you know who intially was suppose to run (House/ Care for/ Breed and Sell) all of Joe Capone's animals prior to Clark taking over operations? This was not a verbal comunication, there were contracts drafted! It was Amir himself that had worked out an agreement with Joe Capone to do exactly what Clark is doing right now. He was selling Joe's snakes even after the agreement fell through.

If you don't believe me, ask Amir himself. This was in 2007, after all the threads on Capone were posted!

Allright, Have a good night.

 

[Chris Kennard]

By the time you people are done morphing the living crap out of these ridiculously priced animals, they will be missing bladders, genitals and having eyes bulging out of their friggin' heads(or two heads)! What the heck has happened to the reptile industry!!! Ten years from now your unhealthy snakes that are selling for thousands will be worth maybe hundreds. GET A GRIP! You can airbrush your f-ing snakes for alot cheaper!

 

[WebSlave]

By the time you people are done morphing the living crap out of these ridiculously priced animals, they will be missing bladders, genitals and having eyes bulging out of their friggin' heads(or two heads)! What the heck has happened to the reptile industry!!! Ten years from now your unhealthy snakes that are selling for thousands will be worth maybe hundreds. GET A GRIP! You can airbrush your f-ing snakes for alot cheaper!

Well, I guess if no one was BUYING these animals, then there wouldn't be any reason for people to breed them, now would there? So tell me, is there any other marketing niche of reptiles that is more active than ball pythons right now? Not that I am particularly a ball python aficionado, by any means, but it is what it is....

 

[FosterHerpetological]

By the time you people are done morphing the living crap out of these ridiculously priced animals, they will be missing bladders, genitals and having eyes bulging out of their friggin' heads(or two heads)! What the heck has happened to the reptile industry!!! Ten years from now your unhealthy snakes that are selling for thousands will be worth maybe hundreds. GET A GRIP! You can airbrush your f-ing snakes for alot cheaper!

Sometimes your posts are excellent. Then sometimes you make posts like this and Im like...what in the world??? lol