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Baby feeding response in group setting?

R

Robert Walker

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Looking to see if any one has had experience with trying to trigger "better" feeding responses in hatchlings by housing them together versus alone??

Let me clarify...

I'm talking about housing a trouble feeder in with 2 or 3 great feeders. Holding a rodent in the cage and seeing if the trouble feeder "learns" from the great feeders? Holding the rodent at one end of the cage, in a controlled setting, letting the great feeders get all excited, perk up and get ready to eat.

I'm not taking about some crazy free for all with a rodent running around a cage and 3 snakes all going for it.

This multiple hatchling scenario has played out a couple of times because of babies being born faster than I could get cages for them. The trouble eaters started eating when housed with the good feeders.

THE QUESTION: Is what I "believe" I have seen, just a coincidence or does any one have experience with this working??:shrug01:

Thanks in advance everyone and welcome to 2012!
 
hetsnowboa said:
Looking to see if any one has had experience with trying to trigger "better" feeding responses in hatchlings by housing them together versus alone??

Let me clarify...

I'm talking about housing a trouble feeder in with 2 or 3 great feeders. Holding a rodent in the cage and seeing if the trouble feeder "learns" from the great feeders? Holding the rodent at one end of the cage, in a controlled setting, letting the great feeders get all excited, perk up and get ready to eat.

I'm not taking about some crazy free for all with a rodent running around a cage and 3 snakes all going for it.

This multiple hatchling scenario has played out a couple of times because of babies being born faster than I could get cages for them. The trouble eaters started eating when housed with the good feeders.

THE QUESTION: Is what I "believe" I have seen, just a coincidence or does any one have experience with this working??:shrug01:

Thanks in advance everyone and welcome to 2012!
Click to expand...
I notice that when others are eating well and the rats are squealing loudly, that the other snakes perk right up and await their meal, so you might have something, I'm just not sure it's reliable with hatchlings?
 
I know of guys using that method to find the best feeder. I also know of people having snakes get bit by other snakes. I personally just try to feed them seperate and learn every snake. I have found that a couple of my best feeders were really slow starters and worried me. With that said, I think it may be a last resort before assist feeding.
 
All of our trouble feeders have been from hatchlings that were kept together untill after first sheds. We now seperate them after hatching and have had no problems with slow starters.
 
How many have you hatched and seperated immediately Michelle? I'm intrigued by your response, but worry that it may be too small of a control group to really count. Thinking maybe you got lucky with some good eaters.
 
hetsnowboa said:
I'm not taking about some crazy free for all with a rodent running around a cage and 3 snakes all going for it.
Click to expand...

:eek: I JUST had this dream/nightmare, night before last!!! I had dozens of snakes in one big cage/tub/whatever it was, and just kept throwing "food" (not even sure what the "food" was!), and when I saw them attacking each other, I just threw more in!! ...maybe the evening's beverages had something to do with that crazy dream, but you just brought it back to life!! :rofl:

I normally house my hatchlings together until they shed, and then separate them. I still have a few every year that are slow to start, and at least one that I end up having to assist feed. But I've come to accept that as "normal" for BP's (never had the same consistent problem with boas).
 
snakesRkewl said:
I notice that when others are eating well and the rats are squealing loudly, that the other snakes perk right up and await their meal, so you might have something, I'm just not sure it's reliable with hatchlings?
Click to expand...
Agreed, I definitly see this play out in adults getting excited. I'm sure the sudden rodent smell in the air helps this start going. Thank for your thought Jerry.

Randy F said:
I have found that a couple of my best feeders were really slow starters and worried me.
Click to expand...
I hope this plays out with one of mine too. Thanks Randy


TessadasExotics said:
All of our trouble feeders have been from hatchlings that were kept together untill after first sheds. We now seperate them after hatching and have had no problems with slow starters.
Click to expand...

This would be very interesting to see. Like Mike said, on what size scale do you produce? I end up housing the hatchlings together in the incubator until they have had their first shed and then separate them, "but" have not tried separating them immediately, hum. Please do let us know further your experience. Thanks!

MrBig said:
How many have you hatched and seperated immediately Michelle? I'm intrigued by your response, but worry that it may be too small of a control group to really count. Thinking maybe you got lucky with some good eaters.
Click to expand...
Great question Mike!



Matt2979 said:
:eek: I JUST had this dream/nightmare, night before last!!! ...

I normally house my hatchlings together until they shed, and then separate them. I still have a few every year that are slow to start, and at least one that I end up having to assist feed. But I've come to accept that as "normal" for BP's (never had the same consistent problem with boas).
Click to expand...

Matt, my kid asked me why I was laughing right now on the computer, great dream/nightmare! I too think this a BP issue, but trying to see if there is a way to decrease this habit or is it something "I" could be doing better?? Thanks for always responding!


So perhaps to help narrow down the question with a better sequence of events:

1. Hatchlings hatch, housed together until after first shed.
2. After first shed separated to individual cages.

OR, as Michelle mentioned, immediately separate them.

3. After a couple of feedings, determine who is a great feeder and who is slow.
4. Then take a slower feeder and 2 great feeders and put them back together to house and feed for a while, while trying to help the other slow one "learn" from the great feeders.

Any other thought are always welcome and super thanks for all the input thus far!:thumbsup:
 
I personally always leave the babies together in a tub with wet paper towels until their first shed. At that time I seperate them and start feeding. I never try feeding until after that first shed. They go through it very quickly and are already stressed from being hatched. I try and leave them alone to adjust to being out of the egg, they absorbed the sack which is what its there for. After shed I put them in seperate tubs and try with a crawler mouse. I first try off tongs which shows me who the great feeders are, then drop it in the tub and leave alone. I have had little ones eat right away and some take about 3 weeks to eat. I had one that after guessing a month (it was a long time again and my mind is shot!) I assit fed, he turned out to be one of my best all time feeders. I have a little girl right now that her brothers had taken like 3 meals and she had not. Finally after a fourth meal she finally ate her first. Since she has eaten and passed them up.
 
Randy,

Your scenario sounds almost exactly like mine.

Your girl who didn't eat until the 4th feeding, did she eat by herself, or did you need to step in and assist feed?
Thanks
 
she ate by herself. You must remember snakes go off feed sometimes for months on end. Now I do understand this is a new born so that would not be good at all. With that said, I hold the assist feeding stress off for as long as I can. I know some people begin freaking out and jump right in, if it works for you great keep doing it. Like I tell people, its whatever works for you. I imagine if you were a hatchling and someone kept putting things in crawling around you everyday and then forced one down your throat that it would be kinda traumatic. I offer food once a week when I feed all my snakes. I may try twice when I am offering some of my yearlings that just pound food twice a week. Thats it though, no dropping food in everyday checking to see if it ate 5 to 10 times. I know some people think its a joke that animals dont have feeling but every animals care sheet talks about stress. We just lost our female bunny and the hyper male that was really hard to hold just lays there when you pick him up. Is he grieving? Does he know his mate is dead not just off caring for their young? In nature, mom never assist fed a baby so why stress it out wanting it to feed when you think its ready? Just my opinion and everyone has one.
 
Well articulated Randy. My only question is, would it prove to be even less stress full to go into individual cages before the first shed? Michelle thinks she has better feed response ( she very well may as I'm not disputing that) when they are seperated immediately. I feel this could remove the stress of changing tubs right after a shed(stressful) and first feeding ( also stressful) with both being almost back to back. I don't know if it will make a diferance but I plan to try it this year and see.
 
Hey Mike,

I would kinda agree to that but..........! When you first introduce live pinkies, they crawl on the snake which upsets it. I honestly do not know if it is better to have solitude as in the egg, or a group setting that your comfortable with the get use to having things touch you. One could even go as far as saying would it be better to give them a hide right away while separating? This then would bring up the argument, would this make them picky eaters where they will always have to have a hide, therefore also making breeding difficult? I would say with all the variables, you would have to hatch many clutches from the same pairings to find a decisive answer. That goes back to the old saying (that I repeat like a broken record!) what ever works for you. Since most people have very few picky feeders I would just look at ways to get them to eat more than the different ways to house the clutch until first shed.
 
I do introduce hides as soon as they are seperated, don't have any issue with feeding or breeding those who were started with hides. I simply remove them when it's time for feeding or breeding.
 
I think some hatchlings are stubborn because they are offered meals to early. Think about it in the wild, what are the odds that all these hatchlings will find an appropriate sized meal, left alone, after the first week they are hatched? I think most want them to start eating right away, as do I, but I think I might wait an extra week or two this year.

I like the idea of immediately separating them and might try that with a clutch or two and see how it goes, however, most of my hatchlings appear to stay together and are often remain huddled before that first shed. I really wish I could watch the natural behaviors of hatchlings in the wild, to see how long they stay together in the den until they venture.

Everytime I have had to assist feed, it only took one time and they caught on, so as the OP mentioned, I think it's more of a learning process and his suggestion would be worth trying. I have one female now that has been assist fed probably six times. She has no clue what to do, although, the closest she has been is with an ASF pup. She will "head butt" the ASF instead of striking (again learning trait), almost coming down on it as if she is striking but much slower. She will not do this with any other rodent but an ASF.

Robert, I will give this a shot (your theory) in a few hours when I get home. I still have another hatchling from that clutch that is well established and eating.
 
I've done it both ways and never noticed a difference. Mind you, I never kept any strict logs to compare. I just recently (over the past 2 seasons) realized that it was easier to keep the clutch together in a moist tub until they shed.

Those that don't feed on their own right away are most likely a few of the many that would never make it in the wild.
 
Thanks everyone for all the helpful insight and sharing your experiences on this subject.

Like, Nick, this morning I put a poor eater (assist fed 4 times now) in with 3 super strong eaters. I will give them 5-6 days alone and go and see how things play out.

The trouble snake in question, used to strike at rodents (not eat) before when she was in a group setting. I then got the idea of moving the hatclings to their own cages and then she completely stopped and I have had to since assist feed her.

Like Matt said, these might be the snakes that simply fail to thrive in the wild, but in a controlled environment like we all have our snakes there have to be additional tricks to helping them out.

Thanks again everyone, hopefully we are all getting some thing from the conversation thus far.
 
just remember to feed all the good feeders before you leave something in for her. Watch them all eat while she takes it in. You will never know in a group setting if she actually ate it depending on size of meal and how long you check to see if there is still a buldge.
 
Good point,

Yah, in the group setting scenario, I am introducing a live rodent at the opposite end of the cage still on tongs, by the tail. I am allowing the rodent's squirming to help get everyone perked up ready to eat.

Once I have everyone's attention, hopefully the poor eater as well, I then stun the rodent and feed it off tongs one by one in a controlled manner to each snake. Once a single snake has bit and coiled the stunned rodent, I remove it from the housing cage into a holding cage, working my way through the group to make sure who has and has not eaten and avoiding the possible free for all or like you mentioned..."the who ate it?" question afterwards.
 
Here's what I just did; I tried to offer a live pink to the non-eater. She started to seem slightly interested and then left it alone and moved on.

Then, I the placed the non-eater across from a 150g good-eating sibling in a 12"x12" tub. The non-eater watched the good-eater as I introduced a pinky and the good-eater took the pinky. She coiled and I left them alone until the non-eater was disinterested and started squirming around.

I then placed the non-eater back in her tub with another pinky and left her alone. I'll post back tomorrow if the pinky is gone.
 
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