what would you get 66% BWC x Motley het albino

[MurdocksReptiles]

now correct me wherever im wrong.
but from my understanding bwc ( boa woman caramels ) are sorta like T+
so with that said does that mean they wouldnt be compatible to breed with boas of the kahl strain? if there not compatible with kahl strain ignore further questions..

if you can breed with kahl strain,
what might the litter have in it from a

66% BWC male ( born from Het BWC x Jungle Het BWC )
X
Motley 66% Het Albino female( born from DH Sunglow x Motley DH Sunglow )

the female i aready have, im just looking for something to raise up and breed with her. If this BWC isnt the one, then im open to suggestions on what would make nice litters with her?

 

[mysticdiva]

BWC is not compatible with Kahl, they are different forms of albino.

If you're wanting to prove your motley girl, you would need a male that has the Kahl gene somewhere.

 

[Mainely Boas]

Let's presume that both possible hets (eventually) prove out.

Half the litter will be Motleys, half normal.

Half of all babies will be het for BWC, but you can't tell which ones.

Half of all babies will be het for Kahl albino, but you can't tell which ones.

Half of the babies will be het for nothing.

A quarter of the babies will be het for both, but you can't tell which ones (this 1/4 is a part of the above mentioned hets; not in additional to them).

These are average outcomes that can be expected. Obviously, because these are only possible hets, if either or both prove to NOT be hets, you have to eliminate those numbers. If neither are really hets, you just make half motleys, half normals.

This seems like a wasteful breeding. Because you can't identify what genes they may or may not be carrying, you can't give a buyer any confidence in what s/he is getting. You'd be way better off getting 100% het BWC (or a visual BWC), and 100% Kahl Albino (or a visual albino) and prove out the genes of these possible hets.

 

[jmwboas]

Ken, The babies would be possible hets. The animals that hes mentioned are only 66% possible het for those genes. Without proving out either first, you don't know if they even carry those genes. If they did, each baby would have 50% chance of carrying the each gene. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I have been slacking on my genetics reading lately.

 

[Mainely Boas]

Ken, The babies would be possible hets. The animals that hes mentioned are only 66% possible het for those genes. Without proving out either first, you don't know if they even carry those genes. If they did, each baby would have 50% chance of carrying the each gene. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I have been slacking on my genetics reading lately.

That's exactly what I said. If the poss hets prove out to be actual hets, half the offspring would then be hets, but you can't tell which ones. In other words, 50% pos het.

The first line of my post: "Let's presume that both possible hets (eventually) prove out."

Later on: "If neither are really hets, you just make half motleys, half normals."

 

[jmwboas]

My bad Ken, I reread it and it made sense now. Maybe the coffee just wasn't doing it this morning! Sorry about that.

 

[MurdocksReptiles]

so they are or arent compatible? got 2 different answers it seems.

so because both of them are only 66% hets
you think there both more of pet boas then breeding boas?
maybe ill need a new female then as well?

this would be my first breeding so im really not concerned with coming out with 1000$ snakes, i just want experience.

then maybe ill drop a couple thousand on a breed-able pair

 

[Mainely Boas]

My bad Ken, I reread it and it made sense now. Maybe the coffee just wasn't doing it this morning! Sorry about that.

No problem at all. I try to stay away from the common terms 66% het, 50% het, etc., as they can be misleading. As we both clearly understand, it is either heterozygous or it isn't. The percentage of probability is somewhat useful, but can also confuse folks who are new to recessive genetics.

I posted "het Sterlings" for sale and more than one person contacted me to find out "what percent het?" No percent. They are heterozygous for Sterling patternless. I don't even like to call them 100% het, because someone could infer that an animal can be partially heterozygous.

Did you ever think, when you were flipping over plywood looking for garter snakes as a kid that it would lead to discussions of recessive genes, punnet squares, etc.? I certainly didn't.

 

[Mainely Boas]

They are definitely not compatible, regardless of those percentages. Kahl albino and BWC are two different genotypes. You need each parent to be carrying a copy of the same recessive gene to produce animals with the visual trait (phenotype).

As for "experience," the experience will be the same with desirable animals. When you make mutts, you have a hard time getting rid of them and you just dilute an already weak market. You can pick up a Kahl for a few hundred dollars. A BWC is going to be more (pardon the pun).

so they are or arent compatible? got 2 different answers it seems.

so because both of them are only 66% hets
you think there both more of pet boas then breeding boas?
maybe ill need a new female then as well?

this would be my first breeding so im really not concerned with coming out with 1000$ snakes, i just want experience.

then maybe ill drop a couple thousand on a breed-able pair

 

[MurdocksReptiles]

Did you ever think, when you were flipping over plywood looking for garter snakes as a kid that it would lead to discussions of recessive genes, punnet squares, etc.? I certainly didn't.

im just making the transition now.
trying to learn more bout the genetics and such.

speaking of which.
if you dont mind answering, how would you be able to tell that a snake is 66% het or 50% het?

or is it more of a guess based of the percentages of what the litter should contain.?

any links on all this would be apprieciated as well.

 

[MurdocksReptiles]

They are definitely not compatible, regardless of those percentages. Kahl albino and BWC are two different genotypes. You need each parent to be carrying a copy of the same recessive gene to produce animals with the visual trait (phenotype).

As for "experience," the experience will be the same with desirable animals. When you make mutts, you have a hard time getting rid of them and you just dilute an already weak market. You can pick up a Kahl for a few hundred dollars. A BWC is going to be more (pardon the pun).

so with that said you believe both of these are more pet snakes then breeding snakes because they are only 66% probable hets.?

in your opinion you would get 2 snakes that are 100% het for something to breed?

 

[MurdocksReptiles]

Oh and also how can you tell there 66% het? Is there anything in the pictures I provided that you can point out as a sign of het??

 

[Mainely Boas]

how would you be able to tell that a snake is 66% het or 50% het?

or is it more of a guess based of the percentages of what the litter should contain.?

Excellent question. I'm going to use Kahl albino for this example (simple recessive gene).

OK, DNA in on a double helix, and each parent contributes half to the with DNA of each offspring. So, if you breed an actual het Kahl to a normal, the het contributes either an albino gene or a normal gene. The normal can only contribute a normal gene. So that means that every baby born caries either two normal genes (a normal boa) or one normal gen and one Kahl albino gene (a het for Kahl boa). But, since you can't tell by looking, we say it's a 50% het Kahl, meaning 1:2 are heterozygous (gene carriers).

If we breed a het to a het, 1/4 gets an albino gene from each parent and is a visual albino. 2/4 get 1 albino gene and one normal gene (het), and 1/4 get 2 normal genes (normal). So, 3:4 animals look normal (the hets and the normals), but 2 out of every 3 of the normal looking ones (66%) are actually hets, we say that they are 66% het.

Remember, it either is heterozygous, or it is not. The percentage only refers to the probability of it being a het based on what kind of parents it had.

If you breed a visual albino to a normal, all the off spring will be hets, because the visual albino has 2 albino genes, and must contribute one to the offspring.

Hope that helps. Also, google "recessive genes." and read, read, read.

 

[Mainely Boas]

so with that said you believe both of these are more pet snakes then breeding snakes because they are only 66% probable hets.?

in your opinion you would get 2 snakes that are 100% het for something to breed?

I would get a visual, because you're rolling the dice with possible hets. If they prove out, you're fine. If not, you have virtually worthless mutts that are hard to get rid of. Before you breed, you have to ask yourself, "Am I ready to house and feed 25 boas indefinitely if they don't sell?"

By breeding a visual to what you have, even if the pos het doesn't prove out, you are making definite hets.

 

[MurdocksReptiles]

Excellent question. I'm going to use Kahl albino for this example (simple recessive gene).

OK, DNA in on a double helix, and each parent contributes half to the with DNA of each offspring. So, if you breed an actual het Kahl to a normal, the het contributes either an albino gene or a normal gene. The normal can only contribute a normal gene. So that means that every baby born caries either two normal genes (a normal boa) or one normal gen and one Kahl albino gene (a het for Kahl boa). But, since you can't tell by looking, we say it's a 50% het Kahl, meaning 1:2 are heterozygous (gene carriers).

If we breed a het to a het, 1/4 gets an albino gene from each parent and is a visual albino. 2/4 get 1 albino gene and one normal gene (het), and 1/4 get 2 normal genes (normal). So, 3:4 animals look normal (the hets and the normals), but 2 out of every 3 of the normal looking ones (66%) are actually hets, we say that they are 66% het.

Remember, it either is heterozygous, or it is not. The percentage only refers to the probability of it being a het based on what kind of parents it had.

If you breed a visual albino to a normal, all the off spring will be hets, because the visual albino has 2 albino genes, and must contribute one to the offspring.

Hope that helps. Also, google "recessive genes." and read, read, read.

that definitely helps

can you help me to figure out my motley. and how to prove its 66% possible het and what is it possibly het for?

what would the litter have produced from DH Sunglow x Motley DH Sunglow

and by DH sunglow what are the two things its het for??

 

[MurdocksReptiles]

I would get a visual, because you're rolling the dice with possible hets. If they prove out, you're fine. If not, you have virtually worthless mutts that are hard to get rid of. Before you breed, you have to ask yourself, "Am I ready to house and feed 25 boas indefinitely if they don't sell?"

By breeding a visual to what you have, even if the pos het doesn't prove out, you are making definite hets.

im sure this is another fairly stupid question.
but what exactly do you mean by visuals?

would these be visuals .link.

if yes would they work well with my female.?
and then from the litter i would be able to determine if my female is het or not??

 

[mysticdiva]

This page helped me a lot when I was starting out:
http://www.freewebs.com/chadhornereptiles/boagenetics.htm

DH sunglow is a hypo het albino (the double coming from the two genes, hypo and albino).

Yes, the sunglows in that link are visuals. They visually represent the gene (an albino is a visual, a het is not). If you bred a sunglow to your motley, you would be able to prove if she's het or not. If you get albinos and sunglows in the litter, she's a het. If you don't get any, then she's not het, but the whole litter would be definitely het albino since the one parent is a visual.

I hope this all makes sense, it did in my head, lol.

 

[MurdocksReptiles]

This page helped me a lot when I was starting out:
http://www.freewebs.com/chadhornereptiles/boagenetics.htm

DH sunglow is a hypo het albino (the double coming from the two genes, hypo and albino).

Yes, the sunglows in that link are visuals. They visually represent the gene (an albino is a visual, a het is not). If you bred a sunglow to your motley, you would be able to prove if she's het or not. If you get albinos and sunglows in the litter, she's a het. If you don't get any, then she's not het, but the whole litter would be definitely het albino since the one parent is a visual.

I hope this all makes sense, it did in my head, lol.

ya i think im starting to catch on.
thanks for the link.

 

[MurdocksReptiles]

so dh sunglow is het for albino and het for hypo.
so its dna is half albino half hypo?
so then how do you get a dh sunglow motley?
thats 3 traits isnt it?

and then im still slightly confused on how you can take two DH sunglows one having a motley trait and end up with a snake on showing the motley trait and being 66% het for albino.

I really appreciate all the knowledge you guys are sharing!!

 

[MurdocksReptiles]

and does sunglow basically mean its double het?

like saying dh sunglow vs sunglow? is there a difference?
or is adding dh in front of sunglow kind of redundant?