Bad Guy Jon/Michael Wengloski - Inaccurate animal descriptions

[HyderHouseHerps]

I just purchased 2 snakes from this guy (see ad description in the screen shot). Upon arrival, both snakes were packed in pillowcases with no insulation, just paper packing material in the box which, was full of air holes. The male weighed 250 grams, female 2100 grams. Female has several scars that appear to be healed rat bites, and a couple of fresh ones. What concerned me the most is this large abdominal scar that appears to be a burn scar. As you can see in my emails, none of this was disclosed prior to the sale, even when I asked if they had ever had any health issues. I was also not happy with the weight of the male being grossly overstated at 450g.
I just wanted to warn any future purchasers, but hopefully he is getting out of the hobby as he didn't have much else listed for sale. Sorry for the crappy iphone pics in advance.

Emails:



Yes i can send them out wednesday for thursday arrival.

------------------------------
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 1:28 PM EDT Cindy Hyder wrote:

>Jon
>Can you hold them for wednesday shipping? I work all day wednesday but
>thursday im off at noon. Let me know if that will work. Thanks Cindy
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Aug 6, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Jon Wengloski <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Cindy, I received payment. The snakes will be shipped out tommorow
>> with Wednesday delivery as I do not have Monday pickup scheduled.
>> Thank you. -Jon


>> Paypal @ [email protected] is best. I also could accept money order if that's all you can do.

From: Cindy Hyder <[email protected]>
To: 'Jon Wengloski' <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2012 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: Bp sale

Thanks. I would like to go ahead and purchase them from you. What types of payment can you accept?


Cindy Hyder
Hyder House Herps, LLC
www.hyderhouseherps.com

>> From: Cindy Hyder <[email protected]>
>> To: 'Jon Wengloski' <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2012 8:12 PM
>> Subject: RE: Bp sale
>>
>> Thanks. I would like to go ahead and purchase them from you. What types of payment can you accept?
>>
>>
>> Cindy Hyder
>> Hyder House Herps, LLC
>> www.hyderhouseherps.com
>>
>> From: Jon Wengloski [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 4:08 PM
>> To: Cindy Hyder
>> Subject: Re: Bp sale
>>
>> Not since I have had them and not ever to my knowledge. I have had them for about 7 months each so far and they're great. She has never been bred before to my knowledge. Definitely not in past year or two.
>>
>>
>> From: Cindy Hyder <[email protected]>
>> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2012 1:54 PM
>> Subject: Bp sale
>>
>> Hi I'm interested in your pair of bps for sale. Has your female ever bred before? And have they had any health issues in the past or currently?
>> Thanks, Cindy
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone

 

[Durante]

Sorry you did not get what you thought you were buying. I was just curious if you advised the seller that you were not please to see if maybe you could get your money back or if the seller aware of this post? I looked up the name & it seems like there are 2 accounts for Jon Wengloski, I guess one is old & no longer used...

Is this the ad he posted for a Pinstripe & Spider you purchased the snakes from? http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318516 It almost looks like the spider in the ad is different then the last photo displaying the scares. I'm more into boas then balls but I'm sure a few more knowledgeable folks will jump in. Sorry again & I hope it get worked out for everyone in the end.

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

Sorry, no i purchased the normal female and the pinstripe together. I did email him right away so he would know I was displeased. I did not tell him about this post as I was awaiting his reply but so far there has been none.

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

His reply

I was off about 200grams on each snake I see which is not bad for a guestimate. I do apologize for that poor guestimate but in my ad, I clearly stated that it was not exact. I sold you a normal female that is of breeding weight and age. Not sure where the scar came from as it was from before I had her and was under the impression most people wouldn't care about a scar on a normal female as I did not myself. What I am disappointed about is that the shipping on these cost me $100 to your location which was a shock to me. Although the female was of decent weight I guess I can see why it was so high. So essentially you got these snakes for around $85 each. Don't think the scar will effect her in breeding. -Jon

From: Cindy Hyder <[email protected]>
To: Jon Wengloski <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Bp sale

Jon
The snakes arrived on time and are doing ok in their new home. The male was only 250 grams, and the female 2100. What concerns me more is the large scar on the female's abdomen. Is this a burn scar or something else? My intent was to breed her but i want to make sure this isn't something that is going to cause a problem since its in ovary area. Im pretty disappointed at the lack of accurate details given prior to the sale. But since they're already here I'd just like as many details as you can give me about the scar.

Thanks
Cindy

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

my reply (hopefully my last email since I have nothing further to say)

Since I don’t like to risk the health or life of an animal, I will not be breeding her, so I have lost money on this as well. You also included the shipping at your own will, so I have no responsibility in that. If I had just wanted to go out an purchase cheap snakes, I would’ve gone to craigslist. I was looking for another breeding female in good health, which is why I asked about previous health issues (that includes burns whether or not is happened in your care). If there is damage in any of the lower lying tissues of this snakes abdomen, she may very well become egg bound if I breed her. She also has several smaller scars as well as an unhealed wound that appears to be a rat bite.
For future reference, most responsible breeders DO care about scars because it indicates a previous injury, like in this case, that may interfere with breeding plans and/or exhibit animals. You can justify it however you like, as I am not asking for any action on your part. I just wanted you to know that these things DO matter and if you intend to sell more snakes, you should disclose this type of information. Also when you ship animals, it is fed ex policy to use an insulated container (Styrofoam liner) and it is in the best interest of the animals.


Cindy Hyder
Hyder House Herps, LLC
www.hyderhouseherps.com

 

[ReptileZone1]

Hi - first negative BOI thread, oww.

To clarify, I am Jon, so not sure why you included the name of the individual who has the shipping account and printed the label, but OK. Careful to not post uninvolved parties who were not privy to everything else that has gone on. I assume your intent to make me seem as if I am fronting two different names? My name is labeled on every e-mail I have sent and I try to "sign" most of them. You know who I am.

Christopher(Durante) previous poster , not sure what you're intent is but when you say "It almost looks like the spider in the ad is different then the last photo displaying the scares." I am very confused because the last photo she posted is clearly of a normal ball python and not a spider at all. But if you are insinuating I did a bait and switch on her you are well off base sir and I will take offense. I would like to chock it up to you just being grossly confused and call it a day. Thank you for your participation though in the BOI forum it's folks like you that make it a success.

Next.

I appreciate your patience in letting me address your concerns to you via e-mail before taking this to the BOI. I received your e-mail at 1721hrs and not sure when you posted this on the BOI as my times are off, but I started receiving e-mails from site members alerting me to this thread at 1734hrs which is 13 minutes after I received your e-mail. So I take offense when you say "I have been awaiting his reply but so far there has been none"sic. I was at work.

I have an issue in regards to my estimated weights. In the ad I state that I am not exact on weights and have NO way to get you an exact weight and I was able to supply you with my best guestimate. So as to why you would be upset I was off 200grams on an estimate is honestly a bit of a surprise to me. Lastly, I did apologize for the poor guestimate as evident in my e-mail but I was forthwright in my ad and I am not sure how you can justifiably gig me for that.


You cite Fedex policy for some reason(see next paragraph). I shipped UPS.

It is clear to me you are now reaching very far to come up with negatives. Shame on you for that. I am no detective but your last e-mail to me has "I'm doctoring this up for the BOI" all over it, and be aware others on here will see that as well. You clearly tailored that e-mail for the BOI. This is affirmed to me by your hasty BOI post soon after that e-mail was sent(less than 13 minutes I believe). Although backhanded, I appreciate your words in there that state how I should carry on "for future reference" and how it all pertains to the future of the animal as it shows you are a very forward looking progressive reptile breeder. Kudos for that. Take note forum.

I appreciate your kind words of "hopefully he is getting out of the hobby". That was a bit of a zinger, as you intended it to be. I have been a site member here since early 2005. I have been in this hobby to varying extents throughout my time and have nothing but positive references. No reason for the harsh words, don't let your emotions show your negative side.

The scar(s?)
You state in your e-mail you are concerned about "A" scar. Since that e-mail apparently they have multiplied. The fresh rat bite scars you speak of are not possible as she has been on pre-killed majority of time I have had her. Like I said before, don't reach too far out with your complaints because that one is way off base. I did not contest that there is a scar and would admit it didn't cross my mind when you asked about "health issues" as it doesn't effect her health at all.



Thank you -Jon

 

[scaledverts]

You cite Fedex policy for some reason(see next paragraph). I shipped UPS.

Hmm, this is interesting. How did you get permission to ship snakes via UPS?

 

[ReptileZone1]

Kyle, was unaware of that as I am new to snakes. Thank you for the heads up I just looked it up on UPS website.

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

Jon,

Had you sent me tracking info, I would have known what shipper you were using. Michael is the name on the account, and so that is the person who shipped me the box. I assumed it was either an associate, or one of your names (first, middle, etc.) Either way, It doesn't matter because it's on the box in the SHIPPER section.

Also, I sent my reply as I sat in the doctor's office at about 1:20PM CST (the time zone I am in) NOT 13 minutes before posting my thread. (Do you need to see my reciept from me paying my copay also?) I waited several hours so I don't know what time you are going by.

I stated nothing but facts in my emails and here so I don't have to "reach" for anything... I learned my lesson buying from someone who obviously is inexperienced in shipping for and breeding snakes. Which I assumed by your trader rating and good guy thread, wouldn't be an issue- guess I was fooled. I will admit that.

The pinstripe's weight- Really? 250 and 450 grams is small inaccuracy? That's almost HALF his weight. That is not something that could be a discrepency in a meal. That is enough weight that this could be a 2012 or a 2011.

I feel ripped off. That upsets me because I don't make a lot of money. Is that not understandable? Of course I would not want someone else to feel this way and want to warn them about my experience. I do not like posting BOI threads and I don't post a bad guy thread for every negative buying experience I have. And trust me, I've had several.
But I would have appreciated, before this transaction, knowing how these snakes would be shipped, and the condition they were prior to that. I would not have purchased these knowing their current condition. And yes, there is more than one scar- photos to come.

It's pretty obvious you haven't been in this hobby very long both by your discrepencies and assumptions about what people "care about" (i.e. scars) and your shipping methods. Whether you admit it or not- these are the facts and I don't feel I should be having to defend myself.

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

PHOTOS

Here are the first 4 photos: 1 of the whole female normal BP, Then 2 photos of the large abdominal scar, and a smaller scar. There are more photos to come but I've reached the max in this post.

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

MORE PHOTOS

Here are the remaining scar photos. The large one that appears red looked fresh to me, but it appears to be healed, however the scales are still pretty soft so I imagine this one is the newest.

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

URI's

Also thought you'd like to know both snakes now have URIs, in fact the female has pneumonia...she's gurgling in this photo. I suppose you are going to try and say that just developed also. (And my other 30 snakes are not sick.)

 

[Skanakis]

damn....the belly scar...is definitely worth mentioning bro. The little scars up top....eh i myself can excuse but that belly scar man....thats rough right there. And then the one that LOOKS fresh. Thats not just a bite here and there. I myself can excuse a scar here and there since i personally do feed live. But 3 of those scars would get me bent also. Hope you guys work it out. Oh and for the guesstamit....buy a scale maaaaaaaaaaaaan.

 

[KORBIN5895]

In the ad I state that I am not exact on weights and have NO way to get you an exact weight and I was able to supply you with my best guestimate. So as to why you would be upset I was off 200grams on an estimate is honestly a bit of a surprise to me. Lastly, I did apologize for the poor guestimate as evident in my e-mail but I was forthwright in my ad and I am not sure how you can justifiably gig me for that.

The scar(s?)
You state in your e-mail you are concerned about "A" scar. Since that e-mail apparently they have multiplied. The fresh rat bite scars you speak of are not possible as she has been on pre-killed majority of time I have had her. Like I said before, don't reach too far out with your complaints because that one is way off base. I did not contest that there is a scar and would admit it didn't cross my mind when you asked about "health issues" as it doesn't effect her health at all.



Thank you -Jon

First off your guesstimate was off by almost 50% of the body weight! That's like guessing the female to have weighed 4500g when she only weighs 2000g!

Now let's discuss the words in bold. I find it very odd that the screen shot she provided shows her eating live yet you claims she was on frozen. Very strange indeed. Did you poke this snake with an ice pic for fun? Is that how you get your jollies? If not how else are those possible? Did she do it just to get pics?

It seems it has taken 7 years for you to turn into "one of them". Its really sad you threw away a 7 year rep of being a decent guu just for an $85 dollar normal royal.

Thanks op for shedding the light on this.

 

[Durante]

Christopher(Durante) previous poster , not sure what you're intent is but when you say "It almost looks like the spider in the ad is different then the last photo displaying the scares." I am very confused because the last photo she posted is clearly of a normal ball python and not a spider at all. But if you are insinuating I did a bait and switch on her you are well off base sir and I will take offense. I would like to chock it up to you just being grossly confused and call it a day. Thank you for your participation though in the BOI forum it's folks like you that make it a success.

Jon, my intent was to figure out the snakes that were purchased by the poster since he didn't advise exactly what two snake he bought from you. I never hinted at a swap & switch & actually thought the poster may have posted a wrong photo. I dont believe my comment was off-based. I placed no blame on anyone & gave you more credit/benefit of doubt then you deserved by wanting to know if you were advised of the thread, so you could provide your side of the story. It wasn't my intention but it's your right to take offense, just as its my right to care less about your feelings. Considering this thread is in regards to your business practices & was posted by your customer you may want to focus more on there feelings then your own in the future. Again, good luck to all parties I hope you can get some answers & come to a resolution.

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

I feel terrible for this animal right now because she is very sick and struggling to breathe. We are going to the vet today and I have experience treating RI's but she's pretty severe. I really think this probably developed during shipping, so I'm not accusing the seller of selling me "sick" snakes. But I am pretty sure they got really dry in that box.

I'm already invested in this and have no intentions of returning these snakes or asking for any sort of money back, etc. I just wanted to make that clear. At this point I am over the money, I just want them to be healthy. I also want to apologize if I was inappropriately "snippy" but I'm upset about this situation.

 

[wyldwurm]

I also want to apologize if I was inappropriately "snippy" but I'm upset about this situation.

I don't think that I would have been as civil as you are being had I received animals as misrepresented as you have.
Not only were you sent sub-par animals when you were expecting breeding quality, now you are going to have the additional expense of a veterinary bill because of HIS complete negligence in regards to the health of these animals and lack of research to ship a live snake.
You deserve a full refund. It is apparent, to me, that this seller had very little regard for these animals. I sincerely hope this guy refunds your money as a gesture of good faith.

 

[Discojaguar]

just my $.02,

This is what I would expect from a craig's list sale, not a breeder with an up till now decent reputation.

Honestly, a gram scale is what maybe 20$ on amazon? Not having one is something that's excusable for people who have one or two snakes as pets, not a "breeder".

That belly scar looks awful, and I would be less civil than the OP if it hadn't been disclosed.

 

[ReptileZone1]

Never claimed to be a breeder. Just a hobbyist so this idea that I
am some big time breeder is not true. The first snakes I purchased
Were about 8 months ago and have since sold them as I am not
Interested in snakes. Im afraid once youre posted on here it becomes a free for all for everyone on the forum to take shots at you. I'll be refunding her a portion of what she paid which was honestly very little. The URIs you say they have must have developed during shipping like you said as they were fine here.


To the person alluding to the screen shot of me saying they ate live. That was a copy and pasted ad from awhile ago and have her eating a mix of pk and live which is why I said a majority of the time not all. As for me poking the snake with a stick? Im confused. Theres just no way for me to " win " this.

REFUNDING NOW

 

[ReptileZone1]

So a messup on the refunding now part. I am unavailable to do so right now, but even though you said you do not require one I feel refunding you a part is appropriate.