Info Tammy & Kevin-Business and morals? Enough is enough

[zorro]

I didn’t want this to come to the BOI but they posted a thread on cs.com under the General Chit-Chat section. Also known as exar15xe and kitten0304 on cs.com. They didn’t not mention my name but said everything else (according to their side of the story). Today I found out through Private Messages they were giving out my name and so I wanted to give my side of this story. As many of you know who have had dealings with me know that I bend over backwards to make sure they were happy with their purchase.
I think it was back in 2011 they contacted me to purchase this Tessera het Bloodred female. They didn’t have the money upfront so after I sent the snake they continued to make monthly payments. To make a long story short she wouldn’t breed for them and questioned me on ways to remedy this. This summer after another unsuccessful breeding year, they demanded a full refund. I explained that I had no control over whether she or any other reptile would ever breed. No reptile breeder would ever guarantee that a male or female would ever breed since the breeder has no control over what conditions exist at the snake’s new home.
Please read this, their thread and responses and you be the judge!!!
During all of this Kevin did find a picture of her with eggs of mine that I had posted and asked if that was her. I am guilty of not keeping records of clutches that don’t hatch but thought that was her. She was with eggs in that pic but none of the eggs ever hatched. Here is the link:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109761
John Finsterwald
ColoradoCorns

 

[zorro]

This is the Private Message that she sent to a member that inquired who it was that “Kitten0304” was talking about in their thread. It would be very laughable if it wasn’t so hurtful to me. She says that this snake upset her males so bad that they wouldn’t breed with any other females, REALLY!!
At the time that they demanded a full refund this spring, I was trying to find a bloodred tessera hatchling for them because I felt so bad about this but couldn’t find one.
The PM when a member asked who they were talking about:
Originally Posted by kitten0304
Quote:
Well I will because I feel like ppl do have the right to know, but your not gonna like it. It was zorro, from Colorado corns. The short of it was I requested a specific type adult for breeding purposes, he said he had the perfect one ready for breeding and healthy. I paid about 5paychecks for it. It wouldn't breed. I questioned him on it. He said he never bred her before but couldn't understand what the problem was. I chalked it up to shipping, new home stress. Told him we would try again next yr and hope it worked, he agreed. Later on come to find out (with photo proof) he bred her before, and she slugged out. Following yr she never cycled and was super aggressive with all males placed with her, causing them to be fearful of other females ( which I know is extremely weird) but ruined other projects bc of it too. I finally asked to send him back the snake for a refund I didn't ask for anything else and he not only refused but got quite mean and aggressive to us for asking. We would have been producing tessera bloods last yr and pied ones this yr if not for all of this, and I known with breeding things happen so I will never get back all the money lost or time but he is wrong for lying and trying to be sneaky.
In this PM they said I lied but I never did, however they have posted an ad on both forums trying to sell this snake but neglected to mention that they were unable to breed this snake for the past two years. I would not say that is completely honest.
John Finsterwald
ColoradoCorns

 

[Dennis Hultman]

That was a interesting read on the chitchat forum. Particularly her thoughts that it would cause her grief to post here because people aren't going to like it.

The only grief she should expect is if people determine she was just unlucky in her breeding efforts then blaming the seller for her troubles.

I hope she takes heed of the members advise and comes prepared to make a strong case.

The way I read what has transpired, the only way you would be on the hook for anything is if you knowingly sold a animal that was incapable of breeding.

I think that is going to be a high hurdle to get over without solid evidence.

 

[Terri Bienkowski]

I’ve been breeding reptiles for a long time now and the one thing that I can say without hesitation is, that it is an inexact science. I have witnessed things that defy explanation and rattle my commitment to the hobby. Thousands of dollars spent and untallied hours wasted on breeding projects that just don’t pan out. Slugs, eggs that just won’t hatch, mold, incubator failure, anorexia, refusal by both males and females to breed, never getting a break on the odds, tons of DIEs, kinks, mysterious deaths and unwanted Hets to name just a few. It is, at best, a crapshoot.
That’s what we buy into when we choose to make a hobby out of keeping and breeding animals. I never know if an animal I spend hard earned money on will live, let alone breed and produce live offspring. And anyone who does this knows that there are a million things that can go wrong even after an animal is hatched. Bottom line, there are NO guarantees.
I’ve known and done business with John for a lot of years. I know he tries very hard to make sure buyers are happy with animals they get from him. I also know that he is a painfully truthful person and extremely generous. Characteristics that are not always helpful in business. Lol I don’t believe that he deliberately tried to deceive anyone in this transaction. It’s just the luck of the draw that this particular animal has, as of now, not bred successfully. I’ve had females that never bred for me but when I sent them to a friend they bred and produced healthy offspring right from the get go. I don’t see how John can be held responsible for whether an animal breeds successfully. There are too many variables that are out of his control. If we all expected to be able to hold a seller responsible for the life and breeding success of every animal sold the hobby would cease to exist.


Terri

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Ok wait... so if I buy a female snake from someone, and then 2 or 3 years from now, she doesn't breed... I should expect a full refund? What???

Wow that is such an amazing guarantee!


Okay in all seriousness though... that's complete horse poo. Anyone who has that kind of expectations from their animals and people they buy from has their head buried in the sand. They thought that all of their breeding was going to go exactly as planned... and that was their biggest mistake. Now that they realize it isn't going to work out like they had hoped, they need to throw the blame SOMEWHERE.

Actually if you ended up locating a picture of her with some eggs... that actually proves that she is capable of getting farther in the breeding process than they were able to get her to since they claim that she rejects males and is aggressive. It's not your problem that they failed to breed her. I would be very angry if I were you. Sorry you have to put up with such nonsense.

 

[elrojo]

I can only add that my dealings with John have been outstanding.

 

[chris1968]

I can only add that my dealings with John have been outstanding.

100% agree. John gives out as many snakes as he sells, and has always been someone I wouldn't hesitate to recommend. I also had a payment plan for a Tessera with John, that took much longer than anticipated to pay off. John was nothing but gracious about the length of payment. Would like to see the pm's and/or emails that led up to this. I'd be willing to bet the phrase "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" would apply here. Hope a solution satisfactory to all can be worked out, but as has been said, in breeding snakes (as anything else) nothing is ever a given. Resting your hopes on just one animal to be the cornerstone of several breeding projects is naive at best. So is expecting a refund two years down the road...Just my 2 cents.

 

[airenlow]

I can only add that my dealings with John have been outstanding.

I agree with the above statement.

 

[starsevol]

I only have one snake from John, a female pewter that he generously donated to a charity raffle back in 2010. She is an outstanding example of the morph and if I had the space I would have many more of John's snakes. He is one of the few people I would buy from and not even think about it, his repuatation is outstanding and for good reason. We also met briefly in Daytona once and while I am quite certain he wouldn't remember it, I have to say he comes off as one of the nicest most genuine people you could ever meet in this hobby. I have many friends who are proud owners of his animals and I have never heard a bad thing about him from anyone, up til now.

From what I am gathering about this complaint, I think John has been horribly wronged and deserves a huge apology. Just my 2 cents.....

 

[shed'n my skin]

I've never seen ANYONE sell a snake guaranteeing it will breed. "Proven breeder" means it has bred once, does NOT mean it necessarily will again.
Breeding live animals for profit is a gamble, you should never "count" on recovering an investment.

I've seen John generously loan and give away snakes to many people and I do not think he is someone that would be out for the money or deceive anybody.

 

[Mystic Exotics]

I've never seen ANYONE sell a snake guaranteeing it will breed. "Proven breeder" means it has bred once, does NOT mean it necessarily will again.
Breeding live animals for profit is a gamble, you should never "count" on recovering an investment.

I've seen John generously loan and give away snakes to many people and I do not think he is someone that would be out for the money or deceive anybody.

^^^This!!
Like Shannon said, the located photo of the snake that had produced eggs, proves two things. 1) she is confirmed a female 2) she did produce eggs
The eggs in the photo looked very much fertile, so who knows what happened in the incubation process.
There's so many factors that could be involved.
Is the male used to pair with this female proven a male? Is it possible he is the problem & not the female? Could be a missed ovulation (which many of us know is not at all uncommon). Could be the female just didn't like that male. Just because we put a male & female together, doesn't guarantee that they will produce, even if both have proven to produce eggs/babies.

John is an incredibly generous person & does go out of his way to take care of his customers.

That said, I feel it is incredibly out of line to expect a breeder to "make good" on a snake that is not producing for you a couple years down the road.

Some of these animals are an investment in future projects, I know I have spent a few dollars on some of mine, but I certainly do not hold the breeder accountable if they do not produce for me down the road.
That's Murphy for you.

I got skunked last year with a proven breeder female. I know she's proven, I even have one of her offspring in my home. She failed to produce eggs for me last year. I tried again this year, & I thought I got skunked again, but she dropped a surprise clutch just a couple weeks ago.

I don't think John owes anything for this situation, but had it been approached differently, having seen what kind of person John is, I would be willing to bet that he would have done something for the buyer.

I don't blame John one bit for being so angry that his name is being smeared for a situation that is out of his control.

I also feel it is very hypocritical for them to be advertizing the very same snake for sale (for $750), without mentioning the fact they feel the snake is not able to breed, when they are ranting about "morals".

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395055&highlight=tessera

 

[Lucille]

I don't blame John one bit for being so angry that his name is being smeared for a situation that is out of his control.

I agree.



Kevin is Kevin Landry, according to the ad linked. Is Tammy's last name also Landry? I feel that if anyone should do a search for them in the future, that this thread is part of what the searcher should see.

 

[SnakeGriffin]

Very interesting. That just shows you the irresponsibility of the buyer assuming that it would breed for them guaranteed. I don't work with corns just BPs, but from my experience its pretty much the same. Females either go one year or don't.

I don't understand how someone can take out their own frustration on what is likely a fail in husbandry on the breeder or seller. It isn't Johns fault that the people he sold the animal to don't understand how to breed a snake. Stand your ground John.

And shame on the people trying to taint his reputation! Ugh so much rage that I want to expel o:<

 

[CornCreations]

John's the best!

Hands down!

 

[David Reid]

Are we talking Corns? Really?

Dave

 

[exar15xe]

Hello I am Kevin Landry, and my fiancé is Tammy Reese, let start off by saying Tammy only made a post of feeling frustrated to seek advise from our supposed friends no details of any kind or names were mentioned in her post, so I can only assume out of guilt you have posted here, well as you should be. This offering a tessera baby thing is news to us as well he never conveyed any repair of that to us. You are showing the last email between us over almost 2 yrs of patiently waiting, as our abrupt attempt at a solution. I will be getting all of the emails, Pm's and photos to show my side of this lie you are trying to cover up. I didn't post here to give you every attempt to come with a solution you didn't. And the nark christen Christen of Christen's Corns ,ACR Breeder #851 who asked Tammy to please tell her for he own safety and then sent the emails back to john will be posted in here as well as not trust worthy, I will attach her pm too. So I guess I will be back in a few days with all my info. So I can put all my ducks in a row if you don't mind. Thank you.

 

[Lucille]

a solution

A solution to what? Because your snake did not produce? How is that the seller's fault?
You do not seem to be disclosing your concerns in your sale ad for this snake, what does that say about you?

 

[exar15xe]

A solution to what? Because your snake did not produce? How is that the seller's fault?
You do not seem to be disclosing your concerns in your sale ad for this snake, what does that say about you?

Excuse me like I said if you don't mind jumping all over the conclusions train We dont just post whatever we want here, we have a great reputation because of our good business practices and so I will copy and post the emails from john about the animal and the things he said bout it. I would like to gather all of my emails and pm since john has decided to bring this mess to this level and not solve it.
Thank you

 

[Lucille]

Excuse me like I said if you don't mind jumping all over the conclusions train We dont just post whatever we want here, we have a great reputation because of our good business practices and so I will copy and post the emails from john about the animal and the things he said bout it. I would like to gather all of my emails and pm since john has decided to bring this mess to this level and not solve it.
Thank you

If you do feel as if something is wrong with this snake, you should have disclosed it in your ad. Not doing so, in my opinion, is fraud.
If it is simply a matter of the snake not producing for you, then you have no case against the seller. You can't have it both ways.

 

[zorro]

I didn't want this but when you are private messaging members on what a bad person I am, I came to the correct place to take care of this. I don't remember saying she hadn't bred before but I haven't gone through all the old PM's between us I saved. I don't keep records on any clutches that don't make it for one reason or the other. I do want to thank you for finding the thread showing her with a clutch of eggs which shows she is proven but for some reason or the other didn't breed for you. Here is the pic you found and the thread link.
John
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109761