Bad Guy Dillon and Rick Wascher, www.safedartfrogs.com

[ZooKeeperDoug]

Private, like you gotta sign up? Yeah, I signed up at DB a long time ago. LMAO.

Fauna is too, a "private world-wide-website". However, Mods don't edit my posts (though I do get infractions for them ) And posts are never removed. That is free speech. [/b]

Wanna bet posts are never removed. It isn't frequent, but they are. You may want to read the required reading section for the BOI as it provides specific provisions for what can and will be removed.

 

[Scott Richardson]

Is a door knob or a public restroom completely safe? Anything can make you sick.

 

[hhmoore]

The fact that I have reversed the bans should not lead any of you to believe that drama and interpersonal conflict from other forums (specifically DB) is relevant to this thread. Mr Petranoff, I don't think I should have reversed yours...but, if you prove me correct on that, I'll simply do it again for longer this time.

BTW - The practices and policies of this site are not relevant to this thread, nor are those of Dendroboard.

 

[hhmoore]

(Please just imagine the above post to be in moderator blue)

 

[LauraB]

Thank you, Harald, for the reversal.

The screen shots aren't as large or clear as I would like, but please note my red arrows and underlines.

Who you posting about in the first FB shot I posted, ZooKeeperDoug?

You really reduced yourself to calling whomever "Religious bigots and homophobes"? Not saying you are referring to the Wascher's, though I suspect you were. It really doesn't matter. Your racism and UGLY is apparent no matter who/what company you are referencing or attempting to discredit. Frankly, you aren't fooling anybody.

And what is your post about re: "they're not toxic in captivity"? You've posted than once pn your FB that your frogs are non-toxic in captivity, but no one else can make that SAFE claim?

The ego ...

 

[Lucille]

The Waschers have done nothing to warrant being the subject of a Bad Guy thread from what I have seen posted, and everyone has agreed that the differences of opinions on their frogs would be better addressed in the discussion forums.
All the drama and backbiting erupting here and elsewhere is certainly a contrast with the Wascher's wholesome approach to selling frogs on their site.

The fact that this thread continues makes me think that there is a business quotient as a hidden agenda, and that perhaps some naysayers may envy that Safedartfrogs appears to be a successful enterprise.

 

[Dendro Dave]

Well I haven't read all 17 pages of this thread but since I'm one of the vocal opponents against these people on DB, I'll chime in with my 2 cents (Sorry it is kinda long, but I think if you're actually interested in having a real discussion about our issues with these people it will be worth it)...

I think the best way to summarize my position and why I'm so adamant in my opposition is to copy a section of a post I made on DB in response to a few of the people that kinda sided with DFW/USdart or whatever they call themselves now...

I don't know if these points are enough for BOI's requirements for someone to be considered "a bad guy", but they more then meet my personal requirements, and I have a hard time understanding how anyone can defend them if they read these points and pose these questions to themselves...


Direct link to entire post (if that is ok with the mods)
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...artfrogs-companion-thread-10.html#post1911826

Excerpt from Dendro Dave's (Dave Marks, Tulsa Oklahoma) post on DB:
"(Please read these points and ask yourself these questions...)
1. Usdart etc..etc... has repeatedly posted very questionable, or potentially made up info. At the very least much their "science" is either not actually theirs, or it is is just wrong. They have misunderstood or even misrepresented real science and presented a bunch of BS pseudoscience. Not surprisingly their interpretations are always skewed to their benefit. Do you find it ethical to provide the newest people to the hobby with bad info and/or made up pseudoscience skewed to suit these people's financial agenda?

2. They use ambulance chasing/sleazy used car salesman tactics and are targeting the most uninformed portion of their potential customer base because the informed people (some actual scientists included), have repeatedly called them on their BS. Does this inspire confidence and seem like the tactics of ethical/moral people? Would you want people like that dealing with newcomers to your hobby?

3. They flat out went back on their word about not mixing morphs/locales or species. They said "We will not mix species or varieties". Is someone that will go back on their word like this a logical person to buy from and support, or allow to remain in business without speaking up against them? They've repeatedly went back on their word, and they edit their website so much that "their word" changes ever few minutes, hours, or days... Is that someone who inspires trust and you'd want in your hobby?

4. Initially most people were open to DFW entering into business but when people had a few legit concerns and ask questions and/or informed them that much of what they wanted to do was against the accepted practices of the community they broke off communication (other then website edits). Is someone who has no respect for the hobby's standards, accepted operating procedures, and common etiquette all the while employing sleazy ambulance chaser/used car salesman tactics someone you'd want new people entering the hobby to be exposed to?

5. Rick has hasn't just been taking it, he's been dishing it out. He's repeatedly tried to convince people there are like vast conspiracies by a large number or breeders to misinform you, rip you off and sell subpar animals to you. They seem to repeatedly exaggerate, mislead, or misrepresents things to get people's money, and/or are so ignorant of the actual facts (or intentionally twisting/omitting them (IMO)) that they are a danger to others, the hobby and of course the animals (IMO, and it seems that of many others). Should his potentially permanent statements of this type on a website (if he could keep from editing his site's content for 5 minutes) be unanswered by the community?

6. He's taken pics and info from other sellers or people in the hobby and used them to his benefit while repeatedly trying to distance himself from the hobby and calling into question the integrity of other sellers or people in the hobby, and the quality of their animals/business practices. He's also claimed to respect and admire other breeders while repeatedly disrespecting them and their wishes. Is someone like this that also comes in and acts like they're the best and everyone else is crap while benefiting from the work and knowledge of the people they are insulting, a person you'd welcome into your hobby with open arms?

7. Anyone selling hybrids lessens the chances of someone getting what they actually wanted to buy and not some frog that's mixed and doesn't breed true, but it is especially true in the case of someone who has repeatedly used sleazy tactics and gone back on their word. Does one or few person's selfish desires and lust for profit trump the majority of the hobby communities desire to be reasonably sure what they wanted to buy is actually what they got?

Is someone who has repeatedly gone back on their word, repeatedly edits their website content so nothing can be counted on from day to day, and is producing hybrids and selling those along side of "pure blood" frogs on a commercial scale not someone you would consider a threat to your beloved hobby and animals?

Would you really trust these people not to label a hybrid as "pure" if it looked like one of the parents and they couldn't sell it for the extra $$$ money they sell hybrids for?

8. They make bold claims about how "SAFE" and healthy these animals are with very little to back it up, ignoring info about toxic peptides found in CB animals, and common parasites or diseases that if not common in almost all collections, are at least possible under the best of efforts against them... all while calling into question other people's efforts. Do you not think those kinda claims under those circumstances should be questioned/scrutinized? "


You can probably guess what my answers to those questions would be. I honestly don't know how anyone who has been following these people's antics good in good conscience come to different conclusions then I have about them. Is that enough for a BOI "bad guy" thread? ...I don't know, but again it sure meets my standards for calling someone a "bad guy", and I'm actually routinely accused of not being hard enough on people, both in real life an online
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In the interest of full disclosure (a little background on myself for those who don't know me)...

I have about 10 years in the Dart frog hobby. I have over 5000 posts on DB. Other then being considered a little weird, and maybe the mad scientist of Dendroboard, I basically have a completely untarnished reputation in the hobby. As far as I know almost know one hates me

I was one of the first/few people and very well known (at least in the online dart frog community) to be involved in the hobby from Oklahoma, (I'm kinda a hermit, and don't get out to local shows all that often).

Pre ice storm a few years ago that destroyed almost my entire collection, I probably had the most diverse collection of Dart frogs species/morph wise if not in pure numbers of frogs, froglets and tads. I've bred several species/morphs of darts, a few geckos and sold a few, but the Ice storm hit me just as things were really starting to pop for me. Most of my rebuilding has happened in the last year.

I have not offered frogs for sale in years. I have no profit motivated issues with these people. If they could be half way respectful, and respectable and not go against the community's wishes against hybrids (especially on a large commercial scale) I would have welcomed them with open arms into our hobby.

Please keep in mind that unlike many other animal hobbies, ours has not embraced, or even tacitly accepted hybrids. You may have no problem with them and that is fine, but we do and once a few people open that can of worms, especially on a large commercial scale there is no going back. In numerous polls and just in general period, the consensus seems to be the majority of dartfroggers are against hybrids. Some might consider us selfish for our position, but isn't it more selfish for a few people to force their ideals onto the majority and make it much harder for the majority to be sure that what they wanted to buy is actually what they'll get?

 

[ZooKeeperDoug]

Thank you, Harald, for the reversal.

The screen shots aren't as large or clear as I would like, but please note my red arrows and underlines.

Who you posting about in the first FB shot I posted, ZooKeeperDoug?

You really reduced yourself to calling whomever "Religious bigots and homophobes"? Not saying you are referring to the Wascher's, though I suspect you were. It really doesn't matter. Your racism and UGLY is apparent no matter who/what company you are referencing or attempting to discredit. Frankly, you aren't fooling anybody.

And what is your post about re: "they're not toxic in captivity"? You've posted than once pn your FB that your frogs are non-toxic in captivity, but no one else can make that SAFE claim?

The ego ...

Yes, I was referring to them, and I stand by that comment. You may want to do some reading on the Wascher's Holy Spirit U site.


Specifically

wascher.com/corruptingtheword.html

That's a long hard read to stomach. The part disparaging gays comes at the end. Basically calling anyone who is gay or supports homosexually or doesn't speak out against it is a reprobate. I stand by the fact that people who disparage, gays, lesbians and transgendered individuals are bigots and homophobes. Some of my best friends in the word are gays and lesbians and I proudly stand up for them against people like the Wascher's and anyone else who would condemn them or restrict their rights. Simply as a matter of refusing to support anyone who spews hate speak toward good honest people who just love each other, I would never do business with them on that basis alone.

Pleas keep in mind. I never brought this up here, you did. I would have never spoken about my opinions on their bigotry and homophobia here as it is not relevant to the BOI.

People are of course free to their religious beliefs, but I am free to state the opinion that their beliefs are bigoted and homophobic. There are other comments appearing on their websites that are also antisemetic.

What racism are you referring to? They're the ones who have racist remarks about Jews. I'm not gonna dig that one up for you, shave a look around, you may be surprised at what you find.

What I have said or refered to as to the toxicity of these frogs is very different than what the Wascher's. I'm not calling them Safe, completely harmless, nor do I encourage people to handle them or allow their children to handle them. Furthermore, that comment was specifically intended to by a layman's simple explanation for the person who asked, not a potential purchaser. I stated, "technically", as a complete explanation wasn't warranted under the circumstances. Unlike the Wascher's, I would completely explain the relevant risks to anyone who inquired.

 

[Lucille]

isn't it more selfish for a few people to force their ideals onto the majority and make it much harder for the majority to be sure that what they wanted to buy is actually what they'll get?

I haven't seen a show of force. Have their been assaults or threats, if that has happened please cite where you saw those displays of force.

 

[ZooKeeperDoug]

The Waschers have done nothing to warrant being the subject of a Bad Guy thread from what I have seen posted, and everyone has agreed that the differences of opinions on their frogs would be better addressed in the discussion forums.
All the drama and backbiting erupting here and elsewhere is certainly a contrast with the Wascher's wholesome approach to selling frogs on their site.

The fact that this thread continues makes me think that there is a business quotient as a hidden agenda, and that perhaps some naysayers may envy that Safedartfrogs appears to be a successful enterprise.

This thread continues for two reasons.

Our position is under consistent attack.

We are passionate in defending our hobby against what they would attempt to turn it into. I personally know I got interested because it wasn't like the typical herp Hobbys with all the silly morphs and hybrids which I dislike.

I agree with you, as I've stated many times, a BOI thread isn't warranted, but it is here now and will be delt with. So long as I or others who share my opinions are attacked, I'm free to reply if I see fit. If y'all drop it, I will. I can't speak for anyone else.

As to your accusation that this is probably financially and jealousy motivated, at least for me it absolutely isn't. I made the mistake of turning one hobby love, reef aquariums, into my job. I won't make that mistake again. The last thing I'd ever want to do is turn another hobby I enjoy into a business.

I personally make a little money selling frogs yes, but that's just a pleasant side to the hobby. I have been very lucky recently to make more money selling frogs than I have invested, it isn't a business.The money I make on the side goes right back into my passion for frogs. (I just had to purchase a new 10K BTU window AC unit to keep my frog room cool, ugh) Most of the frogs I'm working with aren't even ones they are working with. They've focus on simple easy to breed frogs that are already over saturated in our hobby anyway. I've actually given away more of the kinds of frogs they're working with to get new people interested in our hobby than I've sold. Unlike the Wascher's, I invite new froggers over to my home to see my frog room all the time. I freely share what I've learned, as many did with. The Wascher's when Dillion was first getting started. Nobody has to sign an NDA as I want them to go out and share what they may have learned from me. Seldom does someone leave without a huge bag of nice plant clippings that others would sell for a pretty penny, a few frogs on the CHEEP, or some piece of spare equipment or supplies they needed. I drill vivariums for a couple beers. When others have had their collections devastated by accidents, fires, etc, I have been one of the first to reach out and offer to replace frogs for my fellow man.

Please don't insult me and consider the impact of your statements before making the,. If you are implying, at least in my case, that I am motivated to rally against them for financial reasons, you are sadly mistaken. Ours isn't a hobby with ultra rare very expensive morphs that command thousands for the latest and greatest, it isn't like the ball python hobby and Cham hobbies where so many are motivated by lust of money. Most of us have to scrape by to get funds for the hobby we enjoy. Some of us, like me are very fortunate to make just enough doing it to support it.

 

[Lucille]

Our position is under consistent attack.
.

Are you feeling attacked because others have differing opinions? No one is forcing anyone else to buy frogs of any kind.

If you have opinions on how frogs should be bred and sold, perhaps those belong in the discussion forums.

 

[Dendro Dave]

I haven't seen a show of force. Have their been assaults or threats, if that has happened please cite where you saw those displays of force.

The "force" or "forcing" I was talking about wasn't of that type, but rather their actions (especially being on large commercial scale), significantly impact a large portion of the hobby community, potentially (and possibly irrevocably) altering the "landscape" of the hobby without those people's consent, and expressly against their wishes. We are essentially forced more and more with every animal they sell to not only rely on their integrity but the integrity of every buyer and seller of their animals from that point to eternity. That creates/increases the inherent risk to everyone who wants to be reasonably confident that what they wanted to buy is actually what they'll get.

Basically (IMO at least), the hobby can withstand a few rogue people creating a hybrid here and there, especially if they are ethical enough to label it what it is when they sell it, if they even try to. These people have repeatedly demonstrated a propensity for using what many consider sleazy tactics, false/inaccurate information, sensationalistic claims, are targeting the most uniformed/new people to the hobby, and going back on their word. In short they've demonstrated that they can't be trusted.

More then that, arguably they've essentially taken a position from their various writings/actions that not only do they have the right to do what they are doing (which technically may be true), but that what we are doing is wrong. Basically their belief/philosophy is that these frogs are supposed to be mixed, and they seem pretty willing to enact and spread that agenda to anyone they can. They are of course entitled to that opinion, but it begs the question... "How likely are they to try and sell hybrids as pure blood when they don't meet their "ornamental" $$$ standards, and look to much like a species/morph/locale that already exists in the hobby and/or nature?"

Maybe it is inevitable that someone will pop the Dart frog hobby's hybrid cherry on a large commercial scale (arguably it has happened already, especially now with DFW/USDartwhateverz), but even if it is inevitable... Hellz if I want it to be people this disrespectful and untrustworthy (IMO), and that is why I'm against them and consider them a "bad guy" business, (well that and all that other stuff in my previous post).

 

[Dendro Dave]

Are you feeling attacked because others have differing opinions? No one is forcing anyone else to buy frogs of any kind.

If you have opinions on how frogs should be bred and sold, perhaps those belong in the discussion forums.

These frogs and these transactions do not exist in a vacuum. They are forcing more inherent risk upon everyone who wants a pure blood animal.

Example, the Snake hobby...

Hybrids, line breeding for specific traits is not only accepted but often encouraged in that hobby. How easy, and how sure can any person be that if they want a pure bred animal that is what they'll actually get when it comes to many of the popular snake species?

...The risk to them has been increased. Now that has become an accepted part of that hobby, likely before that person even entered the hobby but that is not the case in our hobby. Thus the actions of these people "force" more risk upon anyone who wants to get a pure blood animal that is fairly representative of its wild counterparts.

Basically it is practically impossible to let them have their way, especially given their (IMO) untrustworthiness, without impacting everyone else, forcing more risk upon them without their consent.

 

[Lucille]

The "force" or "forcing" I was talking about wasn't of that type, but rather their actions (especially being on large commercial scale), significantly impact a large portion of the hobby community, potentially (and possibly irrevocably) altering the "landscape" of the hobby without those people's consent, and expressly against their wishes.

If you are saying that business means competition, I certainly agree with you. Are you saying they need your permission to be successful? Or that the large portion you speak of are somehow not going to be permitted to privately breed their frogs the way they wish?

 

[Dendro Dave]

Here is an example of how these people operate that makes me think of them as the "bad guy"

"Each and every frog we sell is from solid, well respected hobby lines revered by the hobby itself, and bred true to variety."
http://safedartfrogs.com/health-guarantee.aspx

Ok, so every frog they sell breeds true to variety. First species/morph/locale are the less vague and more accepted terms generally used in our hobby.

So what is the variety? ...A tinc or an auratus? ...Wait how is it the same variety when you breed them together then sell the offspring? Arguably (and I feel this is where they are intentionally being misleading), that offspring would still be part tinc, and it would also be part auratus... That isn't mine, nor do I think most people's idea of "breeding true".

Is it technically a lie? I suppose that depends on your idea of a "lie" or being dishonest in general.... So maybe a No, but more likely it is debatable. Although you could argue that those 2 were pure species and that a hybrid is a different variety then either of the 2 parent species. So in that case it would be a lie.

In the same paragraph and what I feel is an example of their sensationalistic and/or conspiracy claims...

"The breeder stock we started with was obtained from those best known, well-known, breeders as our supplier, but not the big internet names. Even they do not produce alL of their own frogs and we have first hand knowledge of such deception despite their bid to check out their reputation. We bought our original breeder frogs from many, all reputable, individuals. Each and every transaction was diligently recorded, all documented, and verifiable, as an investment in our breeding programs. We do not share that data. "

So we are just expected to believe them even though they've repeatedly misled, misrepresented, straight up lied at least once, and/or are just generally ignorant of the facts.

Icing on the cake, (Husbandry advice that is potentially risky to animals, and keepers (at least if they hate loosing animals and/or money) ...

Do I need to test or quarantine your frogs?

Absolutely not! That is totally unnecessary with our frogs!

Ok arguably everyone is entitled to an opinion, but generally this is considered bad advice in all the herp hobbies isn't it? Unless they test every animal constantly, and have 100% flawlessly succeeded in never introducing foreign matter, even dust into a frog's environment then they can't really be sure that at any given time a pathogen/disease that can be transmitted between animals and possibly even to people hasn't entered their collection... been sold to someone. Nit picky? ...Maybe, but come on with these kinda claims, that are possibly misleading and that could have such a negative impact on people and animals... Nit picking is called for IMO, and another reason I consider them "the bad guys"

 

[Dendro Dave]

If you are saying that business means competition, I certainly agree with you. Are you saying they need your permission to be successful? Or that the large portion you speak of are somehow not going to be permitted to privately breed their frogs the way they wish?

No I wasn't saying any of that, except perhaps the part about not us not being permitted to breed frogs the way we wish, because we'd like to breed pure species to mates of the same species (as unrelated as possible usually).

The more hybrids circulating in the hobby, and especially with more unethical people in the hobby prone to lying and/or misleading people that makes it much more difficult to us to breed frogs the way we want to with a high degree of certainty that our frogs are actually pure, because as I said before these frogs and these transactions do not exist in a vacuum.

Even if one feels these people have every right to inhabit and even expand a market niche (hybrids), that most of us don't want, and have no problem with them negatively impacting us by forcing us to cope with more inherent risk in our transactions for supposedly pure bred frogs, there is still the glaring issue of their misleading, dishonest and IMO sleazy tactics... and at least one bold face lie about not mixing any species or varieties. Is not being caught in at least one big lie, and a crap ton of efforts to be misleading not enough to label them the "bad guy" in your mind? ...You're way more forgiving then I am, (and as I said, I'm routinely accused of generally being far to forgiving).

 

[ZooKeeperDoug]

Are you feeling attacked because others have differing opinions? No one is forcing anyone else to buy frogs of any kind.

If you have opinions on how frogs should be bred and sold, perhaps those belong in the discussion forums.

You know full well it goes far beyond a difference of opinion. Personal attacks and insults are being made.

You're right, nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Neither are we forcing anyone not to buy anything.

We're simply providing information so that buyers can make a responsible decision. You're free to disagree and I and content to let the new readers who are not familiar with the subject read and decide for themselves.

 

[EdwardK]

Doug,

Part of the problem is that in general the level of proof being provided to support the case that there are problematic behaviors on the part of the Waschers isn't being provided. For example, if you want to demonstrate the number of different changes to their site you should provide the long list of names for their company since it was started.
Screen shots of some of the rapid changes to the wording or questionable practices would help you there.

At the moment if you start at the newest post and work backwards, it really looks like a tit for tat response with little concrete evidence being provided to the readers. In the same vein here, did anyone ever start a thread in the discussion section?

Some comments

Ed

 

[EdwardK]

If you have opinions on how frogs should be bred and sold, perhaps those belong in the discussion forums.

Lucille,

One of the reasons dendrobatid hobbyists are often very anti-hybrid is because the founding populations are in general often relatively small and more importantly depending on the population in question, unlikely to very unlikely to ever be reimported. The captive populations/morphs are effectively locality specific animals and if outcrossed there is a potential to lose the captive population. One of the reasons for this is due to the risks of outbreeding depression. Outbreeding depression can take several generations to become evident and by that point the population could have been severely damaged or rendered non-viable. It has been shown in several anurans that even relatively close populations can show outbreeding populations when animals from the two seperate populations are crossed.
The upshot of this is that frogs of questionable lineages are often not highly valued and if there is suspicion of outcrossing, people may divest themselves of frogs to the detriment of the captive population as there is a threshold where a population is rendered non-viable.

Now, the dendrobatid hobby has to own up to some issues on their part. Twice in the last 10-15 years, the hobby was offered the ability to use software (one was the same as AZA Zoos use) to register and track lineages and origins of frogs (as well as other data) but in both cases, the option went away due to the sheer level of indifference from the hobby.

As I noted elsewhere in this thread, it really should be in the discussion area.


Some comments

Ed

 

[EdwardK]

Not in the context they go on to explain why they are safe, no. Is it an accurate assesment? Could be.
They are correct in their claims that the frogs poison comes from their diet in the wild and captive bred frogs raised on fruit flies lack this poison.
Can handling them and putting your fingers in your mouth make you sick? Sure. Can the same be said with a bearded dragon, snake, gecko, etc. sure.

Are their frogs any safer than any other captive bred frog? No.
It is a marketing gimmick plain and simple. They assert that studies show people don't buy the frogs because they are poisonous. The Wascher's are alleviating fear by explaining it. To the rest of us, it seems silly.

Scott,

This isn't exactly accurate. The only toxins the frogs get from their diet are the alkaloids sequestered from invertebrates that in turn sequestered them from plants. This doesn't cover many of the other bioactive peptides that are a routine part of frog mucous and stored in the glands. There peptides such are bradykinins, or caerulins. Neither of which is dietarily derived but are common in frogs and toads.

The second claim that they aren't any more dangerous than reptiles is also inaccurate. The main risk from the animals you listed is due to salmonella and while amphibians are known carriers of salmonella, this isn't the sole risk.

This is the problem with the advertising the frogs as being 100% safe, poison an disease free, as they actually are none of those things.

Some comments

Ed