need info,recommendations or encouragement

[yeloowtang]

I'm at a lost and not sure if it's worth trying anymore..i got this up on another forum but tough i might get different oppinions here at the same time.

this is the story of the same albino female i asked about a while ago.
so a quick run down of events.

last year i got her off a guy in Montreal who had a few snakes for sale;
phone conversation said she was a good 800g, then email before meeting she's down to 650 ish, and finaly home she weighted 525g, a p## o## but hey she looked nice.
the day we met was cold so the inspection was quick as to keep the snake warm. (my mistake)

after i got her home she was set up in her large bin for evaluation (quarentine) same room but seperate from all the rest , the bin and snake were treated as a prevention measure for parasites.

this is where it all starts:

after about 10 days we noticed weasing and nose bubbles, contacted the kid and told him about it so he would check all is other snakes , of course they are all perfect and his story of getting rid of all his visuals to only breed special secret projects with hets is the reason he sold his snakes...
anyhow, i decided to take her to the vet and get her treatment.. since she would probably die if given back ( my mistake again)

so treatment history:

first vet visit got baytril injections , 5 total , every second day all seem to be well and she started feeding for a few months and got up to the 800g ball park

symptomes came back, actually never fully went away as i kept her seperate and watched her closely (summer now) and tried the home remedy with the vicks, said to work.. well it help but never went away, so another vet visit and they insisted baytril again, this time i gave the injections myself since they did not know where to give them.
after my research they should be injected in the upper 1/3-1/2 and they went lower 1/3.
that's another story.(i switched vets)

after this, she was still feeding and looked like she would finally recover.. but at closer examination, things were still not 100% so to the new vet i went ( well respected herp vet) she prescribed fortaz injections 9 all together plus a swab and a culture exam.
I have my oppinion about cultures now :-/

she seemed to be out of the woods but this time she pooped and had a sent gland prolapse !#$%$!@$!@%$%$@ i didn't dare fix it myslef ( i did try to massage it back in and try the water sugar treatment.....so back to the vet.
I made sure she stayed wet ..so more fortaz was given as it seems she had a little mucus still and a anti-inflamatory to help.., lungs sounded fine.. the vet wanted to do a x-ray to make sure she wasn't pregnant ?????? the snake has never been near a male, unless that ###K tried breeding a 525g female and she retained sperm ????

after injections were done, she prolapse again, this time i fixed it myself, pooped and found a little blood and diarea stools !!!!! :-o $!@$!$@@!^ ok so took the poop sample for analysing, results came back negative.

she now prolapses evrytime she pees, she hasn't eaten in 3 month, looks a little dehydraded, because while treating, i had to keep the cage (glass now) dry and sterile because of the bacteria found in the culture, humidity feeds it so water bowl had to be desinfected daily and cage cleaned as well, while keeping warmer temps.otherwise when she drinks, she will contaminate the water and in return re-contaminate herself !!!

she comes out at night and looked as if we got her back to healthy.. so i taught..
finally the RI seems to be cleared (only good news)but her rear section seems infamated and redish almost blood clought like, she's looking skinny now.. wanted to force feed to help..
i know it's not a BURN the max temps are 92 where she sleeps in the hide

just for info : i have over 10 years experience with snakes and never had a sick snake before this one, all my other 35 snakes are perfect including my royal pythons,green tree python, emeralds boas, amazons boas , retic.
cages are cleaned daily,water bowls are filled daily and clean/switched weekly, everyone in on paper towels with proper heat temps and controlers, room is kept at 80deg and 50% humidity, arboreals are sprayed daily and other snakes as they need to be, all shed perfectly and eat as they should - other than the royals that are in breeding mode(off feed)

sooooo sorry for such a long read and thank you for all who take the time to read.
I may missed a few little details but that is the most of it..

I guess what i'm trying to get as info or guidance is:

when do we call it quits ??? 1 year 750$ in vet bills and seems just when she may be going to make it something else pops up...
is it worth continuing to help her fight back to health or count my loses and walk away with my head donw... just put her out of her misery !!! i feel after doing all this it's hard to give up when she may just be to the point of making it, then again , is it going to take another 700$+++ and have her die as an end result ????

i have photos but for some reason the photo bucket transfer seems to have changed and i can't upload ????? says click and drag but when i do so, no options to save show up ??

thanks for your time and feel free to share info and taughts regarding this poor female

Steph

 

[April Homich]

It sounds like you've done all you could - the area by her tail looks horribly bruised. With all the prolapses, I'm wondering if she has major damage to her colon. It also looks like she's lost much more weight than sporadic feeding for a year would cause. Without spending a lot of money, I don't know that you would get answers. Even if you did, she may not be treatable. I hate to say it, but I think I would be done at this point. Even if she started eating, defecating would cause more problems with her prolapse. It's a really tough decision to make. Sorry you were put into such a bad situation.

 

[davidsimon6]

when do we call it quits ??? 1 year 750$ in vet bills and seems just when she may be going to make it something else pops up...
is it worth continuing to help her fight back to health or count my loses and walk away with my head donw... just put her out of her misery !!! i feel after doing all this it's hard to give up when she may just be to the point of making it, then again , is it going to take another 700$+++ and have her die as an end result ????



Steph

This to me would be the hard part to figure out as well.
The animal deserves to live if indeed its possible to regain health. On the other hand if you feel like the snake is going to pass away sooner or later because of the illness, then I would get just one more pet visit to lay the snake down.

For me, ether I would continue with the treatment if I felt that a comeback was out there, or I would put it down. I wouldn't let it live with being sick like this.

I wouldn't want to live for months and months sick.

I'm sorry to hear about this. It does suck when you try and try to save an animal and it doesn't get better.

 

[yeloowtang]

thank you both April and david,

I don't know if her colon has a probelm ?? only 2 weeks prior to this
her fecal testing came back negative..
her sent gland prolapse, is anoying but easy to fix...i"m hoping, maybe wishfully so that if i can get her to eat and rehydrated , that part will stop..

we are keeping a close eye on her, she will shed in the next couple of days, after this i will try to feed her.If she refuses, then i will go to the vet and get carnivor mix formula and tube feed her a few times.. as stressful as it may be for her, it might give her the strengh needed to pull trough..

someone on another forum mention looking them in the eye and if they see life then it deserves a chance... i know this sounds silly but looking at her she does still seem to want to go on..

i will give her the chance to try even if she does need my help..
then if it keeps going down hill i won't have a choice..

thanks you both for the replies and support..

i will update as it goes, fingers crossed that she makes it..

 

[hhmoore]

Looking at the pictures, I'm seeing a very underweight snake with several problems...most likely including persistent infection.
It's easy to say cut your losses; much harder for an animal lover to actually do - especially with a snake that doesn't show obvious signs of suffering. Frankly, though, it's a battle you're probably going to lose.
I'm sorry.

 

[yeloowtang]

Thanks Harald,

I do have a feeling you are right on this one

once the shed is done and if the feedings don't work, i will have to end the suffering of this poor female.
I'm still hoping for a good end to this story... but chances are slim..

the only thing keeping me going with her, is the way she's so curious when we take her out for inspection.. tougue flikering, fast moving still fairly strong but on the lower weigth of where she should be for sure...

as long as she doesn't regurge, is all i ask when she feeds, if she regurges then ... i guess that last vet visit will have to be THE one..

 

[Helenthereef]

Hard decision for you, I think that personally I would let the vet advise - she obviously is not a simple case, and although you are fighting hard for her, there comes a time to admit she has problems more complex that can be dealt with.

And once the trauma is over you might want to think about starting a warning thread in the BOI on the guy who sold her to you with these problems, if you think she came with them. You might also have a case to have him contribute to some of those vet bills if that was the situation.

 

[yeloowtang]

Thanks Helen,

for now the fight continues, she had a nice shed and some of the redness went away. we soaked her and she peed in the water, the sent gland came out but it retracted on its own this time
not out of trouble yet, still got ways to go , but encouraging none the less.

as for the BOI ???
I don't think i want to go there, at this point.. i feel it's not worth it.
In the end i made the decision to keep her, be it a mistake or not !!!

it was last year and all i have is a few emails that i tell him she is sick and then that i will try to treat her.
he claimed his other snakes were fine..
I know she was sick when we got her, i just did not take the extra time to check her out that day becasue it was cold outside when we met. that's my mistake.

an infection juts doesn't get that way in a few days.
after she was home, we leave snakes alone, don't touch them until we try to feed. well !! we did take a look at her for parasites, just did not want to stress her out by opening her mouth,, huge mistake that i should have done when we met..
we tried to feed her 3 days later just to see if she would eat, she jumped on the rat right away and started eating it... cool we taught BUT next morning the rat was spat out and gooey... so at that point we kept a close eye on her.
7 days later we fed other snakes and tried her again with the same results, but by that time we noticed bubbles out of the nose..

since i have never had a sick snake ever, it didn't get it from my colection.
i contacted him to let him know, but he argued his were ok ... soooo it could have gotten a cold whene he took her out to show her to me ??? or he knew it was sick, hence the good price on her

so because of the lack in proof, i don't want to get into a BOI fight and live with my mistake... live and learn

 

[hadenglock]

Has your vet ever considered that maybe a viral infection is occuring? That could explain why the antibiotics only worked temporarily, what kind of bacteria was found after the culture/swab? I am starting to see more and more viral infections occurring with clients coming to my hospital rather than just bacterial infections, It is important to always have them tested for this, not to just give an antibiotic and hope for the best (which is what ive seen most people do). She may have had the virus even before you got her, so when she was brought into a new environment (I.E. your care) the stress of the move and new environment brought on these symptoms you are now seeing. Unfortunately there are no antiviral drugs being used on reptiles (that i know of) and the best thing you can do is wait it out (while increasing the heat, force feed, anything to keep her alive) or euthanasia. I would not consider it cruel or inhumane to do the latter at this point

 

[hadenglock]

If you do plan on keeping her, you need to get her tested to determine if a virus is the culprit

 

[yeloowtang]

Hi,

thanks for your reply,

I can't remember the name of the bacteria if my life depended on it, even my vet gave up trying to prononce it
but it was a bacteria that lives in wet, humid enviroments, this is why the recommendation to keep the cage dry, clean, desinfected at all times to help her rid this bacteria. The reasoning was that the mucus would contaminate and spread, therfor re contaminate her in return.

To try and find what ever viral bug she may have, we did a fecal test and that came back clear of anything, not sure what other test could be done.
blodd tests, x-ray ??

so for now, the vet said to keep an eye on her, got the heat a little higher than usual, humidity is where it should be, a bigger water bowl to help her out, with hopes she will soak on her own..
next comes the feeding.
wanted to last night but she did not come out, she stayed in her hide on the hot spot.

if by the weekend she hasn't eaten, i will get what i need to tube feed her and keep my fingers crossed.

just gald some of the redness went away in the last shed..

 

[davidsimon6]

http://www.vmsherp.com/LCDisease.htm


This is a good website that covers alot of different things that reptiles deal with.

Hope it helps!

 

[yeloowtang]

thanks, i had that one in my favorites a while back but when we changed computers at work, i lost everything.

steph

 

[Helenthereef]

Do keep us updated on her progress, either way, and good luck!

 

[Lupine]

Dear Yeloowtang- I wish I'd seen this post sooner. I am a vet tech and want to throw out a couple of things. The redness you're seeing is from septicemia. They rarely recover from this, but if it's going away, that's a REALLY good sign. As far as antibiotics go, reptiles usually require VERY long courses of treatment, weeks and weeks sometimes. Also, the fecal would have only shown GI parasites and bacteria, NOT viruses. If your vet suspects a particular virus, they will have to send a blood sample out to a lab for testing, however there is so little known about reptile viruses that there really isn't anything that I can think of out there that you can test for.
As for the injection site, there is a longstanding belief that particular drugs which are hard on the kidneys should not be injected caudal to the reptiles kidney because they circulate blood from the caudal part of their bodies to the kidneys before it gets into general circulation. I ave read studies that say it doesn't matter, but no one wants to be the first to take the risk, so we still all go by the old rule just to be safe. If the vet that did this really knew what they were doing, it may not have been the big faux pas it seems like.
As for tube feeding, the stress is often deadly. If you think she'll last without it, I wouldn't do it. After all, stress causes regurgitation, so if she urps it you've done no good. Have you tried "force feeding" a small rodent to her? I mean opening her mouth and stuffing it in, trying to trigger the natural swallow reflex. I would certainly try that before tube feeding. Also, there is the inherent danger of accidentally getting the tube in the trachea instead of esophagus.
Best of luck, and please keep us updated on her progress.

 

[yeloowtang]

thanks for the reply Lupine,

For now , the redness is looking m better, scales look as if they dried up some on the body..
Another Vet on a forum mentioned a same study as the one you read, where baytril may still be effective even if injected lower, but nothing confirmed as well.. so as you said, most will still play safe..

vet did not suspect any viruses for now and did not feel a blood test was neccessary as of yet. we did the stool sample testing because when the sent gland prolapse i found blood in her stool..

as for the force feeding, i'm intregued now... i was under the impression that tube feeding would create less stress and less chances of just spitting the rat back out,just slide the tube down and inject the mix, but it makes sense..

i had tried to force feed a smaller prey item but did not want to stress her more, her feeding response did not kick in and she kept trying to avoid it being put in her mouth..
i will try again with something really smaller like a rat pup to start with..

thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Lupine]

was under the impression that tube feeding would create less stress and less chances of just spitting the rat back out,just slide the tube down and inject the mix, but it makes sense..

Forcing a tube down an animals throat when it doesn't want you to isn't a matter of "just" sliding the tube down unless she doesn't have the energy to fight you, if she does have the energy you will learn quickly it aint that easy! Since the tube is going down the throat they will want to gag, and you have to push the food slowly because a sudden introduction of a belly full of food when your brain knows you didn't swallow will make any animal puke. I know from experience, I've fed many a animal via esophagostomy, nasogastric and orogastric tube. The food also needs to be warmed to body temp. If your vet didn't do so, you'll need to measure the tube length to where the stomach should be (much harder on a snake than any other animal) and get the tube into the stomach because if it is just in the esophagus it will increase the likelihood of regurgitation. I hold the tube alongside the animals body with the tip where it should be inside the stomach when placed, and put a mark with a sharpie on the tube where the animals mouth is, so I know when to stop advancing the tube. If the tube stops going (you run into an obstruction) about 1/4 the way down the snakes body, especially if the snake's mouth (inside) is turning blue- you've gone down the trachea.
If you decide to tube her, I wish you the best of luck! (sincerely, not being sarcastic) and keep us updated on her progress!

 

[yeloowtang]

thanks for all that information, the only info they gave me was that when i get 3/4 of the way down, i should feel ristriction, that is when i've reached the stomach and i can start slowly injecting the food.
they said to avoid going down the wrong opening, to start on the side of the jaw, it limits the chances of screwing up from starting in front...
i knew about the temps but never metioned about it gaging... they seemed to make it look much easier.. just lub it up and slide it down..
what you are discribing seems to make way more sense...since she is still strong, i figure getting the tube down her throat won't be easy at all from your experience...

i will try the force feeding of a rat pup first, if that fails , then a pinky or two, just to get something in her..
if all this fails, then i will have a serious conversation with the vet next check up to see if they have experience in tube feeding, if so then i will request they do it in front of me so i can do it myself next time..

thanks so much for the info, i will for sure update as it goes.

Steph

 

[hhmoore]

lol - snake's don't have a gag reflex...
(keep in mind that their means of ingesting food is quite a bit different than that of mammals; and that their glottis is well forward of their esophagus so they can eat without "choking")
That doesn't mean it is necessarily easy to push something down their throat, if they don't want it. They can, and will, tighten up, twist around, and attempt to expel whatever foreign body you are trying to place.

 

[yeloowtang]

that's what she did when we tried to get a wean rat in her mouth,
we decided to try again another day, and chucked the rat in the garbage.

it wasn't going as planed, open mouth, present rat, push it in, work it down and voila !! but she clearly had other plans

at least she's still vigourous...