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Info Eddy Wilson, Eastern Indigo purchase

I've had the good fortune to be able to purchase several animals from David over the past few years, and can attest that he is a honest businessperson and he keeping of his animals is impeccable. I would be very hard pressed to believe that David is being anything other than honest in this case.

David also correctly handled the snake given that it was in blue, as the animal did not need to be stressed more than it already was from transit. The seller consistently states that David was able to see the animal through the container, but David also made it very clear that the lumps were almost undetectable visually, and would have likely been even more so when the snake was blue. There is also the fact that the lumps are most obvious when looking at the tail from the side, which would have been nigh impossible to see with the snake curled up in a transit container.

I agree with what Matt stated about the bumps not looking like a crimp or kink. Not only would there be more swelling with a recent injury, there would be some distortion of the scalation around the kinks, and the shape is wrong. Given that the lumps are on the dorsal side, there should be some crimping on the ventral side of the animal, but there is done. It rather looks like the lumps are bony protrusions from the top of the vertebrae, which would have likely been there since birth. A vet visit could likely easily confirm the origins of the injury with an x-ray.

In any case, it is the duty of the seller to honestly represent their animals. If the seller did not know about the defect, assuming it was there before David received the animal, then a full refund should be made as the fault was with the seller. Or, a partial refund from the price given that the animal was not perfect as advertised. If the seller does not wish to do this due to disbelief that the flaw was their responsibility, then a collaboration on a vet bill as as was already mentioned would be able to prove the origin of the injury.

Regardless, given the messages supplied by David I would say that the seller has done a very poor job of handling the situation. They have been quite rude and intolerant, leading me to personally believe that it would not be surprising if they had knowingly offloaded a defective animal for the price of a perfect one. Even if the seller was ignorant of the defect, their behavior and handling of this means I would never do business with him.

David, I hope things work out for you. Best of luck with this situation, and please keep us updated with any further correspondence with the seller.
 
Oh man. I had a baby indigo shipped to me from a top breeder who I purchased from before. It, also, had a dorsal bump right at the base of the tail just posterior to the vent. I notified the breeder and he promptly agreed to send me a hatchling from his 2013 hatchlings or refund my money. I said great and told him I would wait for a replacement. I waited a few months for the 2013's to hatch. Soon after hatching, he ships me a new baby. He even paid for shipping and let me keep the indigo with the tail kink as pet quality. I will not breed it, even though it is quite likely the kink was caused by temp fluctuations during incubation. Who knows. The replacement was a gift, so I did not have to buy another Federal Interstate Commerce Permit from FWS.

The breeder who treated me very well is Steve Fuller. He honestly did not notice the bump/kink. But he trusted me and did not even ask for a photo to verify.

I believe you when you say Eddy did not notice your animal's bump either. But I also am of the opinion that it was likely present when he shipped. He should replace it for you or refund the money. Finally, when you receive a new herp, always check it immediately. The fact that it was in shed is no reason not to check it.
 
Sure looks like a kink to me. Unfortunately, couperi and erebennus are both prone to issues like this because of inbreeding. Their protected status makes it difficult to introduce fresh genetics.
I don't know Eddy but I've heard positive things about him. I doubt he knowingly sold you a flawed snake but considering the circumstances I believe he should still refund your money. Tim is right though...in the future inspect your new snakes whether they are in shed or not. Indigos are awesome but they're not fragile.
 
There is an Eddy Wilson from NC here on Fauna.
His FB account is: https://www.facebook.com/eddy.wilson.75

Is this the same Eddy Wilson from your indigo deal?

Robert, I believe it is. I met him once a month or so ago & he knows quite a few people I know.

I know Dave ... I've done business with Dave ... Dave is an honest business man and would never treat a customer as poorly as he has been treated.

The manner in which Eddy has chosen to respond is not that of a business man ...
 
David,
So far there do not seem to be encouraging replies from the seller about splitting the cost of a vet to get a professional opinion.
I realize a vet visit is not cheap, but you might consider just paying for one yourself, getting an opinion, and posting it here.
The vist will serve two purposes: If the vet can diagnose whether the kinks/bumps are injuries or whether on the other hand they are genetically driven bone ridges, you will know whether or not you could (or should) breed this snake in the future.
A professional opinion would also give a more factual basis on which to judge the seller's behavior and you, the buyer's, request for a refund.
I'm so sorry you are having to go through all this.
 
David,
So far there do not seem to be encouraging replies from the seller about splitting the cost of a vet to get a professional opinion.
I realize a vet visit is not cheap, but you might consider just paying for one yourself, getting an opinion, and posting it here.
The vist will serve two purposes: If the vet can diagnose whether the kinks/bumps are injuries or whether on the other hand they are genetically driven bone ridges, you will know whether or not you could (or should) breed this snake in the future.
A professional opinion would also give a more factual basis on which to judge the seller's behavior and you, the buyer's, request for a refund.
I'm so sorry you are having to go through all this.

Lucille, a vet cannot do this in terms of being heritable (factually) or non-heritable without testing and there would have to be a test, which there is not, but a vet certainly could weigh in on how recent they appear to be (like an acute injury versus a possible congenital defect) or make a composition-based (bone versus connective tissue adhesion or what have you) determination with available tests (like a radiograph).

Seems like this seller would not care at this point, however (unfortunately).
 
I do plan on taking this beautiful animal to Avian and Exotic Animal Care either today or tomorrow. Most likely tomorrow due to my schedule. They have a veterinarian there that is ABVP Board Certified in Reptiles.
 
Since he never provided a full body shot of the animal before the sale, I would ask to see if he has any full body shots of him before he sold it to you. Lets see if they magically appeared like he says.
 
Eddy made it a point to argue that I had several minutes viewing the indigo in its plastic deli container and that if there was an issue then, I should have seen it. As I have said before, it is nearly impossible to see this snakes deformities if you are looking down at the snake. You really have to be holding the snake at a certain angle to see the two areas of concern. I decided to take a few pics of the snake in the container that Eddy delivered him in. Important to point out that the first two pics are with the lid off, last one with lid on. Eddy had the lid taped down so I did not remove the lid when I picked him up. Also, the indigo was coiled up and slightly under some of the pine shavings that Eddy used. Nearly impossible to see even with me sitting the snake down on top of the shavings and snapping some quick pics. My camera picks up details better than my eyes do.
 

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The two kinks are obvious in the top two photos. Not sure what, if any, recourse you have if he chooses not to refund. Maybe offer to trade for one of the siblings, if they have not been sold. To try and clarify one point. I have talked to several indigo breeders regarding tail kinks. Concensus is that it is an incubation temperature issue, likely not a result of inbreeding. I feel your pain. It is like buying a new Porsche and later finding out it has a bad scratch. It is cosmetic and does not impact the way the car performs, but still very disappointing to the buyer.
 
I have a similar problem with an adult female. She was hatched with a 'dent' at about the vent sight but on top of the snake. Can't see it unless you feel for it. These guys are good mostly for the pet trade and would make a great pet but imperfect is imperfect and she did not get this in a door or plastic cup. It came out of the egg with the snake in my op.
 
So I made the time to get this boy over to Dr. Wilkinson at Avian and Exotic Animal Care here in Raleigh today. Dr. Wilkinson is one of only about a dozen veterinarians worldwide board certified for reptiles and amphibians. Here is her findings...
 

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Thanks, David.

That is a reasonable medical opinion.

You can still breed this animal in all likelihood (I find genetic attribution to kinks and such to be far overstated/exaggerated when I have actually test-bred that in several other species), but you paid for perfection and perfection is not what you received, so that still does not make you whole. You should be treated better by the seller.
 
Tim Brophy...my recourse is to make sure that anyone even considering do business with Eddy Wilson sees his true colors before they do business with him. He has already made it clear that he won't work with me in any way. The way he has handled this situation proves he isn't a true professional.

I disagree with your analogy. This is not just cosmetic and does indeed impact the way this snake will "perform". Only a greedy individual with no concern for genetics would ever even think about breeding this snake.
 
Thanks Nick. Personally, I would never breed this snake. I have a lot more experience with bearded dragon breeding. I can tell you for sure that there is a genetic issue with tail "kinking" with the witblit gene. I just had to put a 100% het witblit male down due to this deformity. I had purchased this dragon with the intent to breed some visible wits. I know many stories just like this one. I have seen it myself with certain pairings. Hundreds of eggs incubated in one single laboratory grade incubator (so precise and accurate temp and humidity throughout chamber) at the same time and only one clutch has babies with deformed tails. It is indeed genetic with dragons. Why would it be different with snakes? Seems like the majority of the issues I hear/read about with indigos is also "south" of the vent (aka tail area).
 
I agree with you; I would never breed it either and I will never breed the one I received with the kink which was replaced. Sorry if my analogy minimized the issue. You paid for a perfect specimen and received less. And I hope Eddy refunds you in full.
 
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