Bad Guy Avoid Steven Patterson (Apex Reptile Center) at all costs!

[radiant dragons]

And Elexis not to attack you but I've seen tails caught up in plastic deli cups and it does happen to the point where the animal try to free it's tail from being on the inner ridge of the cup

 

[AphroditeGeckos]

Thank you Elexis for understanding.

To be perfectly clear, I am 19 and I live with my parents. My grandma has been living with us since december because my aunt who she lived with before had been battling cancer and then she passed away, it was hell from that point and no one wanted to take her because of her violence. I just help a little bit with her and my aunt asked me to go with her to get some things for her such as some ice cream, bath soap and other necessities. Yes I checked them every time I got in the car but I just glanced at them to see if they were still okay. It's not terribly cold here so it was about 60-70 degrees in the car, no harm there. Yes if he hadn't been in such a hurry, I would have checked them over but no he just sped off because he didn't want to be late for his "meeting" for work. Also I had a little mc donalds burger, it didn't even take me 5 minutes to eat it as I was already eating it in the car. As soon as I was done I went and took them out of their deli cups to weigh them and took pictures for a friend who wanted to purchase them before I did and that was when I noticed the crooked tail. I'm not even sure why I made a huge deal out of it really, I think I was just mad at the fact that I wasn't notified of it. Also I put them in their set ups as soon as I was done weighing them and taking pictures of them. AND I wasn't gone for 3 hours, only 2 hours tops. I'm not even sure why you people keep arguing about all this. It's all done and over with and it's already been settled. Ya'll are just siding with him because he offered to give me $200 credit for another available gecko but I didn't WANT the credit, I didn't mind keeping the male or female at all. So that's why I didn't want the credit or another gecko. Now we ya'll stop? I get a email every time someone comments and it's blowing up my inbox. This is DONE. D-O-N-E. DONE.

 

[Fangthane]

Exactly Nick that's what keeps throwing me off is the darn clear deli cup if she looked multiple times

Body positioning; view perspective; possible obstruction by the paper towel that was likely in the cup, etc. Also, when I give a cursory look to make sure something appears to be okay - especially under circumstances in which I'd have no reason to think they wouldn't be - the last inch or so of the tail doesn't really jump into my mind as something that needs to be focused upon. A reasonably small injury wasn't noticed. Read enough of these threads and you'll see it happens fairly often. It need not be conspiracy theorist fodder. But I guess that's crazy talk. By all means, keep harping on the most meaningless of minutiae.

 

[regardingmarley]

Realistically, a vet will not be able to do anything for the kink unless there is necrotic tissue damage, but the other points do well apply.

Since Brittany has elected to repeatedly ignore the specific question on the animal's feeding response, I will assume it has been eating just fine. So the growth stunting "concern" is irrelevant for this particular gecko. A little seminal discharge will not hamper growth if food consumption is maintained. Over a billion teenage human boys would probably agree. lol

Still he-said/she-said on what might be damage or defect in terms of the timeline, but people sure can observe how different people conducted themselves on this discussion thread.

I'm with you. Also, and this may be just an irrelevant observation, I love how the pictures of the conversation that sparked the possible stunting/eating concern were from a facebook conversation. Facebook lately has become the go to place for new "experts" in the herp hobby. Everyone knows best, everyone is a herpetologist, and everyone thinks you are doing it all wrong from breeding to husbandry. Facebook isn't Fauna. Facebook isn't an education source. And the people in these FB groups are almost always idiots with misinformation (barring of course the ones run by reputable breeders/hobbyists, but still with members posting bogus info). Bottom line - this doesn't pass the smell test, and you should never take a Facebook "friend" as a final authority.

 

[Lucille]

Now we ya'll stop? I get a email every time someone comments and it's blowing up my inbox. This is DONE. D-O-N-E. DONE.

You can go to your user CP and change your notification preferences so that you do not receive those emails.
You can start a thread but you cannot end it, people will continue to discuss what is important to them.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Could she look in the CLEAR deli cup and see the kinked tail Elexis ? The whole deli cup thing is a wash animals at shows sit in them longer than 3 hours and it's hot under them lights. What I don't get is why apex reptiles was in such a rush (meeting at work? Really) he should've made sure she was happy with the animals before splitting, I think both sides of this story are shady and I would never purchase from either one

Both parties have done wrong here, mostly newbie mistakes that I hope they learn from.

Everyone started attacking her, not caring anything about the seller. Since he's a "popular" guy and she's a newbie she's fair game?

Say what? I don't know who the seller is, nor the buyer. Both are newbies in my opinion and have much to learn.

Also I had a little mc donalds burger, it didn't even take me 5 minutes to eat it as I was already eating it in the car. As soon as I was done I went and took them out of their deli cups to weigh them and took pictures for a friend who wanted to purchase them before I did and that was when I noticed the crooked tail.

back seat of my aunts car while we went doing our errands and we were gone for a good 2 hours and then when I got home I had to eat dinner so they sat on my bed THEN I went and looked at them and weighed them, then noticing that the male's tail was all crooked when I put him on the scale.

You should stop ...

While your comments are fairly consistent, the minute details are going to trip you up. There is no need to add details to make it seem less callous.


This experience should be a learning one for both parties.

 

[yeloowtang]

There is no need to add details to make it seem less callous.

CALLOUS ???? really !!! wow
see it's the words used and the insinuations made that get to some..
she explains that dinner was a burger that took 5 mins but for some reason this is not good enough now..

i wans't going to reply since as mentione before, people seem to be attacked for simply just speaking out.. but less callous ?? as if what she did was soooo bad..

I must be the worlds most evil reptile owner for driving 4.5h to pick up 3 emerald boas and then back 4.5h to avoid shipping in cold weather.. god forbid i stopped for gas and a few snacks for the road... then when i got home, took the time to take the coat off, go for a pee, stretch and talk to the wife for 15 mins before setting them up.

it seems that all the little details get nick picked on since not adding any gets her picked on some more.. so she gets blasted for lack of details then blasted for adding details..
she mentioned eating dinner before getting the geckos set up, so what?? everyone assumed she was cooking a roast and took her 3 hours ???
some say she should have went straight home
some say they don't believe she had a sick grandma
some say she has no credibility
some say she must have injurded it
some say she cares more about eating then the geckos

if the seller bolted that fast after giving the pets, she looked at them and they looked fine..
I FOR ONE think that in the car, not doing like most idiots do and opening the deli cup, was the most intelligent thing to do.
avoids, stressing it
avoids it jumping out getting hurt or lost
avoids catching the tail in the lid !!!!

so running a few erronds and then heading home is perfectly fine, people going to reptile expos do it all the time and drive hours to get home..

yess both sides made a mistake, seller for not taking the time 5 minutes max so she can inspect it.

her for not scrutinizing it for defects.. but seller bolted out so not much that would have changed even if she noticed the tail at that momment..she would still be in the exact same situation with the ones blaming her for the wrong doing..

guess it must of been the paper towel in the deli cup that caused the kink..

sure as hell can't believe a word she says, she's just new at this and only 19

 

[Snake-Queen]

Callous is my OPINION, does it make it fact? No.
I will put my animals first, anything less, is callous ... again my OPINION.

She JUST came up with the "explanation" of dinner ...

Quite frankly, I don't care either way. MY OPINION is that she is not ready for animals, she has too much on her plate already.

Do I think the crestie got the kink in the deli cup? No.
Do I think it is her fault? Don't know, not enough proof.

I do think it was callous of her to leave the cresties in their deli cups any longer than necessary ... again that is MY OPINION and no one has to agree with it & I certainly won't change my opinion because you think my opinion is harsh.

Here is the difference as I see it ... she HAD the opportunity to settle in the geckos before she ate, she was home, had that ability to do so. Any argument about driving for hours to pick up another animal & driving home is null. Apples and oranges.

 

[Crestedlovely]

I rarely ever do BOI reply posts, but I'm frankly a little surprised that so few mentions have been made of an 18 gram male being sold as ready to breed. If I got a male of that size after being told he was ready, I would be livid. So he's locked up, so what? I would never even try with a male that size. I can let the 25 gram "nearly ready to breed" thing go because it wasn't stated that she is in fact, ready. In my opinion, nearly ready to breed for a female is more like 30-35 range, but that's opinion since I don't breed a female under 40 grams, preferably 45. But I absolutely would not let go that the male was only 18 grams. Breeding a male that size is flat irresponsible, that's MAYBE half grown if it's a smaller male. My adults males range from 38-64 grams. This alone would make me never even consider buying a gecko from this seller.

 

[yeloowtang]

you absolutely have the right to your oppinion, but it's the words people use that can make it look as if anyone elses opinion is wrong.

callous : insensitive; indifferent; unsympathetic: adjective
showing or having an insensitive and cruel disregard for others.

sorry but running a few erronds before heading home and eating before taking the time to set the geckos up is far from being callous, again your opinion, but to me that's insulting to her and anyone else who doesn't run straight home to the cage..

and my example is not nul at all..

i could have chosen to get them shipped
she could have chosen to get them shipped
i could have ignored my wife
she could could had left the burger aside

it's all relevant to the time spent in that deli cup, witch is a non issue

the little time that geckos spent in that deli cup compared to beeing shipped out or sitting on a table at a show all day before getting purchased to then maybe go for a 2 H drive to the buyers house ???

no sorry, that is not careless or insensitive to the animal.
she could clearly see it in the deli cup.

the only thing she could have done better was to examine it more to se if the tail was damaged.. she went with the pictures sent a few days before and saw the gecko was the same as pictured and live and heathy..that kink could have been hidden in the paper towel or under itself..

i will agree that not enough proof is there to say for sure,, unless she would had filmed her entire 2h before removing it..

and i more then respect your opinion and enjoy reading your posts..
it's just that i think most people should weight the words that are used when pointing at others..
callous for example: that's a harsh word and insulting for people who care about their animals.
just because they don't put the world on hold for even a minute since that would be considered cruel and unsensitive !!!!

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Stephane: Did you check out the boas to make sure they were healthy? Or did you just put them in bags in your back seat and head about your business?

I don't think the issue is that she had it in the back and didn't immediately run home, but that she didn't inspect it, didn't seem too concerned about it at all, but then 3 hours later is saying it is physically damaged. At that point, whether it happened while in her care or the seller's is unclear.

I am not saying the seller is free from inquisition, but why on earth would you pick up an animal in person and not even look at it?

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Also, having to drive 9 hours to pick up snakes and needing to stop for a bathroom break is a little different than picking it up right by your house and somehow not finding time to take them inside. She said she lives with her parents and grandma and ran with her aunt to pick up stuff for her grandma, meaning she was AT HOME. That is why your comparison does not apply.

 

[yeloowtang]

Nick, i totaly agree with the fact she didn't look at them and even mentioned that was her mistake.. but the fact the seller was in a rush and bolted out, wouldn't have change much even if she did see a kink..

reading all the posts here, it's the fact some point out how awefull it was to not go home the second she got them.
the gecko was pefectly safe un the cup.

my comparison is based on the time she spent picking up items on her way home..

she went with her aunt, maybe it was the only way to get a ride there and the aunt offered to take her at the same time , who knows.
the fact that it seemed so irresponsible to do that versus going home is redicules..

of course she should have inspected it more, she looked at it and kept an eye on them while on the road back.Once she took them out she noticed the kinked tail.

in my case, it is diferent for the fact that if you know how sensitive ETBs are.
i wanted to inpect them myself, pack them myself, drive them home myself..

options where he would pack them, and meet half way, means that to inspect them, i have to stress them some more, take them out, and the weather is cold.. to me that's wans;t an option at all.
i had stryro coolers, modified with perches, heat packs on the ceiling with humid aspen at the bottom, where as he might have stuffed them in a pillow case inside a box ??i did not want to chance it.

I agree with every comment about inspecting them more, no excuse for not doing that.
she's new to the hobby, received pictures and figured everything was ok..
so by her timeline of events, the damage is not likely her fault but no way of proving it.

what i think happen is the tail got kinked in the sellers care and he probably did not notice it being in a rush..
it didn't get kink in the deli cup, the OP claims she never opened it and is being critisized for not doing so.if this is true, then she didn't do it by putting the lid back on.

no sense to keep going on about this, my only concern in this, was the way the OP was being picked on for not rushing home asap.. while most people are excited and do that, there was nothing evil about running a few stops on the way.. that did not kink the tail or put the gecko in harms way, it was safe where it was and she kept an eye on it..

 

[Fangthane]

At the risk of Lucille making it a point to jump in to call me a liar, since I said I didn't want to keep beating this dead horse, this continued ridiculousness is getting out of hand.

Did you check out the boas to make sure they were healthy? Or did you just put them in bags in your back seat and head about your business?

Now you're just making things up. Although the inspection obviously wasn't very thorough, there's nothing to say that she didn't bother to check them out. If you don't believe that well-meaning people can miss things, feel free to PM Tom Pecanic and ask him how he managed to miss dehydration and mouth injuries in an animal that he had direct contact with. I can assure you he'll know exactly what you're talking about. Seasoned people can still miss things, even when they know better than to not sweat all the details; noobs can miss things, especially if they're inexperienced enough to assume that the animal will be in the very same condition as it was two days ago. It happens. If I could see through a pane of plastic that an animal is alert, active and ostensibly healthy, I also could easily make a case for choosing not to handle something that may be inclined to jump and run away. This isn't a BP.

I must be the worlds most evil reptile owner for driving 4.5h to pick up 3 emerald boas and then back 4.5h to avoid shipping in cold weather.. god forbid i stopped for gas and a few snacks for the road... then when i got home, took the time to take the coat off, go for a pee, stretch and talk to the wife for 15 mins before setting them up.

I guess in this thread, one really needs to make things jump out, so they're not conveniently missed.

Also, having to drive 9 hours to pick up snakes and needing to stop for a bathroom break is a little different than picking it up right by your house and somehow not finding time to take them inside.

I'll try not to focus too much on the fact that you're going out of your way to ignore the fact that he says his intentional delays consisted of much more than simply a "bathroom break", aside from noting that it's yet another example of how several of you are being very selective about what you choose to read and acknowledge. Wouldn't want to call attention to that which doesn't go along with the nonsensical points you're clinging to, would you?

I don't think the issue is that she had it in the back and didn't immediately run home

Interesting little flip-flop there.

Anyway, there absolutely is no difference. It's a matter of circumstances. Stephane was over 4 hours away from home, which meant that taking them inside wasn't feasible; the OP had errands to run - seemingly not just around the block - which meant that she clearly felt taking them inside wasn't feasible. He could have chosen to buy locally, sparing the snakes from the extended trip, or simply gone without them if they weren't available locally. You can't have it both ways. If one's "callous" for her 2-3 hours of errand-running, so is the other, for his 4.5 hour trip home that included several deliberate delays. It's that simple. To not acknowledge that is nothing short of hypocrisy, seemingly based on nothing more than an inability to relinquish a foolish argument.

Do you truly believe that vendors who drive all night in a box truck full of animals to get to an expo pull over and check each one of them on an hourly basis? If so, I think you're deluding yourself. Everyone is quick to excuse choices that are based purely on capitalistic motivations of cashing in on the reptile trade, yet you want to berate the OP for her circumstantial choice to delay unpacking for a few hours. It's laughable, hypocritical and pitifully self-serving.

She said she lives with her parents and grandma and ran with her aunt to pick up stuff for her grandma, meaning she was AT HOME. That is why your comparison does not apply.

Huh? How does that mean she was "AT HOME?" At best, it means that she was near her home, assuming her errands didn't take her to another county. No matter how much you wish it weren't so, vocabulary matters. Only upon completing the errands and returning to her residence, would she truly be AT HOME. After which, she chose to delay unpacking long enough to eat dinner, which is no different than the time Stephane spent talking to his wife, which you chose to ignore.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

*sigh* my bad. Making a 9 hour trip but stopping for gas and to grab a few snacks and making a bathroom break and then stretching for 15 minutes when you get home is a lot different than picking it up right by your house and somehow not finding time to take them inside.

Better? Let me know if I missed any other "important facts." Talk about making nonsense points.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I don't think the issue is that she had it in the back and didn't immediately run home, but that she didn't inspect it, didn't seem too concerned about it at all, but then 3 hours later is saying it is physically damaged. At that point, whether it happened while in her care or the seller's is unclear.

Also, try not to take my quotes out of context. Or should I obnoxiously bold it since you chose to ignore certain parts? Oh wait, that would make sense in my case because the information you left out matters.

 

[Lucille]

At the risk of Lucille making it a point to jump in to call me a liar, since I said I didn't want to keep beating this dead horse, this continued ridiculousness is getting out of hand.

You are always welcome. I may not always agree with your perspective but you read closely and write persuasively.
I think we will never know where and when the injury occurred, but those who have followed along have been given plenty of thoughtful posts by a wide array of readers in their quest to establish how they feel about the parties involved.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Do you truly believe that vendors who drive all night in a box truck full of animals to get to an expo pull over and check each one of them on an hourly basis?

No. But I do believe that when they put them in a box truck they already know the specific health of each animal.

If someone gave me a box truck of animals and I drove around with them for a few hours just because, then went back to check and found that some were injured or dead, how can I say with certainty that it was the seller's fault? (obviously a made up scenario, but it seems that's what we're doing).

Also, dehydration and mouth rot is not something that happens on a drive home and CANNOT be the buyer's fault or responsibility. Not a good comparison.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Sorry, I should say "mouth injuries" so that I don't get responded to with more bold text telling me I'm avoiding facts because I don't type out every single word someone says

 

[Snake-Queen]

No. But I do believe that when they put them in a box truck they already know the specific health of each animal.

If someone gave me a box truck of animals and I drove around with them for a few hours just because, then went back to check and found that some were injured or dead, how can I say with certainty that it was the seller's fault? (obviously a made up scenario, but it seems that's what we're doing).

Also, dehydration and mouth rot is not something that happens on a drive home and CANNOT be the buyer's fault or responsibility. Not a good comparison.

I can say for certain when I travel with my animals, I know their exact health. And yes, if I am traveling longer than 2-3 hours, I DO check on my animals.