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Bad Guy Avoid Steven Patterson (Apex Reptile Center) at all costs!

A

AphroditeGeckos

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I am very new to Crested Geckos and I just started getting into them. I have been doing a ton of research and talking to a bunch of crested gecko breeders. I got a couple breeding pairs from a friend who is local to me so she is always there to help me. ANYWAY, I bought a pair of what was described in their descriptions as Extreme Harlequins from Apex Reptile Center on Facebook ran by Steven Patterson. Couple days later I found out that they are not extreme harleys. The female was advertised as just about ready to breed and she is 25 grams (I weighed her when I got her home), the male was described as ready to breed and when I weighed him when I got him home he is only 18 grams. So I then knew that I was lied to. I text Steven asking him about the male and he said that he listed him as RTB because he locked with one of his females and I said well 18 grams is not ready to breed and he then said that males don't have to be huge to be able to breed which I in fact knew wasn't true. I have a few people to back me up on this as well because I have been talking to a few people who already had very bad feelings about this transaction. The male also arrived with a kinked tail, now let me make this clear that this was a local pick up so it couldn't of happened during shipping because there was no shipping involved. I noticed it right as I took him out of his deli cup and it made me mad because he didn't tell me about, nor was it in his description. I then told him that the male had a kink in his tail and I was mad that he didn't tell me about it. He said that it wasn't there when he had him and sent me a picture he took of him the day before I picked them up which i see that it wasn't there. SO it still had to of happened before they arrived to me. Today he was in a rush to get to me because he had to get to Riverside to get to a work meeting and he could have smashed his tail being in a hurry but he kept denying it. He wouldn't own up to it and he started becoming very rude and disrespectful. A few of my friends had been telling me to kindly ask him for a partial refund for false advertisement and lying about everything else on top of that. He then got nasty with my and said I F'd the male's tail up and that he isn't responsible for it.

Now my geckos aren't the only ones being false advertised. He has a few other cresties that have major problems that he hasn't stated in their descriptions, so people are going to be buying cresties that have major health issues. Like for instance he has a male harley that is dehydrated (you can tell from wrinkly skin) and another male that obviously has floppy tail syndrome and it isn't stated in the description.

I have all the screen shots to prove all of this and people to back me up. You can message me on my Facebook page LIP Crested Geckos for other questions or comments and for pictures of the screen shots of the messages and listings.
 
AphroditeGeckos said:
I have all the screen shots to prove all of this and people to back me up. You can message me on my Facebook page LIP Crested Geckos for other questions or comments and for pictures of the screen shots of the messages and listings.
Click to expand...
Just attach whatever documentation you have, here, in this thread. If you have proof that currently-listed animals are being misrepresented, people shouldn't have to jump through hoops to see it.
 
AphroditeGeckos said:
The male also arrived with a kinked tail, now let me make this clear that this was a local pick up so it couldn't of happened during shipping because there was no shipping involved. I noticed it right as I took him out of his deli cup
Click to expand...

If you noticed an injury or defect, and it was a pickup, why did you complete the sale?
 
I was part of the thread on facebook - before you got the geckos, people let you know multiple times that the gecko in the sale photo was in shed so the color was not accurate, and that it was not considered by many to be an extreme harlequin. I understand being new to the hobby and not knowing exactly what to look for if you go in unaware, but you did have that info going in at least.

The size was probably harder to judge just by looking, if you are newer to the hobby. So I would understand that.

I guess I would say that to some people, if a male is capable of breeding, he is considered "Ready To Breed." It's not generally the public hobby standard, and many people wait until 30+ grams for males. If the owner honestly witnessed copulation though, the male is capable. And he does look like he has a bulge built for the job. So, something to be aware of in future dealings.

Unfortunately "just about ready to breed" for the female is such a loose phrasing... again, actual RTB weights even for females are sometimes contested, some people claiming that as soon as a female is able to drop infertile eggs, she's good to go, so that leaves the seller some wiggle room. So if size is important to you as a buyer, from now on, get the weight in writing.

The last thing - on the facebook thread you posted pics the seller took of the geckos right as he was bringing them to you (attached here). I am having a hard time seeing an issue with the male's tail. Can you show better pics of the issue?
 

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And that is exactly what I told her. She called me a liar and telling me I don't take care of my animals, which isn't true. I've sold quite a few animals and have never had a bad transaction. 4 hours later she told me about the tail so I jumped right now my pics as I was sure it wasn't true and the pics above are what I took. They were sold to me as extreme Harley's from guyco geckos. Jon and Guy and good friends of mine so I know I did not represent the animal wrong, unless somehow they did.
 
Bought multiple crested geckos and other reptiles from Steven. Had NO issues what so ever, he knows what he's doing and very knowledgeable. if there was any issues I needed to know about the animal he would tell me before hand. I highly doubt he would lie about anything.
 
Honestly I take pride in what I do. I did flip things to make money. This is the wrong hobby for that. If you really have a problem il take back the male and give you another crested in the available album that's priced $200.
 
I do not see anything wrong with the male's tail ... if there is a kink, it is slight.

As far as labeling, 25g can be almost ready to breed ... is not 35g RTB?

I don't know if they are extreme or not, but they are harlequins.
 
Any pictures of the tail kink? So far the only one who posted proof of the geckos tails condition was the seller and it looks normal to me. I'm not saying it doesn't have a tail kink but it's hard to decide who is right in this situation when only one side posts proof.
 
Sorry for not replying to anyone, this weekend was pretty busy for me.

The male didn't have a kink in the picture from TWO days before he delivered to me. When we met up, he was in his car, just rolled the window down and gave me the gecko and said if I had any other questions to just text him and left all fast. Even my aunt said he didn't seem right. The female is 25 grams, not ready to breed yet. The male is 18 grams and definitely not ready to breed but he admitted to breeding him to one of his females, don't you people know that breeding a gecko to young or skinny can cause problems with growth?

The day he delivered to me was the 12th and he sent me that photo on the 10th. He was in a big hurry that night to get them to me because he had to be at a work meeting and I told him that if he didn't have time to just go to his meeting because I didn't want him to rush. He came anyway and he could have smashed the males tail on accident being in a hurry, I didn't even take them out of their deli cups or look at them because I was running errands so they were sitting on the back seat of my aunts car while we went doing our errands and we were gone for a good 2 hours and then when I got home I had to eat dinner so they sat on my bed THEN I went and looked at them and weighed them, then noticing that the male's tail was all crooked when I put him on the scale.
 
In order for you to be taken seriously at this point after Apex has come and given his side of the story, you should probably post some pictures of the supposed tail kink and any other evidence that you're claiming against him. Just my .02 cents..
 
AphroditeGeckos said:
Sorry for not replying to anyone, this weekend was pretty busy for me.

The male didn't have a kink in the picture from TWO days before he delivered to me. When we met up, he was in his car, just rolled the window down and gave me the gecko and said if I had any other questions to just text him and left all fast. Even my aunt said he didn't seem right. The female is 25 grams, not ready to breed yet. The male is 18 grams and definitely not ready to breed but he admitted to breeding him to one of his females, don't you people know that breeding a gecko to young or skinny can cause problems with growth?

The day he delivered to me was the 12th and he sent me that photo on the 10th. He was in a big hurry that night to get them to me because he had to be at a work meeting and I told him that if he didn't have time to just go to his meeting because I didn't want him to rush. He came anyway and he could have smashed the males tail on accident being in a hurry, I didn't even take them out of their deli cups or look at them because I was running errands so they were sitting on the back seat of my aunts car while we went doing our errands and we were gone for a good 2 hours and then when I got home I had to eat dinner so they sat on my bed THEN I went and looked at them and weighed them, then noticing that the male's tail was all crooked when I put him on the scale.
Click to expand...

If the person doesn't even want to get out the car then they don't want my money.
If they try to hand it to me thru a half rolled down window then i don't extend my hand i just go back to my car and leave.

Meeting in person is supposed to benefit you the buyer. It really make s it hard for you to have a case when you meet in person as the assumption is you looked it over and were satisfied with it.
 
Female wasn't sold as ready to breed. Was sold as nearly ready to breed. The male isn't to small to breed. People breed as soon as they are able too. He locked up, To me he was ready. I know people breeding female at 32-34 grams. Therefore in my eyes, the female is almost ready to breed. As far as the kink, I'm more careful than that. I wouldn't risk the animals health for me being in a hurry. I dropped it off flawless. I offered you to switch it out for a credit of $200 on available geckos. I try to keep the peace but you seem to not understand how much I care about my animals. Many people can vouche for my animals and how much I actually care. Just like people can vouche for you on your end. I know that tail wasn't on my end, but I will take the male back and give you another gecko at $200 value.
 
I had already made my last payment the night of February 10th when he was supposed to deliver them, but again something came up so I asked him if we could reschedule.

Here are the pictures. I put them in my iPhoto to show you when each one was taken. The one from him and then the one from me the night he delivered them to me.

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Also, the male could have damaged him tail on his own in his cage and Steven may not have noticed it. I'm not a liar and I didn't do ANYTHING to him. I'm keeping them both as I think they may be able to make some awesome babies in the future. I think any Crested Gecko breeder would tell you the same thing about breeding a male at 18 grams. They have to be 30+ grams just like a female or you can damage their growth.

I texted him at 10 pm about the tail. Here are the screen shots.
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And here is just what my friend of Griffin Geckos told me when he told me about the breeding at 18 grams.
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