Info Cautionary thread- Michael John (Frognerd.com)

[GeckoLabs]

I'm well attuned to individual variation with animals. Yes, some may be more sensitive to certain parameters. She certainly was not dehydrated at all. As previously mentioned, she was drinking fine, and calmly, not hastily.

And in either case, as previously mentioned, this thread was not started to place direct fault on the seller.

The situation at hand, coupled with the conversation had in which the seller acknowledged the husbandry as adequate, would lead anyone to expect a partial refund in the least, not to have to sit and wait around a week before hearing from them again.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I'm well attuned to individual variation with animals. Yes, some may be more sensitive to certain parameters. She certainly was not dehydrated at all. As previously mentioned, she was drinking fine, and calmly, not hastily.

And in either case, as previously mentioned, this thread was not started to place direct fault on the seller.

The situation at hand, coupled with the conversation had in which the seller acknowledged the husbandry as adequate, would lead anyone to expect a partial refund in the least, not to have to sit and wait around a week before hearing from them again.

If the death of the animal was not his fault and not his responsibility, as it died in your care and not his and not during shipment since there was no shipment beyond your transportation of it for two trips, then taking his money from him is warranted how?

 

[Scrooge]

I understand, I hope you guys are able to work out a peaceful resolution and that you continue to grow your abronia collection aside from this frustrating dilemma.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

If the death of the animal was not his fault and not his responsibility, as it died in your care and not his and not during shipment since there was no shipment beyond your transportation of it for two trips, then taking his money from him is warranted how?

Phrased differently, an outwardly healthy animal was placed in your hands and it died in your possession later. Upon opening it, the inward appearance was not unhealthy, either. He did not offer an [X days] health guarantee. Shipment includes a live arrival guarantee. There was no shipment, but a hand-off instead. When it arrived in your hands, it was healthy by all measures taken. It satisfied the live arrival guarantee. There was no implied immortality clause.

If he wants to offer you something out of benevolence, that is his call. Taking his money from him is not owed to you given the scenario.

 

[GeckoLabs]

I understand, I hope you guys are able to work out a peaceful resolution and that you continue to grow your abronia collection aside from this frustrating dilemma.

I hope so as well. Had things of gone differently, I likely would have purchased more from him next year.

 

[GeckoLabs]

Phrased differently, an outwardly healthy animal was placed in your hands and it died in your possession later. Upon opening it, the inward appearance was not unhealthy, either. He did not offer an [X days] health guarantee. Shipment includes a live arrival guarantee. There was no shipment, but a hand-off instead. When it arrived in your hands, it was healthy by all measures taken. It satisfied the live arrival guarantee. There was no implied immortality clause.

If he wants to offer you something out of benevolence, that is his call. Taking his money from him is not owed to you given the scenario.

In saying that the thread was not to place direct fault, it was regarding his husbandry, and/or knowingly handing off a potentially sub-par animal.

Yes, upon receipt, when I got back into the car, I was able to check them quickly, although it was dark, and I was not able to see them particularly well. Yes, they were alive upon receipt. Yes, they both ate.

Had I of been informed that pick up would void anything offered, I wouldn't have bothered. Yes, I was excited to pick them up and finally get them, but the pickup was out of convenience for him- so he didn't have to bother shipping them, and using up a box, and heat packs, etc.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

In saying that the thread was not to place direct fault, it was regarding his husbandry, and/or knowingly handing off a potentially sub-par animal.

Yes, upon receipt, when I got back into the car, I was able to check them quickly, although it was dark, and I was not able to see them particularly well. Yes, they were alive upon receipt. Yes, they both ate.

Had I of been informed that pick up would void anything offered, I wouldn't have bothered. Yes, I was excited to pick them up and finally get them, but the pickup was out of convenience for him- so he didn't have to bother shipping them, and using up a box, and heat packs, etc.

I understand your feelings, but his own terms are of a live arrival guarantee. You received that. The animal was outwardly healthy and alive at the point of receipt. You experienced an unlucky hand days after the transfer. Spreading the pain around without the offer to receive the burden of that pain is not how I would handle this as a buyer. I may or may not offer something as a seller. That decision would be my choice if beyond my terms. Not something to force to have forced upon me. He has lost you as a potential future customer. He gave you what he owed you for what you gave him. It would have been pleasant to have been met part of the way on the loss, but there is no obligation to do so given the scenario presented.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

The qualifier of "although it was dark, and I was not able to see them particularly well" is your responsibility to counter, by the way. You were able to observe them later and the observations were positive in nature, so not much of a need to mention that anyway. If there had been something to observe, taking the time to do it at the moment of hand-off was the time to do so to make sure all looked well.

 

[Pasodama]

I understand your feelings, but his own terms are of a live arrival guarantee. You received that. The animal was outwardly healthy and alive at the point of receipt. You experienced an unlucky hand days after the transfer. Spreading the pain around without the offer to receive the burden of that pain is not how I would handle this as a buyer. I may or may not offer something as a seller. That decision would be my choice if beyond my terms. Not something to force to have forced upon me. He has lost you as a potential future customer. He gave you what he owed you for what you gave him. It would have been pleasant to have been met part of the way on the loss, but there is no obligation to do so given the scenario presented.

Same track as my train of thoughts.

Regardless of how I (personally) would handle things, under this particular scenario, I do not find fault with the seller.
Although it would be a nice gesture, the seller is not obligated to send some form of compensation. He met his TOS and sold what appeared to be two healthy animals. Cause of death is undetermined but I will venture to say that a lot of stress was placed upon the animals after they left the seller's hands... even though I believe the buyer attempted his best to minimize the stress.

....

 

[LuckyStar]

How is the other abronia faring? has she been checked by a vet?

 

[yeloowtang]

I'm also in agreement with the majority here..
When you opted for local pickup versus shipping them home, at this point you took on the responsibility of the animals, then you decided to pick them up at the begining of the trip versus on the way back home.
even if the animals don't seem to be stressed, this prolonged transport (even if you did everything in your power to care for them) was a bad decision and caused that animals life.
it's always sad to lose an animal but you have to sit back and ask yourself, WHY should he even compensate on the lost ??? of course it's always nice when a seller does, in the end this is a buisiness transaction and you received two healthy animals, one dies days later in your care while in their temp enclosures on a prolonged trip..
at some point, sellers can't always be giving out refunds because someone managed to get their animal killed. sad it is and i feel for you...
I don't even understand why you wouldn't purchase again from him..as this death is in no way his fault..

when I sell CBB emerald tree boas(or any other snake) the ones I ship, i always guaranty live arrival and hold on to the $$ until i contact the new owner a few days later to make sure everything is perfect.. I would offer a refund if anything was wrong and have the animal shipped back, or partial if they decide to keep it..
but after a few days/weeks animals that require a specific humidity and gradiant heat are way more delicate than other species, sellers can't be held responsible for someones lack of proper care.. i know you did everything possible , but in the end, these animals should have been set up in their forever homes asap and not go on a road trip in tubs..

both of you are acting like pros in the situation, unless you have a necropsy done by a vet to test for a cause of death, you could ask to contcat the other owners about theirs. but if tests show nothing, that the others and yours are doing well. that both of yours looked great,same size and ate plus the fact he had them cbb since born !!!!??? the only probable cause of death is stress related due to improper conditions for a extended time..no matter how much you think the conditions were perfect, clearly this animal did not..

sorry for your lost but I see no reason why a refund or even a partial one should be given..the animal might still be alive today had you picked them up on your way back or had them shipped..

 

[snared99]

In saying that the thread was not to place direct fault, it was regarding his husbandry, and/or knowingly handing off a potentially sub-par animal.

Yes, upon receipt, when I got back into the car, I was able to check them quickly, although it was dark, and I was not able to see them particularly well. Yes, they were alive upon receipt. Yes, they both ate.

Had I of been informed that pick up would void anything offered, I wouldn't have bothered. Yes, I was excited to pick them up and finally get them, but the pickup was out of convenience for him- so he didn't have to bother shipping them, and using up a box, and heat packs, etc.

So they were all eating/drinking and acting normal upon pick up, and one female coincidentally was ovulating( a sign of good health NOT poor). How can you call the animal sub par???

A long Road trip with a sensitive animal in late fall might not of been the best choice for this situation. Thats a lot of stress on a sensitive animal, no matter what the seller says is adequate. There is a reason we all ship overnight, so the animal gets to its destination as quick as possible so it may get back into the ideal setups and reduce stress. That was lacking in this case, and better planning should have taken place for either pick up or shipping. If time our of the reptiles setup wasn't a factor then every breeder in the world would ship 2-3 day, and shipping would be way cheaper...lol But that is not the case, and these animals need to be handled appropriately

I simply do not see how the seller may be at fault or liable for a refund, when the buyer states they were in great condition upon pick up, and were eating/drinking there after.

 

[CwnAnnwn]

Mr. Damuth.

What could the seller have done differently? He gave you a healthy live animal?

You packed them up, drove them 7 hours in traffic the day you got them. Then you set them up, for 2 days, then packed them back up and drove back 7 hours in traffic.

You essentially shipped them twice in 4 days. That alone could kill a lot of animals.

Honestly.


You are asking for a refund for something you did. The seller gave you 2 healthy animals, you gambled that both where ok to travel 14 hours in traffic. You broke even with the odds.

Not knowing anything about the animals in question, I would say that you probably got lucky that both did not die.

Now, about the seller.

Why in the gosh darn holy heck where you even considering selling this person two live animals if you knew he was going to travel? I don't even do that with orchids. I get that you both are professionals and know the animals really well, but honestly, what happen to common sense here?

I don't think the seller should refund the buyer the full price. It would be nice for him to do 1/2 because it seems like you knew he was going to travel with them. 14 hours, in traffic. From Virginia to Massachusetts to Virginia.

If you really think about it (joking), going through (assuming quickest route) Washington DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New Jersey, New York, in one day could kill a lot of people from the stress . Not to mention the 9 road construction sites on the quickest route.

 

[Mistyck]

The lizard dying is the seller's fault HOW?

He offers no guarantee past live arrival, and you had the lizards for a minimum of 2 days; during which you traveled several hours with the animals. There is no reason that the seller should compensate you for one of those animals. It would be a nice "gesture" but it's not necessary.

As I see it, you stressed those animals out far worse than if the seller would have shipped them to you overnight. You drove 7 hours one way with them, set them up for 2 days and then drove 7 hours back just to set them up again. That's far more stressful than if they had just been in one box, shipped and set up once.

You're just upset that he's been talking about this situation with others;

it became apparent that he was also speaking of our transgressions to other parties while he was supposedly too busy to reply to my PM all week, which doesn’t sit well with me at all.

And had the animals been shipped then he would have been more likely to offer a refund. That doesn't mean that it would have happened then either. He has the discretion to offer or not offer a refund as he sees fit. So you're throwing a hissy fit and starting a charge-back dispute on the seller for NO REASON. You should have just chalked it up to the lizard being too stressed from having traveled so much, and having been set up & taken down at least 3 separate times. Take some responsibility upon yourself because you're not in the clear here.

You're definitely going to wind up being on several people's do not sell to or buy from lists with this thread because of your actions. Goodness knows I wouldn't want to deal with you because of the way you're portraying your "MY way or the highway" attitude!

 

[Lucille]

Yes, I also have a male, who was here prior, and was in brief contact with the females before I put them in their individual enclosures.

Is it possible that the male attacked the female who subsequently died? (Aren't you supposed to quarantine new critters?)

 

[snared99]

Is it possible that the male attacked the female who subsequently died? (Aren't you supposed to quarantine new critters?)

Was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[JButera]

Healthy in 'appearance' seem's to be the problem here. If stress is to blame then why didn't the other lizard die? From my experience most healthy (strong) animals don't die from stress that fast, especially with the care that was giving by the op. This live arrival guarantee given by most sellers are a joke. Unless it means more than the animal "arrived alive" when you take it out of the box then really, who cares? I don't blame either party but I do believe the buyer and the seller should split the loss.

 

[JButera]

an attack without any visible signs of damage isn't much of an attack.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Healthy in 'appearance' seem's to be the problem here. If stress is to blame then why didn't the other lizard die? From my experience most healthy (strong) animals don't die from stress that fast, especially with the care that was giving by the op. This live arrival guarantee given by most sellers are a joke. Unless it means more than the animal "arrived alive" when you take it out of the box then really, who cares? I don't blame either party but I do believe the buyer and the seller should split the loss.

Tolerance for any stressor varies. Even in a healthy population. Some withstand more than others. Invoking that argument in your question could be perceived as an example of survivorship/survival bias.

The following will vary from seller to seller, but I will express how I view it.

The live arrival guarantee is to prevent being taken advantage of by buyer mistakes post-receipt and to offer the buyer protection from loss up to the point of receipt (physical custody change from not-buyer to buyer). Many keepers are infallible in their own minds and cherry-pick information when composing a rationalized perspective. Some sellers also give a health guarantee of so many days (some even a year) that I think is pretty awesome, but that is a risk the seller offers to absorb in his/her terms. Not everyone chooses to, has to, or should offer to absorb that risk. Seeing some of the things I have seen (cooking a baby animal in a literal shoebox a few inches beneath a high-wattage MVB or getting aggressive with a box-cutter while opening a reptile bag or pillow case...yeah...), I limit my official terms to live arrival guarantee and in-condition guarantee. Whichever variant of this is offered, the buyer agrees to them when made aware of terms and the seller honors them.

Also, live arrival for me implies condition being as described/presented. I spell that out a bit more clearly than some in my terms for assurance. I expect the same when I purchase. An undisclosed problem would be a breach of trust. A negative condition change in shipping transit would be my problem to make right as a seller.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

As a couple examples of stuff that can happen that leave a false impression, consider these.

I turned over a Burmese black that I found flipped in the sunlight yesterday. She was struggling and was failing to right herself (I give them the opportunity to practice technique briefly before I intervene to prevent excessive stress). If that happened the day she arrived here while I left to run an errand and she managed to, while just reaching the point of hypoxic exhaustion, tip herself back over, I would simply find her dead or near-dead from the event upon eventually returning home. If I had no security camera to serve as a witness to that event and process, then a person might make the incorrect assumption that I received a bum animal. However, not knowing, I could not make the conclusion to blame the seller. I might avoid the seller going forward just to hedge my risk, but he/she is not known to be responsible for my loss.

Another example is something I have learned of by proxy through the losses others have suffered. Some people use moss for providing a humid substrate or hide packing material for their animals. Some moss products and other substrate materials are treated for pests. This can occasionally cause the poisoning death of animals. Especially babies like hatchling tortoises. The animals seem to die for no apparent reason, but there is indeed a reason. Again, not realizing the reason, a person might mistakenly conclude that the seller is to blame when he/she has zero responsibility in the matter.

Examples like those (and many, many others) feed into the reasoning behind the seller-protecting side of the live arrival guarantee.