Bad Guy Kathryn Wrubel - katiscresteds.com

[CraftingDreams]

It sounds like you have gotten a very good resolution here Lisa, and despite some hiccups on how to refund, Kati has made good on her word
Congratulations and hopefully this unfortunate mess can be taken as a lesson learned

As Julia stated earlier, ALWAYS do some thorough research BEFORE spending a serious amount of money, heck I spend time to check animals out if only $100 or less, at $800.....

Again very sorry you went through this and just glad it has had a relatively speedy and satisfactory outcome.....compared to many I assure you.

Thank you.

 

[senusenu]

Actually that statement is at this point in time, factually incorrect!
If live animals are paid for in ONE transaction and by goods and services they will at least review the case and I personally know people who have received a refund from PayPal after winning the case.
Somewhat irrelevant to anything here though.........

Yes, some people may get lucky and get a resolution in their favor. It doesn't change the fact that PayPal is notorious for washing their hands of any live animal transaction.

https://www.paypal.com/selfhelp/article/FAQ2091/1

We also regulate transactions involving:

Items that fall into highly regulated categories or industries, many of which are also regulated by government and other agencies worldwide. One such category is animal and wildlife products, including the sale and delivery of live animals or any part of an endangered or protected animal.

How many times on this very board have we seen transactions gone awry in which the buyer attempted to make a claim (on animals that DID arrive, not on goods that were never sent) in which the seller cried "live animal/no refund policy" and PayPal has said "so sorry, you're SOL" and closed the dispute in the seller's favor?

This particular transaction was done in multiple payments, which is also not covered- that doesn't change the fact that the buyer would still have lost the dispute because it's a live animal and not covered.

Some people getting lucky does not erase everyone else who has not. The best case is to fund the transaction through you bank and then go to them to dispute it.

Yes, at this point it's moot. It is still not a "factually incorrect" statement.

 

[guruza]

Dude, PayPal doesn't even offer protection for live animals regardless of how the cash is sent. Very rarely does someone get a resolution in their favor, they have to be extremely lucky.

Nevermind it could be considered a good faith transaction on the seller's part to simply give the refund and get the whole mess sorted out rather than dragging it on and on. Yeah, gosh, it's a business, I had NO IDEA, thanks for informing me.

Give it a rest. Kati is making the customer whole and showing faith that Lisa will do the right thing. IF something goes wrong at this point, then you can start having a fit over how it's concluded.

You need to calm yourself. Iv seen paypal go against their rules regarding live animals numerous times. There is literally no harm in playing this safely. Just because you would feel safe without paypals protection most certainly does not mean its the best rout to go. Literally noone advises people to send via friends and family when they are expecting an animal in return for the money. Well, noone besides people looking to scam.

 

[CraftingDreams]

There are key words there. They regulate. I think at times it depends on the situation. There are a lot of factors in transporting animals. Each case might be different. Since there are people that have won, maybe it's a case by case. While I wasn't covered for multiple transactions for one item, I still had a chance to win the complaint had it not been answered by the seller. It was still a possibility, even with it being an animal.

 

[CraftingDreams]

And she absolutely did not request that I send friends and family. That was my own doing.

 

[guruza]

I wasnt actually referencing anything regarding this deal, just making the statement that anyone who actually requests that service be used is more often than not, very untrustworthy. And i have had to open several disputes over the years regarding animals iv bought for various reasons and i have yet to have paypal not make a fair decision regarding my case.

 

[Black Adder]

Getting a little off topic here but I believe I stated it correctly

"If live animals are paid for in ONE transaction and by goods and services they will at least review the case and I personally know people who have received a refund from PayPal after winning the case."

I am fairly sure that covers it succinctly.

EVERY case is individual and PayPal do not now arbitrarily find against live animal cases just on that point alone, they take all other mitigating circumstances and actions into account as well in that particular case.

PayPal has moved along some since their divorce from eBay and have learned they need to think outside of their previous eBay transaction only box. Yes they are still not perfect but they have made strides in the right direction.

So to state "PayPal does not cover ANY live animal case" is incorrect.

And I think that should be all on this subject on this BOI thread as there are other forums for this type of discussion.

 

[senusenu]

There are key words there. They regulate. I think at times it depends on the situation. There are a lot of factors in transporting animals. Each case might be different. Since there are people that have won, maybe it's a case by case. While I wasn't covered for multiple transactions for one item, I still had a chance to win the complaint had it not been answered by the seller. It was still a possibility, even with it being an animal.

You would automatically win regardless of what the transaction was if the seller never replies, kinda like if you get sued in court and don't show up, they get a default judgment. So yes, in some cases people can win, or if they get a particularly sympathetic person who reviews their case, or in some instances they word the dispute very carefully. It can happen, for sure. I've never needed to dispute a transaction involving animals, thankfully.

If you Google something like "PayPal live animal" you'll find loads of information about how PayPal deals with disputes involving animals, which would be useful to know for future reference. If you can find information from people who won, you might be able to find out what they did to win- again, simply for future reference.

Either way, I'm glad both of you were able to come to a conclusion that worked out. I hope it doesn't completely sour you on online transactions, because there are still amazing people out there with beautiful animals. I've gotten 5 animals (snakes) over four transactions, four different sellers, and all have gone wonderfully. My snakes are healthy and beautiful and I won't hesitate to buy online again in the future.

Incidentally, I recently saw through a friend a breeder who has been working with leucistic (true white, not albino) cresties, both to prove them out and to determine the inheritance thereof. If you still have your heart set on a white crestie, while it'll cost a pretty penny, it might be something for you to look at eventually. I'll see if I can find it again and send you a private message with a link.

 

[CraftingDreams]

I am waiting for a while.. I have had great experiences in the past with online orders.. nothing close to this amount.. and not for cresteds.. but I don't plan on getting anymore bearded..lol. . The two I have take up a whole wall as it is. I am going to get to know people before I buy anymore cresteds or leopards for that matter. I've seen a few beautiful cresteds, but I am a bit damaged, so it could take some time. I think you are talking about Brian at Altitude. I've been reading about what he's doing.. but don't think he's close enough to sell yet. Maybe by the time he is, I will be ready. Don't know.. we will see.. That's one reason my daughter is upset as well. . Cresteds in general are hard not to love.. they are like little gentile balls of crush velvet. Lol. I've purchased some before as a Christmas gift for a friend.. nothing quite so expensive... 4 babies, 2 eggs and a big breeding male. The woman kept the female.. she just didn't want more babies..lol. I didn't think I would really like them.. but when she handed me the male... I was struck.. it was amazing.. there is just something about them.. sadly, they were already promised..lol.. and I couldn't break my promise.. I can now see why people say they are addicted... my son lives all "Dinosaurs".. he loved holding him while I cleaned the bin.. so eventually... I'll put this stuff in storage instead of getting rid of it and just let it get out of my system.

 

[CraftingDreams]

I wasnt actually referencing anything regarding this deal, just making the statement that anyone who actually requests that service be used is more often than not, very untrustworthy. And i have had to open several disputes over the years regarding animals iv bought for various reasons and i have yet to have paypal not make a fair decision regarding my case.

I know,.. I just wanted to make it clear that she did NOT request that I send that way. Sending the money how I did was my own choice.

 

[senusenu]

I am waiting for a while.. I have had great experiences in the past with online orders.. nothing close to this amount.. and not for cresteds.. but I don't plan on getting anymore bearded..lol. . The two I have take up a whole wall as it is. I am going to get to know people before I buy anymore cresteds or leopards for that matter. I've seen a few beautiful cresteds, but I am a bit damaged, so it could take some time. I think you are talking about Brian at Altitude. I've been reading about what he's doing.. but don't think he's close enough to sell yet. Maybe by the time he is, I will be ready. Don't know.. we will see.. That's one reason my daughter is upset as well. . Cresteds in general are hard not to love.. they are like little gentile balls of crush velvet. Lol. I've purchased some before as a Christmas gift for a friend.. nothing quite so expensive... 4 babies, 2 eggs and a big breeding male. The woman kept the female.. she just didn't want more babies..lol. I didn't think I would really like them.. but when she handed me the male... I was struck.. it was amazing.. there is just something about them.. sadly, they were already promised..lol.. and I couldn't break my promise.. I can now see why people say they are addicted... my son lives all "Dinosaurs".. he loved holding him while I cleaned the bin.. so eventually... I'll put this stuff in storage instead of getting rid of it and just let it get out of my system.

I don't know who it was (I'm into snakes, not lizards) and they won't want us naming other sellers here. I asked my friend if they could find the post so I can relay it to you.

Cresties are cute little things, it's hard not to love them. I like looking at photos of them. They're so adorable.

Definitely, get past this specific issue, and then come back later. You'll be more informed and prepared. You'll be better able to find and acquire what you want, and hopefully less likely to be disappointed.

For the record, I have paid for snakes both as "friends and family" (my choice) and in multiple payments (also my choice). Both times, it was before I knew better, before I knew there was no protection for those payments. The sellers did not ask me to. I sent the "friends and family" payments because I was making multiple payments and wasn't sure how much they'd be charged in fees, and I didn't want them eating extra fees because they were nice enough to accommodate ME paying over time. That snake is my profile picture. I also made multiple (two) payments for another snake, sent as goods/services. My other snakes were paid as goods and single payments.

So I totally get the "trying to be nice" thing when you're purchasing an animal. You talk with the seller, get friendly with them, and it just feels like the nice thing to do. For me, it worked out great on all my transactions, but I know better for in the future now, and can weigh my chances before I send money.

It is safest for you to always send money as goods/services, backed up by your bank. I know you said she didn't ask you to send as "friends and family" but in the future, make sure you don't do it. Any seller that *does* ask you to should be avoided.

 

[CraftingDreams]

See that's the way I am.. the first three I sent $5 extra per 100 to take care of the fees.. the second two I sent friends and family because I trusted and didn't want then to eat the cost.. I thought I was getting something worth more and figured they were nice e nj ought to go a bit lower and take payments, so.. ehh.. but it will be over soon, so I have stuff to get finished on this end and we will see.

 

[BeauBoi]

I know,.. I just wanted to make it clear that she did NOT request that I send that way. Sending the money how I did was my own choice.

I think you have made it perfectly clear that you choose to screw PayPal out of their due fees all on your own...
~Beau

 

[Lucille]

See that's the way I am.. the first three I sent $5 extra per 100 to take care of the fees.. the second two I sent friends and family because I trusted and didn't want then to eat the cost.. I thought I was getting something worth more and figured they were nice e nj ought to go a bit lower and take payments, so.. ehh.. but it will be over soon, so I have stuff to get finished on this end and we will see.

You keep on coming back to this. You should not be proud of basically stealing from Paypal by sending a transaction 'friends and family' when it wasn't.

 

[CraftingDreams]

It's not something I do all the time... I was thinking of the seller... I send a lot of money through paypal and normally I send more for goods. paypal gets their fees and the seller doesn't get shorted the amount due. My friends and family has always been there for me to use with my daughter.. I said I sewed up.. but it wasn't done deliberate to screw anyone out of anything. On the contrary.. I had good intentions.. just didn't think it through..

 

[senusenu]

You keep on coming back to this. You should not be proud of basically stealing from Paypal by sending a transaction 'friends and family' when it wasn't.

It's kind of harsh, but yes. This is another aspect. We use PayPal's services, if we are sellers, so the fees are part of that process. If we are conducting a business transaction, and use PayPal, they deserve their cut.

I don't think buyers are necessarily aware of this, though. If they've never sold anything, they may not know how the fees work. If they do know, and choose to subvert it, then that's on them.

I feel inclined to send an invoice when I am ready to sell lol cover all the bases.

 

[kati_slvr]

Lisa, the final refund has been sent to you through PayPal ($320). You confirmed that you already received the first $500 refund yesterday. Please also confirm that you received the $320 today.

Ship Elvis back to me within 14 days of today. When you have a good day set up to ship him (that also works for me and the weather is good), I will generate the prepaid shipping label and email it to you. I don't want to generate the label too far in advance as it could expire. Please email me directly with the proposed shipping date so I get that information as soon as possible to make arrangements.

 

[JumpinJewels]

From the look of the seller wanting the gecko back as apposed to giving you a partial refund and letting you keep the gecko, I dont believe that she knew it wasnt a moonglow regardless of whether they exist or not. Im sure anyone can find pleanty of people who believe moonglows exists. You say she knowingly sold a fired down buckskin, but i believe if that was true then wouldnt she rather have taken you up on the partial refund offer as opposed to the full refund?

With qr years in the business she knew.

 

[JumpinJewels]

From the look of the seller wanting the gecko back as apposed to giving you a partial refund and letting you keep the gecko, I dont believe that she knew it wasnt a moonglow regardless of whether they exist or not. Im sure anyone can find pleanty of people who believe moonglows exists. You say she knowingly sold a fired down buckskin, but i believe if that was true then wouldnt she rather have taken you up on the partial refund offer as opposed to the full refund?

With 14 years in the business she knew. Yet she is feeding babyfood and vitamins. She warned Lisa that only her gecko was a true Moonglow and beware of others. She knew...

 

[JumpinJewels]

With qr years in the business she knew.

Yes, she would need the protections of paypal because shes issuing a refund BEFORE the gecko is in her possession. The protection will be there incase A: The gecko doesnt get to her, or B: The gecko arrives dead. That is why you never send money via family and friends option when your doing business. Refund or not, this is business.

We pay for geckos everyday before they are in our possession.