Bad Guy Craig Wyatt Scammer Bad Guy Selling Sick Animals

[Jay Sick]

My guess is Jay is a guy who usually gets his way by bullying and blustering. From his posts here, that certainly seems to be his style. No reasoned arguments or presentation of evidence or facts, just a lot of blowhard type statements that are opinions. And the typical whining about the BOI being set against him. What he doesn't seem to realize is that there are hundreds of threads where individuals have tried to fool everybody and it doesn't work. Heck, fake letters from vets have been done before. None of these little schemes are new, no matter how creative a scammer may think he's being.

Jay, I don't believe for a moment you have "legal counsel". However, if those letters are fake, you're going to need it because that vet is going to come after you in court for doing that. I will say that the letters are far more intelligently written than you seem capable of. So either someone helped you with them, or you really convinced the vet to write them. But the problem with that is that no one has any clue whose chams you took to the vet. You've provided no proof at all that they were the ones Craig sent you. The vet writing that they were from Craig is hearsay, and does not prove one single thing. Had you more accurately documented their condition and provided evidence from the vet immediately, that would be more convincing.

I always try to keep an open mind. But Jay, you have not shown yourself well here. I think VERY few people who check the BOI will ever have anything to do with you, and that's not on Craig, that is 100% on you. But hey, if it's all a waste of time, why are you here? Why do you care?

What im curious about is when all you know it alls see the letters are not fake then what are you gonna do then what are you gonna come up with next ??? It will not end all this does is prove me right about this boi your all a bunch of vultures looking for a field mouse it's sickening how you all assume your right. When your all proven wrong then what ??? What is your responses then am i gonna be the guy who shot Kennedy ??

 

[Jay Sick]

My guess is Jay is a guy who usually gets his way by bullying and blustering. From his posts here, that certainly seems to be his style. No reasoned arguments or presentation of evidence or facts, just a lot of blowhard type statements that are opinions. And the typical whining about the BOI being set against him. What he doesn't seem to realize is that there are hundreds of threads where individuals have tried to fool everybody and it doesn't work. Heck, fake letters from vets have been done before. None of these little schemes are new, no matter how creative a scammer may think he's being.

Jay, I don't believe for a moment you have "legal counsel". However, if those letters are fake, you're going to need it because that vet is going to come after you in court for doing that. I will say that the letters are far more intelligently written than you seem capable of. So either someone helped you with them, or you really convinced the vet to write them. But the problem with that is that no one has any clue whose chams you took to the vet. You've provided no proof at all that they were the ones Craig sent you. The vet writing that they were from Craig is hearsay, and does not prove one single thing. Had you more accurately documented their condition and provided evidence from the vet immediately, that would be more convincing.

I always try to keep an open mind. But Jay, you have not shown yourself well here. I think VERY few people who check the BOI will ever have anything to do with you, and that's not on Craig, that is 100% on you. But hey, if it's all a waste of time, why are you here? Why do you care?

This is exactly what i knew everyone would do this is fake that's fake yada yada their is no point in proving anything to any of you you will all find something else to complain or call out. why does more than one person need to email the vet ??

 

[Jay Sick]

I sent Chris an email as well.

your emailing and facebooking the vet ??? how many people does it take to get an answer that i would assume is very annoying for him to answer 3 or 4 different people who are not mods or admins this is why this is a big joke

 

[WebSlave]

"Prove it to their satisfaction" ??? Every 5 minutes you have some other random chime in and ask the same question 5 times in a row. You find it logical for a person to repetitively answer the same question and prove him self over and over ?? To answer what could be a possible competitor in his field trying to discredit him ? The list goes on, i do understand it's formula but do not agree with it. You are basically the only boi in the reptile market aside from some crappy fb boi's that have the structure of a drunk gorilla. So how fair is it that being the only credible boi in the market you don't do more than just as you say " good luck pal hope you can win the public view " that is basically making it a sophisticated bar brawl online. I know you are smart and have to see this as relevant. ? I have no issue being judged by respectable members and peers but not some JABRONI out in catmandoo somewhere with nothing better to do. Since your elite be elite and honor your members with fairness?? Instead they cowar in fear when you or lucille or hh moore come on and tuck tail and run that is not "DEMOCRACY "

Sorry, haven't seen this repetitive nature of questions and answers you are referring to. Granted, it might happen upon occasion when someone fails to read an entire thread and instead posts a question about a post that is early on in a thread, but only up to the point where the person has read to so far. It happens. But in most case, others will chime in to provide an answer that has already been disclosed. People are asking because they want to know about YOU.

So now you are saying that the Board of Inquiry here is the only credible source for this type of information in the market. And yet earlier you stated that no one takes this site seriously any longer. Sorry, but I am having a lot of trouble resolving both of those statements into a rational view of what you perceive about this site. I know you don't agree with how it is being run, but it also appears that you are severely underestimating what it can mean to you. You said yourself that other similar pages or groups or sites are run poorly, which I presume means that they are ineffective at accomplishing what they are trying to do. Does it take much of a stretch of the gray matter to realize that maybe this site is effective BECAUSE of the way it is run? That the methodology you don't like is really the only effective way to run something of this nature?

The way I run this site is the most even handed and fair method I have been able to come up with. Which means that it is run without staff here being heavy handed, making judgement calls on our own, and then FORCING others to accept that judgement by controlling the discussion. We do not favor anyone. We do not edit nor delete posts made by others, even if they may be unfavorable to one of our best friends. What you see posted is EXACTLY what the original poster typed in and submitted. All we really try to do is to enforce our rules concerning not WHAT is said, but HOW it is said in reference to being professional at at least a modicum of good public taste.

And you say that is unfair? How so? How would you make it more fair? And before you even approach where I think you will go, no, I am not going to hire private investigators, much less become one myself, to try to get to the bottom of any and every situation brought to the BOI. In nearly all of the cases I have seen, if the participants keep on working at it, something will get resolved, and somehow the truth will eventually come out. But even if it doesn't, the matter is still in the hands of the readers to make their own determination about what they think is the *truth*. We are NOT going to tell them what we think THEY should think the truth is. It's ALL there, in black and white, for them to use their own brains to make their own decisions about.

BTW, these "jabronis" that you are back-handing here are YOUR potential customers and references. People will ask about you and someone will remember that bitch slap. Not just today, but for as long as you try to stay in business, those people will come here looking for information about YOU. And not only in the reptile business. This site gets heavily referenced by search engine spiders. People use internet search engines quite frequently for all sorts of things that could directly affect your future, including job applications and promotions. Are you sure it is wise to refer to such people in this manner and have someone who might be important to your future making decisions based on your attitude being displayed in public?

Think about it, please.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

your emailing and facebooking the vet ??? how many people does it take to get an answer that i would assume is very annoying for him to answer 3 or 4 different people who are not mods or admins this is why this is a big joke

To answer the question, no. I am not emailing and "facebooking" Chris. I emailed Chris to make him aware of this thread and suggested that he weigh in since his name has become involved in the matter of the letters.

I am a moderator, although you have failed to explain the relevance of that as a factor compared to any other member.

The reason I decided to contact Chris is because I have engaged in transactions with him on more than one occasion and have referred quite a few people in my corner of the breeding portion of the hobby to him so that they may also consider engaging in business with him if his product suits their needs. With him possibly having a reputation-based stake in this, I would like to see what he has to say on the matter here.

I have not been privy to whatever the joke is that you keep referring to.

 

[Fangthane]

What im curious about is when all you know it alls see the letters are not fake then what are you gonna do then what are you gonna come up with next ???

I'd already addressed this in a previous post, on another thread.

Frankly, I think Ciccone has long since shot all his credibility all to hell and back. Without uninterrupted video documentation showing the actual animals in question being received by a licensed vet. who doesn't happen to be his partner, I'm not sure there's really any way I could see the subsequent report as being anything other than highly suspect.

In light of the aforementioned lack of credibility you've consistently shown, it's only natural to suspect that the animals supposedly provided to the vet. aren't even the actual chameleons in question. Did you think to fully document the exchange, as I'd mentioned above? If not, that seems like an awfully convenient oversight - especially considering how you love to shoot your self-serving little video clips.

 

[Jay Sick]

Sorry, haven't seen this repetitive nature of questions and answers you are referring to. Granted, it might happen upon occasion when someone fails to read an entire thread and instead posts a question about a post that is early on in a thread, but only up to the point where the person has read to so far. It happens. But in most case, others will chime in to provide an answer that has already been disclosed. People are asking because they want to know about YOU.

So now you are saying that the Board of Inquiry here is the only credible source for this type of information in the market. And yet earlier you stated that no one takes this site seriously any longer. Sorry, but I am having a lot of trouble resolving both of those statements into a rational view of what you perceive about this site. I know you don't agree with how it is being run, but it also appears that you are severely underestimating what it can mean to you. You said yourself that other similar pages or groups or sites are run poorly, which I presume means that they are ineffective at accomplishing what they are trying to do. Does it take much of a stretch of the gray matter to realize that maybe this site is effective BECAUSE of the way it is run? That the methodology you don't like is really the only effective way to run something of this nature?

The way I run this site is the most even handed and fair method I have been able to come up with. Which means that it is run without staff here being heavy handed, making judgement calls on our own, and then FORCING others to accept that judgement by controlling the discussion. We do not favor anyone. We do not edit nor delete posts made by others, even if they may be unfavorable to one of our best friends. What you see posted is EXACTLY what the original poster typed in and submitted. All we really try to do is to enforce our rules concerning not WHAT is said, but HOW it is said in reference to being professional at at least a modicum of good public taste.

And you say that is unfair? How so? How would you make it more fair? And before you even approach where I think you will go, no, I am not going to hire private investigators, much less become one myself, to try to get to the bottom of any and every situation brought to the BOI. In nearly all of the cases I have seen, if the participants keep on working at it, something will get resolved, and somehow the truth will eventually come out. But even if it doesn't, the matter is still in the hands of the readers to make their own determination about what they think is the *truth*. We are NOT going to tell them what we think THEY should think the truth is. It's ALL there, in black and white, for them to use their own brains to make their own decisions about.

BTW, these "jabronis" that you are back-handing here are YOUR potential customers and references. People will ask about you and someone will remember that bitch slap. Not just today, but for as long as you try to stay in business, those people will come here looking for information about YOU. And not only in the reptile business. This site gets heavily referenced by search engine spiders. People use internet search engines quite frequently for all sorts of things that could directly affect your future, including job applications and promotions. Are you sure it is wise to refer to such people in this manner and have someone who might be important to your future making decisions based on your attitude being displayed in public?

Think about it, please.

my solution was a 10 person panel of reputable respected senior members

when a has a issue with b, A comes to fauna and messages b that he would like to settle this on fauna b responds both a and b sign a waiver saying they agree to abide by judges decision a and b present their case 10 panel judges decide who ever it was that requested the trial a or b pays the 25 dollar fee half gets donated to usark and everyone wins that was my solution

 

[Fangthane]

my solution was...

..an utterly useless idea that wouldn't have helped you, anyway. I don't recall seeing a single person who's read your threads coming forward to say that your contentions seem factual; that anything you've presented comes even close to proving your case; that Craig is in the wrong here. Given the overwhelming consensus here - and your refusal to fess up and piss off - it's pretty obvious that the idea you'd abide by this proposed-panel's decision is laughable. Many more than your 10 "reputable respected senior members" have weighed the evidence and found you wanting. If you really gave a damn about the idea you'd put forth, what more could you possibly need to see? You're quite obviously just trolling and attention-whoring.

 

[The Hairy Whale]

Jay, what I don't get is that you bash this forum, say it's one sided, belittle users, etc. And yet you want senior members or reputable members to decide, like an arbiter, the outcome of transaction issues? If you hate this place so much why even bother? This place is to show good and bad sellers and for those people to defend themselves in doing so. It's not a place for arbiters to decide the outcome of matters, that would be PayPal or whatever service you used (if the issue at hand is a refund).

If you were to provide a valid shred of evidence, your story would have been more solid. Instead you, like most scammers do, try to intimidate and belittle the opposite party to scare them when things don't go your way. Like I said, if you had provided proper evidence it would be a completely different story. Photos of the chams, videos of unboxings, vet bills (no vet I know of would assess multiple animals for free), or any other type of physical evidence, at the time of the reception, would have helped you.

 

[WebSlave]

my solution was a 10 person panel of reputable respected senior members

when a has a issue with b, A comes to fauna and messages b that he would like to settle this on fauna b responds both a and b sign a waiver saying they agree to abide by judges decision a and b present their case 10 panel judges decide who ever it was that requested the trial a or b pays the 25 dollar fee half gets donated to usark and everyone wins that was my solution

Sorry, but no. Both "A" and "B" would not be able to agree on the same 10 people whom they agree is "reputable" and "respectable". Each would want some of their own buddies on that panel, so no matter the outcome, they would claim that the panel is biased against them, and therefore non binding. The fact that the panel decided against them would be, in their mind, proof positive that the panel is "out to get them". Needless to say, most people wouldn't even agree to such a thing in the first place.

Besides, the waiver would be useless. How would it be enforced? Lawsuit? Yeah, right, I'm going to spend attorney fees and many hours of my time in order to try to enforce some sort of contract that will prove to be completely worthless.

And let's see, $12.50 divided by 10 gives each of those 10 members in the panel $1.25 for their efforts. Wonder how much that will work out to be per hour? Oh, and looky! Those panel members get to take on the liability of lawsuits because of their decisions! Lucky them! In 80 or 90 years, they might actually have a nestegg saved up to help pay attorney fees. Gee, people are certainly going to be beating down the doors for THAT job, I'll betcha.

You really haven't thought this through, have you? You SERIOUSLY think something of this nature has a chance in Hell of working?

Nope. I think the current method I have implemented of allowing the participants' potential peers and customers to come to their own conclusions provides a whole lot more incentive for people to do the right thing when it comes to doing business. Those who fail at that task then face the potential of just going out of business because their customer base has just evaporated on them.

In other words, everyone gets to make the bed they sleep in. That seems fair to me.

Anyway, I think we have discussed this oblique topic enough here. If you would like to continue this discussion about how I run this site, there is a forum available here for just that sort of topic matter. -> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Chris Stancel has expressed to me that he is disinclined to publicly discuss the services he has provided to a client in the context of a case since it runs counter to his concerns of confidentiality and professionalism.

The posting of the letters was Jay's choice. It would have been convenient if Chris would have come here himself to address this, but I understand his position and his current burdens are many. I have known him to be an immensely busy man both within his practice and beyond it.

The animals examined by Chris were stated to have come from Craig Wyatt by Jay Ciccone. Stated. Chris has also shared that Jay Ciccone showed him the shipping label for the chameleons sent by Craig Wyatt. Whether or not the animals came from any particular source is not something Chris is responsible for determining and he drafted the letters with the information he observed by examining the patients themselves along with the historical information attributed to Craig Wyatt by Jay Ciccone. The historical information's content and veracity are subject to provision by its source, of course.

 

[juliasara]

Never in my 30 something years of owning pets have I gotten a reciept or letter from the vet that doesn't have the date on it. I just looked back through my folder of vet stuff and most of them had the date in more than one place. Where's the date on the letters Jay posted? I'm on my phone so maybe I missed it but I couldn't find it anywhere. The date they saw the vet and those letters were written make a difference in this case. If they were taken to the vet within the first few days then it proves craig sold sick animals, if they didn't see the vet till Jay had them for a month or 2 then they prove nothing in my opinion.

 

[EdwardK]

One of the big elephants in the room regarding the vet visit was that Jay took "sick" animals to the vet but there wasn't a treatment plan documented in the letter. So that implies that Jay declined to treat sick animals. If the animals actually had "MBD" they should have been treated for it. If they were too ill to be treated successfully, then they should have been euthanized and documented with pictures and a necropsy.

I have a big problem with the omission of a treatment plan or euthanasia of sick animals as implies that they were left to suffer and die. That means that Jay would have had to decline humane treatment of the animals.

some comments

Ed

 

[Jay Sick]

One of the big elephants in the room regarding the vet visit was that Jay took "sick" animals to the vet but there wasn't a treatment plan documented in the letter. So that implies that Jay declined to treat sick animals. If the animals actually had "MBD" they should have been treated for it. If they were too ill to be treated successfully, then they should have been euthanized and documented with pictures and a necropsy.

I have a big problem with the omission of a treatment plan or euthanasia of sick animals as implies that they were left to suffer and die. That means that Jay would have had to decline humane treatment of the animals.

some comments

Ed

i will tolerate the constant questions i will tolerate the belittling but ill tell you right now if you think i will sit idle while you accuse me of mistreating animals you way of buddy your a disgusting person for assuming i would not treat them i gave them all the calcium supplements and what they needed i hand fed the 2 sick ones they just did not make it. yOUR VERY BOLD IN A NEW ACCUSATION YOUR ALSO PRETTY LOW TO ACCUSE ME OF EVER NOT TAKING CARE OF MY ANIMALS. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HOW I CARE FOR MY ANIMALS SO DON'T YOU DARE ASSUME ANYTHING NO YOUR JUST REACHING YOUR PATHETIC. IT WAS A GENERAL LETTER GENIUS AN OVER VIEW. BUT LIKE I SAID NO MATTER WHAT PROOF YAH STILL HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY YOU JUST AS BIG A PIECE OF TRASH AS CRAIG DON'T EVER ACCUSE ME OF MISTREATING MY ANIMALS YOU WASTE OF SPACE

 

[Jay Sick]

Never in my 30 something years of owning pets have I gotten a reciept or letter from the vet that doesn't have the date on it. I just looked back through my folder of vet stuff and most of them had the date in more than one place. Where's the date on the letters Jay posted? I'm on my phone so maybe I missed it but I couldn't find it anywhere. The date they saw the vet and those letters were written make a difference in this case. If they were taken to the vet within the first few days then it proves craig sold sick animals, if they didn't see the vet till Jay had them for a month or 2 then they prove nothing in my opinion.

ALL YOUR DOING IS REACHING FOR SOMETHING ELSE LOOK AT THE DATE ON THE LETTER JULY 7TH THE SAME DAY I RECEIVED THEM SINCE YOUR SO SMART SARAH. I HAVE PROVEN MY SELF TEN FOLD ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP.

 

[EdwardK]

You don't have to quarantine captive bred animals?
That is a naive statement, to make, and an irresponsible practice with newly arrived critters. smh

....

I'm going to have to say that Jay's claim of not needing to quarantine sick animals is pretty ridiculous as it is totally possible for an animal such as a chameleon to either carry a pathogen or parasite or contract one even if it has never been in contact with a wild caught animal. As an interesting example it was recently shown that not only can invertebrates such as insects be infected with reptile carried viruses (iridovirus group) but that reptiles can be infected with insect iridoviruses. See for example

Papp, Tibor, Dirk Spann, and Rachel E. Marschang. "Development and use of a real-time polymerase chain reaction for the detection of group II invertebrate iridoviruses in pet lizards and prey insects." Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 45.2 (2014): 219-227.

Just, F., et al. "Occurrence of an Invertebrate Iridescent‐Like Virus (Iridoviridae) in Reptiles." Journal of Veterinary Medicine, Series B 48.9 (2001): 685-694.

Weinmann, Nadine, et al. "Experimental infection of crickets (Gryllus bimaculatus) with an invertebrate iridovirus isolated from a high-casqued chameleon (Chamaeleo hoehnelii)." Journal of veterinary diagnostic investigation 19.6 (2007): 674-679.

and this is before we even discuss potential risks of cross infection at a show if someone handles another animal and then the chameleon or other animals at the vendors' table or more "typical" pathogens and parasites such as coccidians.

some comments

Ed

 

[OceanSpirit]

So I have a question. I'm still new to the reptile world. Up until very recently, I kept a couple of snakes as pets. It hasn't been long at all since I started actively participating in forums/FB groups regarding reptiles, as well as adding to my collection of balls by "internet order." I have been very fortunate--every seller I've done business with online has been straight-up and honest with me with the exception of one I found on a local reptile FB page. In the same vein, none of my snakes have been in need of vet care yet. As new as I am to the hobby of reptiles, I've spent quite a bit of my life with horses. There is a ton of fraud, thievery, animal doping, paper forgery, paper trading, and downright lying in the world of horses. Vet documentation has had to keep up with these issues, especially considering some of the communicable diseases and theft can be physically, emotionally, and financially devastating. To this end, most paperwork horse owners receive from their vets identifies the horse being presented by name and breed, but also by identifying markers such as weight, height, markings, and even teeth. Some documents, such as Coggins paperwork (proof that Coggins test has been conducted within that year and horse tested negative--required by law due to the easy spread and fatal nature of equine infectious anemia) requires that the vet draw markings and identifiable features on an illustration of a horse.

It seems to me that there isn't a lot of difference between horse trading and reptile trading--though the animals couldn't be more different, the people who work with them aren't. Given the fact that fraud, theft, lack of government attention, etc is prevalent in the breeding and sale of both species, it seems to me that vets would take similar precautions when working with reptile owners. I would think that before the doctor issued letters of this nature, he would have taken his own pictures and documented size/weight, color/morph, etc. I also know that the large/exotic animal vets I know wouldn't ever specify who I purchased an animal from unless he/she took a very active role in the sale/trade. Truth be told, they have no idea if I'm bringing in an animal I just purchased 2 days ago, or one that's been in my care for 2 years that the vet didn't have knowledge of. The most I would expect out of a vet under the circumstances presented here would be: "On blah blah date, Mr. Man presented # of chams who appeared to be underweight, showing signs of whatever disease, and general poor health. Of these chameleons, one was purple and looked like a T-Rex, the second was gold and asked me to pull his finger, and the third was 30 grams of cuteness and yellow light. It is my opinion that such-and-such medical problem may be present. Further testing would/would not be needed. All three animals should be on antibiotics and reseen in a month to document progress. Please see the attached photos which illustrate medical concerns and identifiable features." If the vet was willing to provide me with anything other than an invoice, chart records, and inoculation/testing docs at all.

Is that not the case with vets that specialize in reptiles? Do they not document identifying features and treatment plans/options?

 

[Jay Sick]

BOTTOM LINE IS VET SAW THEM THEY WERE SICK WHY DID CRAIG SEND ME SICK ANIMALS WHY DID HE SEND ME MBD ANIMALS START ASKING HIM THOSE QUESTIONS NOW THAT YOU ALL HAVE YOUR PROOF. REMEMBER I WAS BANNED FOR 30 DAYS THAT'S WHY YOUR ALL SEEING THIS NOW SO CRAIG PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION WHY DID YOU SEND ME MBD ANIMALS WHY DID YOU SEND ME SICK ANIMALS. ANSWER NOW CRAIG OR JUST TELL THE TRUTH THAT YOU DID THIS CAUSE YOU KNEW PEOPLE WOULD NOT BELIEVE ME CAUSE I WAS EASY TARGET YOUR ARE THE KING OF THE TRAILER PARK CRAIG PLAIN AND SIMPLE. I AM DONE WITH THIS NOW YOU CAN ALL SIT HERE AND COMEUP WITH 1000 DIFFERENT THEORY'S TO DISPROVE ME NONE OF WHICH WILL BE VALID CAUSE I ALREADY JUMPED THROUGH YOUR HOOPS.


Now what do you all have to say huh ?? what else you want ? you want me to res-erect the chams and ask them who put them in a box ?????

 

[Jay Sick]

I'm going to have to say that Jay's claim of not needing to quarantine sick animals is pretty ridiculous as it is totally possible for an animal such as a chameleon to either carry a pathogen or parasite or contract one even if it has never been in contact with a wild caught animal. As an interesting example it was recently shown that not only can invertebrates such as insects be infected with reptile carried viruses (iridovirus group) but that reptiles can be infected with insect iridoviruses. See for example

Papp, Tibor, Dirk Spann, and Rachel E. Marschang. "Development and use of a real-time polymerase chain reaction for the detection of group II invertebrate iridoviruses in pet lizards and prey insects." Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 45.2 (2014): 219-227.

Just, F., et al. "Occurrence of an Invertebrate Iridescent‐Like Virus (Iridoviridae) in Reptiles." Journal of Veterinary Medicine, Series B 48.9 (2001): 685-694.

Weinmann, Nadine, et al. "Experimental infection of crickets (Gryllus bimaculatus) with an invertebrate iridovirus isolated from a high-casqued chameleon (Chamaeleo hoehnelii)." Journal of veterinary diagnostic investigation 19.6 (2007): 674-679.

and this is before we even discuss potential risks of cross infection at a show if someone handles another animal and then the chameleon or other animals at the vendors' table or more "typical" pathogens and parasites such as coccidians.

some comments

Ed

keep reaching ed

 

[EdwardK]

i gave them all the calcium supplements and what they needed i hand fed the 2 sick ones they just did not make it

This little section here implies to me that you didn't accept the vets treatment recommendation (if one was made) because depending on the root cause of "MBD" (there is more than one path to a "MBD" result), more than calcium supplements are needed to stabilize the problem. This is why a more comprehensive workup should have been documented.

With respect to forcefeeding since there wasn't a necropsy performed on the animals how do you know that you didn't cause aspiration pneumonia?

Your still not coming across as reliable.

some comments

Ed