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Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes.
I have made no accusations what so ever.
I do not know why you would purchase animals that you expected to be ill. That does not ring true. You certainly are accusing them of selling sick animals, in your own words.
For those who want to question silly details of timing of vet visits

Joe
When one decides to take a critter to a vet is highly relevant for a number of reasons. If the illness is substantial and vet care has been delayed, a timeline could call into question whether or not the seller was involved or whether the illness came from intervening factors.
Relevant questioning is part of what makes the BOI works as well as it does. Putting the hush on people and attempts to forcibly march them to a preordained conclusion not only doesn't work well here, it calls into question the motivation of those trying to force their conclusion on others.
 
Is the OP banned now? Huh. While I support anyone bringing forward issues such as this in good faith, the OP sure developed an attitude problem in the past several posts.
 
OP sure developed an attitude problem in the past several posts.
Can't imagine how someone who feels that he's acted in good faith could eventually get pissed off over repeatedly having his motives questioned in a situation where the vindictiveness being suggested lacks even the flimsiest contextual support. It'll go alongside the other great mysteries of our time - an enigma to rival the age-old question of why the tides go in and out. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks Nick, maybe he'll choose to come back.

I tend to agree with you Fang; I was speaking more in general terms. I would like to believe the OP has only good intentions, but his behavior is beginning to look....less that way. Maybe he will take some time to read on what has been posted, think about it and reply a little more calmly and without resorting to name calling and getting all ruffled that anyone disagrees or comes to different conclusions.
 
My personal opinion as to what might be happening in the background, I think there is probably good reason why the OP is suddenly anxious to claim he never made any accusations.

Do you actually believe there is even a remote chance that Joe is concerned that Underground will sue him? Do you find it telling that most of his real detractors in this thread sell snakes and are concerned that they will lose money from loss of business? The potential threat of SFD goes well beyond commercial interests. This disease can wipe out snake populations in the wild. If Joe proves to be correct about the SFD, he performed a valuable service. If Joe proves wrong about the SFD, I have no doubt he will fess up and take his medicine.
 
Wow. You should consider suing whoever taught you reading comprehension in grade school. No one, ever, said Underground shouldn't be shipping animals. As has been stated repeatedly, this post was to inform people that snakes shipped from Underground may be infected (in my opinion and that of my vet) and that we need feedback from anyone who has bought snakes from them regarding the health of the animals purchased.

The rest of that stuff you just made up in your head guy.

Maybe you can get your hands on some breathing salts?

For someone who's trying to paint himself as a "good guy" you sure do get defensive when anyone questions you. Calling people names is a great way to prove how much of a Good Samaritan you are I've found, you should definitely keep it up. You're more than welcome to look into my educational background if you think that's the issue here; I think you'll find it more than adequate :).

So just to be clear, this thread was made to inform people that snakes sent by underground MIGHT be sick (based on your opinion and the vets...which of course means such a huge amount given zero test results). Is that why you stated very specifically that they sent you sick snakes (no question made, it was a statement made by you as Lucille has quoted).

Funny that's your argument now. Did you forget the very first post you made?


"Hello all - I bought new born water snakes from Underground Reptiles this summer. They have developed a disease that vets have speculated is Snake Fungal Disease (SFD).

I have spent $185 testing one of the snakes for the disease. If you're not familiar with it, SFD is a contagious, potentially lethal fungal disease that is killing wild snakes, as well as captives. It has no known cure.

I have had others tell me they bought snakes from Underground Reptiles that died with symptoms similar to SFD."

So you're not saying it's SFD, just that it's most likely SFD and a bunch of other people have also had snakes with the same symptoms that died. There is no cure and regardless, whatever disease it is, it without question originated at UR (your words). Where are all of those other people?

I think you're right, my reading comprehension must just be abysmal, because to me it doesn't sound like there's a lot of questioning going on here. You are STATING your snake has SFD based on your opinion and are STATING multiple other people have had theirs die from similar symptoms (again, who are these people and why haven't they verified your claims?).

You say that no one said underground shouldn't be shipping out any animals. I guess this statement you made on page one is slightly out of place then:

"If a relatively big dealer is sending dangerously infected snakes all over the country its really a bigger deal than just good guy / bad guy."

So since the point of this thread is to save the world (or whatever nonsense reason you're trying to play off), what is the solution to underground "sending dangerously infected snakes all over the country" if not that they stop shipping animals? You obviously consider yourself more intelligent than me, so maybe you can help to clear up what you meant, since my feeble little brain only managed to comprehend it how it was written. If this is an incurable, lethal disease that wipes out entire species, and you're claiming that underground has it in their stock, what solution is possible other than the one that you already blatantly implied?

For someone who had better hope and pray that they receive definitive test results proving this is SFD and that it without a shred of doubt came from underground reptiles, you're the last person who should be talking about suing people. Personally I'd recommend finding an attorney for yourself sooner than later, because if UR can prove they're not responsible, and you made this thread about them without even a shred of proof, you're going to be in for a wild ride. I can't even imagine what sort of a price you can value this level of libel at.

Keep your fingers crossed that you're right. That's all I can say at this point.
 
Can't imagine how someone who feels that he's acted in good faith could eventually get pissed off over repeatedly having his motives questioned in a situation where the vindictiveness being suggested lacks even the flimsiest contextual support. It'll go alongside the other great mysteries of our time - an enigma to rival the age-old question of why the tides go in and out. :rolleyes:

Someone who feels he has acted in good faith yet has failed to substantiate any of his claims, has yet to have these "several other people who had snakes die" come here to verify that statement (but has continued to make anonymous third party claims throughout this entire thread), and when people ask him to provide proof he gets defensive and calls them names. You're right dan, he has "good guy" written all over him :rofl:
 
Someone who feels he has acted in good faith yet has failed to substantiate any of his claims, has yet to have these "several other people who had snakes die" come here to verify that statement (but has continued to make anonymous third party claims throughout this entire thread), and when people ask him to provide proof he gets defensive and calls them names. You're right dan, he has "good guy" written all over him :rofl:

There has been ONE person come forward, I know that is not multiple but it is not NONE either.
I have no axe in this fight, which is what it has boiled down to.
I hope the op does come back and provide some light on lab results which should help matters no end.
 
You're correct, one person came that was not even related to the OP. The pictures posted by her (Logan) do not appear to be even remotely similar to those posted by the OP in my opinion. Her snake actually looks very healthy.

I'm wondering where the multiple people are that the OP referred to. He's had plenty of time to tell them about this thread, and as mad as he gets that people question him you'd think he'd love nothing more than to get these other owners here to run it in the face of all of us nay-Sayers.
 
I'm not sure how well these pictures will show up but these are examples of SFD as exemplified on one of the links the OP provided as proof that it has wiped out 100% of IL populations (which it didn't state at all, but that's beside the point).

I'm not a vet, but none of the pictures I've seen from the OP or Logan look even remotely close to this.
 

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I'm not sure Underground could really sue as Joe said he speculated it could be SFD, not that it was, and he had the opinion of someone who has seen SFD in the wilds plus a vet backing this up that it could be SFD and testing is in order. However, I think it's reasonable that Underground would not comment without consulting an attorney given the seriousness of the claim to harm their business. From my limited reading, the fungus can grow on things besides snakes so anything brought in the infected areas, plants, logs, etc, could also contain spores. I live in an infected area and have found wild snakes hibernating in my basement and this is a relatively new home well sealed. The fact is this disease is going to be a threat from now on and it's already too late to stop it.
 
I'm not sure Underground could really sue as Joe said he speculated it could be SFD, not that it was, and he had the opinion of someone who has seen SFD in the wilds plus a vet backing this up that it could be SFD and testing is in order. However, I think it's reasonable that Underground would not comment without consulting an attorney given the seriousness of the claim to harm their business. From my limited reading, the fungus can grow on things besides snakes so anything brought in the infected areas, plants, logs, etc, could also contain spores. I live in an infected area and have found wild snakes hibernating in my basement and this is a relatively new home well sealed. The fact is this disease is going to be a threat from now on and it's already too late to stop it.

If the fungus thought potentially causative here can live well enough on environmental materials, it may be difficult to show that Underground is the source by way of this distant testing. I am not saying it is or is not this fungus and I am not saying it did or did not come from the alleged source if it is found/identified in the samples taken, but there is an element of plausible deniability here if the suspected pathogen can be introduced to the received animals via contaminated caging materials.



http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585531
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou View Post
If the fungus thought potentially causative here can live well enough on environmental materials, it may be difficult to show that Underground is the source by way of this distant testing. I am not saying it is or is not this fungus and I am not saying it did or did not come from the alleged source if it is found/identified in the samples taken, but there is an element of plausible deniability here if the suspected pathogen can be introduced to the received animals via contaminated caging materials.



http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=585531
I agree.






Quote:
Originally Posted by snakesareawesome View Post
I'm not sure Underground could really sue as Joe said he speculated it could be SFD, not that it was, and he had the opinion of someone who has seen SFD in the wilds plus a vet backing this up that it could be SFD and testing is in order. However, I think it's reasonable that Underground would not comment without consulting an attorney given the seriousness of the claim to harm their business. From my limited reading, the fungus can grow on things besides snakes so anything brought in the infected areas, plants, logs, etc, could also contain spores. I live in an infected area and have found wild snakes hibernating in my basement and this is a relatively new home well sealed. The fact is this disease is going to be a threat from now on and it's already too late to stop it.
SFD and any speculations aside, Joe directly accused Underground of selling sick snakes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes.
After having said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
Of the 9 that I received (invoice says 7, I know) all but one appeared initially healthy. Only one was a bit thin. But all ate well and were alert, active snakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
I bought a group of water snakes from Underground Reptiles this summer. It was a small order for them but they spent time with me, answered all my questions, shipped exactly what I ordered, and followed up with a phone call to check on the snakes.

They move a lot of inventory, much of it wild caught, so you have to understand who / what your dealing with. But with that in mind, I think they did a very good job with this order of mine.

Joe Monahan
If one is speculating and does not know exactly what is going on or where the symptoms came from, making a direct accusation to Underground of selling sick snakes was not a good idea and cannot be unsaid.

I agree with all those that have said that we need to read, research, and be very careful with husbandry. But we do not need to be making careless accusations.
 
Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou View Post
If the fungus thought potentially causative here can live well enough on environmental materials, it may be difficult to show that Underground is the source by way of this distant testing. I am not saying it is or is not this fungus and I am not saying it did or did not come from the alleged source if it is found/identified in the samples taken, but there is an element of plausible deniability here if the suspected pathogen can be introduced to the received animals via contaminated caging materials.



http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=585531
I agree.






Originally Posted by snakesareawesome View Post
I'm not sure Underground could really sue as Joe said he speculated it could be SFD, not that it was, and he had the opinion of someone who has seen SFD in the wilds plus a vet backing this up that it could be SFD and testing is in order. However, I think it's reasonable that Underground would not comment without consulting an attorney given the seriousness of the claim to harm their business. From my limited reading, the fungus can grow on things besides snakes so anything brought in the infected areas, plants, logs, etc, could also contain spores. I live in an infected area and have found wild snakes hibernating in my basement and this is a relatively new home well sealed. The fact is this disease is going to be a threat from now on and it's already too late to stop it.
SFD and any speculations aside, Joe directly accused Underground of selling sick snakes:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes.
After having said this:

Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
Of the 9 that I received (invoice says 7, I know) all but one appeared initially healthy. Only one was a bit thin. But all ate well and were alert, active snakes.
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
I bought a group of water snakes from Underground Reptiles this summer. It was a small order for them but they spent time with me, answered all my questions, shipped exactly what I ordered, and followed up with a phone call to check on the snakes.

They move a lot of inventory, much of it wild caught, so you have to understand who / what your dealing with. But with that in mind, I think they did a very good job with this order of mine.

Joe Monahan
If one is speculating and does not know exactly what is going on or where the symptoms came from, making a direct accusation to Underground of selling sick snakes was not a good idea and cannot be unsaid.

I agree with all those that have said that we need to read, research, and be very careful with husbandry. But we do not need to be making careless accusations.
 
You're correct, one person came that was not even related to the OP. The pictures posted by her (Logan) do not appear to be even remotely similar to those posted by the OP in my opinion. Her snake actually looks very healthy.

I agree, my snake does look much better than the OP's snakes. However, she is displaying odd physical symptoms that, at their worst, are identical to some of the symptoms on the OP's animals. The white bumps are odd - from the moment they appeared, I knew they were odd. After researching any and all skin/scale issues I could find reference to, I just didn't have a good comparison, so I took a "wait and see" approach. That changed after I saw the OP's images. Are they as bad as the ones on his animals? No - they are not. I admit that readily. Is my snake displaying the other symptoms? No - not at this point. But the bumps are the same, and that's enough to make me take the issue seriously no matter the cause.

I'm not saying that I think this is SFD. I don't know what this is, and I'm hoping after my vet visit tomorrow and after the results come in I'll know a bit more. It just struck me as coincidental that he and I both purchased baby water snakes from the same seller at the same time that are showing very similar symptoms that I haven't seen anywhere else (I'm speaking to my snake's issue specifically here).

Until the results come in from both the OP's tests and the tests I'm having done tomorrow, I'm reserving judgement.
 
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