Bad Guy John Michael Martino aka John Michael Reptile. New York Long Island.

[shel.c]

I received a beautiful baby Burmese Star Tortoise from John Martino in perfect health however I am disappointed with his business practices post purchase as far as providing a half certificate. I made a certificate one to help make the process easier for him so all he needed to do is write the date and sign. However, he refused and since then he deleted the contact information in his website and removed the Burmese Star Tortoise selling thread.


January 20th, 2017
I received a beautiful baby Burmese Star Tortoise - Gillian, from John Martino. Because it is a thousand dollars purchase, I suggested to bring her to vet for body check right after I picked her up and if there is any serious health issues he can make a refund, return or share the medicine bill. But he refused, however I really like this little girl so i bought her eventually.

February 10th to 17th, 2017
I have an intention of breeding Burmese star tortoise in the future in order to raise the population of this species. So I was planning to get another one from John Martino. At the time I thought Burmese Star Tortoise is on Cities two list, but actually they are CITIES one. So before I purchase the second one from John, i asked if he can sign a CBB certificate for me, just in case if Burmese will be added to ESA in the future and it'll be difficult to get cities permit. Then he started to give me attitude, sent me 2 pictures of Gillian's parent and told me the hatch date is November 21th, 2016.

I thought he misunderstood something so i made a certificate paper for him at 12pm. And he didn't respond my msg, then i found out that he was ignoring me, because when i used another phone number to text and he replied quickly.
An hour later he took down his contact information on his website and deleted the Burmese star tortoise sale thread. Then messaged me back and claimed he is done with me and not going to do any further business with me. He always said my English improved a lot in just a night, also said that I was being offensive and my attitude is bad.


So I don't understand why he doesn't want to sign the certificate, I think a reputable breeder would be more than willing to provide a captive hatch/birth certificate for the new owners records! Especially for a rare species. I started to doubt if Gillan really a cbb Burmese or not....

 

[shel.c]

He just gave me half certificate without his name and address etc...., and i sent him mine... but he ignores my msg...

 

[shel.c]

and i found out that he deleted the ccb TSF Burmese star tortoise thread and removed his contact info on his website.

Also, he was online at 2:30pm, and my girlfriend also texted him. He was just ignoring my msg. I asked for the certificate politely before getting another Burmese from him.... this dude..

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

CITES will be irrelevant here since they (platynota) are CITES-1 and you are not moving them into or out of the country.

The ESA is not in effect for this species, but if it ever gets added to the ES list and there comes a time where you want to buy, sell, or trade (execute commercial activity that is not a breeding loan or something) between states, there is then the application for a CBW (Captive Born Wildlife) permit. I am skipping over any grandfathering argument here, too.

The makeshift certificate you are asking for is not necessary to apply for a CBW permit if that time ever comes for this species.

 

[shel.c]

Even it is not necessary, I just want more paperwork for future use. And the thing is, this certificate is to prove that the Burmese Star Tortoise is a CBB from him. But the problem is why he refused to do that ?

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

The certificate would not prove it is CBB. It would state it. Not exactly the same.

That said, John Martino does produce platynota from his adults.

Not sure why he would or would not do the certificate, but it is not the norm in the chelonian corner of the hobby, so maybe he felt it unusual (and unnecessary). For instance, he could be worried that someone might try to justify a smuggled animal down the road using a certificate with his name and so forth on it. Even if you are totally above board, that would spring into my mind if someone asked me for such a thing.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I'll refrain from this thread as I am biased. I voted for that "awful" guy Trump. Lol. I'll just say good luck.

 

[johnmartino]

Lets go over a few things as i will not be going back and forth with you.

The first thing you want to address is bringing her to a vet. I said you could bring her to a vet. After you told me you had multiple other tortoises i declined to offer any conditions on her. What you do with her, who you put her with, or how you care for her after i sell her to you is out of my control. I then agreed to drive 45 minutes out of my way to meet with you so you could handle her and give her a good going over in person. You accepted, were happy, and went on your way. Good transaction i thought?

Now almost a month later you are badgering me for paperwork. You have contacted me numerous times in less than 24 hrs demanding paperwork that is nether necessary, nor the norm in the industry. All this time i am dealing with a loss and you don't stop. I said i would send it you. Not only wasn't that good enough, but you decided to start sending me certificates and links and long texts asking for something i said i would send. And yes, when someone starts sending me links to my website with my address and pressuring me non stop i start to get a little apprehensive. Yes, i deleted my info, i felt you were becoming a stalker and were acting shady. When we first met you were a nice guy who then seemed to go to a very pushy guy to the point of sending me pdf files demanding I docusign them? At this point you were really making me uneasy, i felt something was up and you were looking to do something illegal with the tortoise? Maybe try and ship it out of the country? Idk you kept asking about cities? But having your girlfriend message me in addition to screen shotting my location doesn't really speak to not being shady so i feel my suspicions were correct. And again all this was going on as i was dealing with a LOSS OF A FRIEND! Your response to that? Accusing me of being a poacher and a smuggler! So you my friend can go ahead and enjoy your CBB Burmese Star tortoise as I'm done dealing with you. And I would precaution anyone else from dealing with you as you are a rude, offensive, irrational person. Good day sir!

 

[shel.c]

***The contents of this post have been removed because the person posting them is not the author and failed to provide adequate attribution, thereby leaving it an anonymous third-party quotation despite more than enough warning and time provided to avoid this. - Nick A***

 

[shel.c]

I accidentally posted my friends private message to me in regard to the actual response below:

Since English is not my first language, I had a friend assist me in writing this response so that I can be understood as clearly as possible.

John, let me start by saying I am sorry for your loss. I do apologize for my impatience. The tortoise was a lot of money and with the anticipation of getting another one from you I did want to have some sort of hatch record on file for the future. I have purchased other animals in the past where the sellers have given signed certificates with photo identification and lineage of the parents and the purchased animal(s). I would have hoped that with such an uncommon and valuable species that you would happily provide the same. When you seemed hesitant, I became worried about the source of my tortoise. The more we exchanged texts, the more it appeared that you may be unwilling to provide anything, however I may have misunderstood your intent. I put together a hatch certificate using the photos of the parents as you sent me, along with the photo of the actual tortoise I purchased from you because I thought you may have misunderstood what I was looking for. I figured that sending you the certificate would make things easier for you if we were not understanding one another. I became overwhelmed with concern as our communication continued. I am trying to be as responsible as possible in regards to maintaining good records on my animals. I do care deeply about the status of this species and know that record keeping is imperative for the future.

From reading the BOI, it is clear that you have an outstanding history and reputation. I wish we hadn't run into a disagreement over paperwork. If we can please come to some sort of agreement of misunderstanding and I could get something in writing similar to the example certificate I sent you, I would greatly appreciate it and we can both happily move forward. My tortoise IS stunning and completely healthy. With some documentation for my own records, I would be more than happy to purchase from you again and/or recommend you to others.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Watch the profanity, please.

Ball pythons are not directly relevant to tortoises since ball python common practices may not be common for chelonians. The relevance of the ball python practice is in relation to morphs. Both visual/apparent morphs and animals which are heterozygous for recessive morph alleles. The bulk of people working with chelonian morphs do not give photographic lineage documents. The majority of these animals look very similar, too, and change shape as they grow to maturity, making that type of documentation of limited value. Individuals in a clutch of caramel pink scripta elegans or albino sulcata look almost identical as neonates and blur from their original forms as they eventually (hopefully) progress into adulthood. The patterns of ball pythons and boas which are het for recessive morph alleles make this very different, as these identifying marks persist to a much greater degree. Imagine trying to do the same with pattern-progressing (and fading) animals like guttata, carolina, hamiltonii, or pardalis. A hatchling of one of these will rarely show any individual-maintained identifying characteristics relative to the adult form.

I know of a couple of star sellers who offer(ed) or tend(ed) to send photographic records of lineage. It is/was nice and it is/was interesting (as well as convenient for bloodline tracking), but not the standard even among the many star sellers. There are many who do no such thing. Radiated sellers have some among them who offer such things, too, and that is also nice, but -again- the majority do not. For many (if not most) of us, the option to keep a copy of the ad, photos exchanged, and communications between parties is enough of a paper trail.

It is within bounds for you to request that sellers provide these things to you. It is also within bounds for a seller to not provide these things as a matter of course. If it is a problem for a buyer, the buyer is free to shop elsewhere. Across the bulk of chelonian sellers in the US, this photographic certificate practice is not performed.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

OP, you will need to identify the person who owns the words in post #9 or have the person self-identify to avoid the possibilities of infraction or removal.

 

[tlmoon]

Chun, you are looking like the unreasonable person here. I don't see that John Martino did anything wrong. You decided you wanted paperwork after the fact which is not normal practice for transactions for these animals, and is not even appropriate for the situation (CITES). Then you attacked the guy publicly on the BOI when he didn't immediately jump up and do what you wanted.

I don't keep torts so my opinion may be irrelevant, but based on this thread I wouldn't hesitate to buy from John, but I would not want to buy or sell with you. The BOI can work both ways, you know....if you aren't reasonable and go on the attack, you show yourself as someone others won't want to work with. Just saying....

 

[DavidBeard]

Chun, you are looking like the unreasonable person here. I don't see that John Martino did anything wrong. You decided you wanted paperwork after the fact which is not normal practice for transactions for these animals, and is not even appropriate for the situation (CITES). Then you attacked the guy publicly on the BOI when he didn't immediately jump up and do what you wanted.

I don't keep torts so my opinion may be irrelevant, but based on this thread I wouldn't hesitate to buy from John, but I would not want to buy or sell with you. The BOI can work both ways, you know....if you aren't reasonable and go on the attack, you show yourself as someone others won't want to work with. Just saying....

No doubt. The OP here seems like a nightmare seller to deal with and a massive headache. Zero reason to ask for that paperwork after the fact....if it was that big a deal, it should've been brought up before the transaction completed.

 

[Mistyck]

OP, if you wanted such paperwork and documentation, then you should have brought that to the attention of the seller BEFORE the transaction took place. As he does not provide paperwork like you are asking for arbitrarily. You accepted the deal as it was, yet later changed what you wanted after the deal had already been complete. You waited beyond a reasonable amount of time to demand that the seller give you paperwork, and when he didn't comply in YOUR time-frame you blasted him. Which there was no reason for doing or being demanding of in the first place.

You haven't accomplished anything in this thread, other than to make yourself look like a demanding buyer who can't be satisfied.

 

[Mistyck]

No doubt. The OP here seems like a nightmare seller to deal with and a massive headache. Zero reason to ask for that paperwork after the fact....if it was that big a deal, it should've been brought up before the transaction completed.

I assume you meant to type buyer instead of seller? As the OP was the purchaser not the seller.

 

[DavidBeard]

I assume you meant to type buyer instead of seller? As the OP was the purchaser not the seller.

Exactly, lol. I meant buyer for sure.

 

[LauraB]

^^^ What Theresa, Brandi and David said (taking into consideration David's admitted mistake). I see no real "bad guy" here, but I see an unreasonable buyer who seemed to be happy with the animal received, but decided the seller was a bad guy due to the lack of paperwork, AFTER completion of the transaction of an acceptable, healthy animal as advertised. Yeah, makes sense.

 

[shel.c]

Like i said, I am disappointed with his business practices post purchase.
(1) John Martino said "you are badgering me for paperwork" what do you mean badgering? I told you that I want to breed Burmese in future, i even told you i love to working on conservation so i don't want to get in any trouble.I was ASKING in a politely way not BADGERING, and i explained to you why i need to get a certificate from you. (you guys can look over the pictures, it's on post #1)

(2) After i explained what i am concerned , you text me back : okay i will get you a sign letter with a hatch date and i will send you pics of the parents? Fair enough? when would you like to meet?
I feel like he start to give me attitude ( English is not my first language, maybe you guys don't feel that way. i do)

(3)So i told him i have to ask my friend to give me a ride (He knows i don;t have a car),and i asked him can you please sign me the letter before getting new Burmese?
2 minutes later he sent me 2 pictures and wrote hatched by me 11/21/2016.
I was like ... what are you doing? I told you I need your address, name and signature and you said okay you are going to do that... but now you just send me a pic with a sentence? are you misunderstood something?
I start to think.... is that a CBB Burmese.....?

(4)One day later, i made a certificate, ask for his email and signature, but he didn't reply.
I start to worry about my tortoise is from the wild, like i said i want to work on conservation and i REALLY DON'T WANT TO TAKE ANY ANIMALS FROM THE WILD. so i am kinda worry and say "Maybe the tortoise is not captive breed right?"
John Martino finally text me back, and say I'm done with you.... and he refused to sign, and later, we start to argue.

I think you guys misunderstand something, I am not asking for a Certificate after purchase.
I am asking for certificate before a new purchase, and he promised to sign one for me. but he didn't. and saying i am a crazy stalker ...

 

[shel.c]

typing in my own word, please forgive my grammar mistake. Thank you guys