Bad Guy Dan Grubb, Problem Customer

[hhmoore]

The whole "same condition in which we sent them out" requirement is pretty much crap, IMO, since there seems to have been some difference of opinion on what the condition was when they arrived at Dan's. While there is no complaint of them not being frozen, which would be the most common source of a real problem with frozen rodents, they were said to be discolored; but the OP insists that they were pink. My guess is that the OP was confident that there was nothing wrong with the pinks, and planned to either use or resell them. While I think asking for their return was unusual, the complaint didn't appear to be that the pinks arrived in unusable condition.
[I've only had two problems with frozen rodent orders - and the second was with my most recent order (from a company I had never used before). One bag was completed thawed and unusable, the others were soft at the bottom, but (IMO) salvageable. I contacted the company, and they immediately offered to replace the order. My response was that I would be satisfied with them replacing the 1 bad bag, and that they could include those in my next order. They thanked me for my honest appraisal and reasonable solution offer...and proceeded to send me out a full replacement order. They've got a satisfied customer that will not only give them repeat business, but recommend them highly.]
Now, on to the other issue. Dan's statement in his post creates a bit of a different picture. By his post here, it seems that the pinkies didn't turn to mush when defrosted, but that they burst when he scented them with lizards. I suspect that there are a few factors that come into play that affect the defrosted condition of pinks...but I can definitely say that I've defrosted & fed a lot of pinks that would not have stood up to scenting. I can easily believe both parties claims...Dan's being that the pinks didn't work for him, and Isis' being that they have sold and personally used pinks from that same supply without problem.

Isis - just curious. Were these pinks that you processed yourself? Did they come from a local supplier (or suppliers)? Or were they from one of the bigger frozen rodent dealers. I'm not asking you to name your sources, but there is definitely a point to my question.

 

[Kingetula]

Mike did not make me aware that he was planning to attempt to ruin my name with future customers.

Dan

Ouch!

 

[morphevolutions]

IMO anyone that would agree to send back ruined frozen pinkies AND pay for the shipping to do so seems like a pretty reasonable person to me.

And I agree, how is this a BOI thread? The buyer received something, did not like it, returned product and paid for shipping? What else could he possibly have done other than accept an unacceptable product? (apparently)

I would not worry about your reputation due to this thread. IMO, the OP should worry a lot more. Why would I want to buy from them? If I'm not happy with their product, they are going to throw my name around a public forum? lol

Call Chris at Big Cheese. He'll take care of you and will not throw your name around if something goes wrong.

 

[Kingetula]

Funny how the OP has never said a word after the original post.

 

[MikeCurtin]

This is kind of surprising and seems petty coming from Isis. I had heard nothing but good things about them, and I too feel this thread was unwarranted.

 

[deborahbroadus]

They are reading at 8:13 pm today. Probably seeing which way the wind is going to blow. They may now regret having been impetious.

 

[John E Dove]

A strip of 1inch of the foam box was exposed but I did not think that would effect the pinks since they were in styrafoam box with ice packs.
Dan Grubb

Mr. Grubb,
Like others I do not feel you did anything wrong here and agree there should be no bad guy thread. This all seems kind of silly to me. I cannot imagine someone wanting their bad rodent shipment back, but that is just me.

Since it does not seem that Ms.(Isis?)/Mr. Madec is going to reply to my inquiry on how the pinks were kept frozen when shipping them to you perhaps you can tell me if ice packs were used when they were shipped to you?

 

[hhmoore]

Well, Isis Reptiles has viewed this thread at least 2 separate times since I posted my question, as well. Since they aren't responding, I'll post my reason for asking:
As I mentioned, I have thawed plenty of pinks over the years - pinks obtained from a variety of sources. What I have found is that the discolored, or "black bellied", ones have often been thawed & refrozen OR frozen more slowly. This sometimes happens when people count and package frozen pinks (if they don't put each bag directly into the freezer); or when somebody harvests pinks, then counts and packages them before freezing. The discolored pinks tend to be softer when thawed, and they don't generally stand up to much physical abuse before they just come apart.
The bigger rodent suppliers harvest & "flash freeze" the pinks, so there is less degradation.

 

[dangerdan]

I would appreciate if Mike would erase this thread.

Now when my name is googled, this article comes up. This really bums me out. Seriously Mike no hard feelings just erase this post. I do not want my name associated with bad guy. Maybe if you email admin they will erase it. Since this is so specific that you have to use first and last name I am so bummed because I have worked hard to always do the right thing with a reptile deal and now over $115 dollars Mike has ruined my name which is exactly what he did not want me to do to him and Isis reptiles.

Dan

 

[Cat_72]

Unfortunately Dan, once it's here, it's here to stay....Mike has no ability to erase it.

If anyone does google your name and come up with this thread, they should be able to take a quick look at it and see that you've done nothing wrong, though. If I were had taken the time to Google someone, I'm surely going to take the time to read the results, you know? (As long as it isn't one of those 248 page threads, lol...then I might skim through it)

At the least, I do think you are owed an apology, however.

 

[deborahbroadus]

At the very LEAST an apology is the most that Isis Reptiles could do to rectify matters!

I am no stranger to going off "half-cocked." I think we have all done that at one time or another. However, Isis Reptiles as a business (not personal) needs to remember that while they haven't managed to make Dan a bad guy, they have cast a shadow on their own name, by letting this drag on and not being polite enough to answer questions.

IMO, while the "disagreement" is at this stage, an apology (before too much time goes by) will do much to redeem their own name. As it is..if this post is left with no apology forthcoming, then they have cast a shadow on their own name and business practices.

 

[Kingetula]

Sorry Dan but this needs to stay here to show everyone what happens if you buy pinkies from ISIS REPTILES and have a problem with pinkies. (On that note I understand why you would want this removed, so would I)

Just stick with a quality pinkie dealer who will not trip out because you got a bad batch. ISIS Reptiles only hurt themselves IMO; you're damn straight I will not buy pinkies from them. If I don't like them I'm stuck! I either eat the $115.00 in bad pinkies or my name is plastered all over faunaclassifieds!

On that note if I was looking you up Dan it's not like I would see the title of this post and say, "oh Dan is a bad guy" and leave it at that. I would read the whole thing to see why and judge for myself. I would do business with you.

 

[tpalopoli]

From their site:

"In order for any adjustments to be made, we must be notified within 4 hours of delivery if there is a problem or if you are not satisfied with your animals(s). If we are not notified within 4 hours of delivery, we are released of all liability. This applies to both live animals and frozen rodents. Shipping on any returns will be paid by customer. In the case of refunds, only the cost of the animal(s) will be refunded. Shipping costs are nonrefundable."

they need to add:

"Additionally we will assume you are a liar, make you ship the animal(s) back (even if they are mush) and then trash your reputation across the internet. Oh and dont screw up with the shipping either moron."

Tom

 

[MikeRusso]

WOW, I am in a very tough spot here... I am good friends with Dan and I am also good friends with Mike & Isis. And, I have done business with both parties as well.

I want to start off by saying that I have not spoken to either party regarding this issue.

For those of you that do not know Dan Grubb, he has been keeping and breeding reptiles for many years and I am 100% positive he knows how to tell the difference between good and bad pinks. I am also sure that he would not lie about the pinks being bad and go through the hassle of mailing pinks back for a silly $100.

I also know that Mike and Isis are very nice, trustworthy, and reasonable people who have been herpers for many years and I have never heard anything negative about them from anyone. I can say with confidence that this situation is out of character for Mike & Isis. Actually, I was very surprised when I first read their original post..

That being said, I have to agree with several of you... This issue was rectified when the pinks were accepted back and should have remained offline. But, unfortunately it's too late for that now. I am sure we have ALL typed things in anger that we may regret later and I think that may be the case here with the original post.

Hopefully, after Mike & Isis read these follow up posts and given some time to re consider the details of this failed transaction they will return and explain why they felt the need for the original post and be forgiven by the masses here on the BOI.

~ Mike Russo

 

[SPJ]

This issue was rectified when the pinks were accepted back and should have remained offline. But, unfortunately it's too late for that now. I am sure we have ALL typed things in anger that we may regret later and I think that may be the case here with the original post.

Hopefully, after Mike & Isis read these follow up posts and given some time to re consider the details of this failed transaction they will return and explain why they felt the need for the original post and be forgiven by the masses here on the BOI.

~ Mike Russo

Sounds like that may be what happened. With the economy the way it is, Mike may have been really ticked off about the way this deal went and vented.

Maybe he will revisit this thread with a more level headed look at it and put this to rest.

 

[Isis Reptiles]

To address the questions that have come up:

1. We raise our own rodents. The pinks came from our cages and were harvested and frozen by us. We froze these in anticipation of using them for our own hatchlings, but found we had more than we would need and offered the surplus for sale.

2. How we ship: We only ship frozen rodents locally in the Southern California area. It's inexpensive and the package arrives the next day. We use a one-piece styrofoam box inside of a cardboard box. Pinkies and fuzzies are wrapped in freezer paper as this helps to keep them frozen longer. We do not use dry ice. We use either conventional ice inside of ziploc bags or we use the refreezable gel ice packs. In this particular shipment the gel ice packs were used. Ice and rodents are packed into the box with crumpled newspaper or shredded paper to make the box as airless as possible in order to retain the cold.

3. We normally would not ask for return of frozen rodents, but did so in this particular instance because we wanted to see for ourselves what exactly was wrong with them. As I stated before, we have had no other complaints about them and have been using them ourselves without any problems whatsoever. The pinks were in good condition when we packed them for shipping. The customer stated that they arrived in frozen condition, so the problem wasn't caused by thawing in transit. We had NO INTENTIONS WHATSOEVER of reselling them, but had planned to use them for our own hatchlings had they arrived back to us in usable condition. We withdrew for sale the remainder of what we had left, and after this unfortunate experience will not sell pinks again unless the customer wants to come to our facility to pick them up. This way they can inspect them for themselves before they buy and we will not be accused of selling substandard product again. We don't need this kind of headaches and aggravation to make a few extra dollars.

4. We are not upset because we had to refund the customer his money. We didn't offer to replace the pinks because we didn't have anything different from what we had already sent. We are upset because when we ASKED--we did not DEMAND, as we are being accused of doing--if he could return them the way he received them, and he agreed to do so. He had all the packaging and the ice packs--it isn't like we expected him to run around buying dry ice and finding suitable packaging. After agreeing to return them in good order he returned them in slipshod packaging in unusable condition and then gave the impression that he couldn't care less when we told him about it. That's why we are upset. As I stated before, we were interested in finding out what exactly--if anything--was wrong with the pinks, and if they were still usable we could have used them for our own animals.

5. We have not posted since our original post because we wanted to wait and address everything at once, in one post. This is our last post to this thread. We have explained ourselves and our side of it, there is nothing else for us to say, and we do not wish to engage in any further discussion in this thread.

Isis Madec
Isis Reptiles

 

[John E Dove]

Thank you for your explanation. Now I think I can understand what happened and why but given we have been dismissed I'll not go into it, nor bother to conduct any experiments to verify my suspicions.
I believe you are wise to be curtailing your shipping of rodents given your methods and temperament displayed here.
It is sad that you did not have the nobility to offer an apology to Mr. Grubb for this undeserved thread.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Thank you for your explanation. Now I think I can understand what happened and why but given we have been dismissed I'll not go into it, nor bother to conduct any experiments to verify my suspicions.
I believe you are wise to be curtailing your shipping of rodents given your methods and temperament displayed here.
It is sad that you did not have the nobility to offer an apology to Mr. Grubb for this undeserved thread.

In all fairness, John, it appears to be a misunderstanding on both sides and both should issue each other a public apology. However, imo, Isis should be big enough to go first..because they made the post and because it appears that it's a "he said, she said" situation that took place over the phone; however, given that they have said this is their last post and class is dismissed..I doubt that it will happen (I hope they do return).

I have based my opinon on the following:

4. We are not upset because we had to refund the customer his money. We didn't offer to replace the pinks because we didn't have anything different from what we had already sent. We are upset because when we ASKED--we did not DEMAND, as we are being accused of doing--if he could return them the way he received them, and he agreed to do so. He had all the packaging and the ice packs--it isn't like we expected him to run around buying dry ice and finding suitable packaging. After agreeing to return them in good order he returned them in slipshod packaging in unusable condition and then gave the impression that he couldn't care less when we told him about it. That's why we are upset. As I stated before, we were interested in finding out what exactly--if anything--was wrong with the pinks, and if they were still usable we could have used them for our own animals.

I don't know...that they did something so wrong. In all fairness, we know that asking a customer to return something in the same condition as sent, does not mean that the animals need to be in top condition, but that they should be shipped as they were shipped to you. This is the accepted process of returning shipments. I mean, if I had a new stereo (joke here) and decided to return it, I certainly would not return it in a simple box with none of the necessary items (styrofoam..packing paper, etc) that would help the stereo arrive to the manufacturer in the same condition as I received it. The manufacturer could then determine what the issue was and correct it..but they couldn't do that if the stereo was banged up because I didn't pack it right, and they would probably REFUSE to refund my money because I didn't return it as I received it (doesn't have to have the original styrofoam..etc, but the effort must be made to ensure than no further damage is done).

So my final opinion is they are both wrong and neither side can prove or disprove "impressions," so to lay this issue to rest they both should be big enough to apologize.

 

[Kingetula]

From their site:

"In order for any adjustments to be made, we must be notified within 4 hours of delivery if there is a problem or if you are not satisfied with your animals(s). If we are not notified within 4 hours of delivery, we are released of all liability. This applies to both live animals and frozen rodents. Shipping on any returns will be paid by customer. In the case of refunds, only the cost of the animal(s) will be refunded. Shipping costs are nonrefundable."

they need to add:

"Additionally we will assume you are a liar, make you ship the animal(s) back (even if they are mush) and then trash your reputation across the internet. Oh and dont screw up with the shipping either moron."

Tom

Better yet...

ISIS Reptiles made a mistake posting this about Dan. As much as we would like to delete this topic we are aware we can not. I let my emotions get the best of me and for that I apologize to Dan. I want to let everyone know this is not how ISIS Reptiles does business. This will not happen again.

ISIS Reptiles will be sending Dan his complete order of pinkies that I hand selected for free first thing Monday morning. I hope you accept our apology Dan and we would love to do business with you in the future.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Your solution is MUCH better. But it still sticks in MY claw that they said Mike "gave the impression that he couldn't care less."

And I would be hestitant to do business with him if he can't do something as simple as shipping somehting back in the same condition (meaning the same way you got it). Not that I would ask for rats to be sent back..ewww!

What if a snake was shipped out and supposed to be returned (reaching here..but humor me)..and I got it back all cold and banged up..would we be so forgiving? Just because the shipment was dead does not mean that the same care can't be taken..but that's just me.