Info on record / Debbie Prince

[myminskins]

If she is refunding your money, unless Debbie requested this, a biopsy is YOUR decision and YOU should pay for that.

This is a question for Debbie . Personally I want the IBD issues cleared up for the sake of the community .
I really think Debbie can answer this herself as it will reflect on her reputation .
I understand that you would not do it but I do not have an issue with you...nor will I ever .
There is the bigger pic to look at here and that is the reptile community as a whole and its general well being .
Personally I am not comfortable with her releasing another animal into the community without a negative brain biopsy . So you see Debbie needs to answer this .
But thanks for your input ....it is well noted .
Toni

 

[mvite]

Sellers:[/U]
Never spend the money before you know your customer is happy!!

I'm scared of how many people do this---there should be serious community repurcussions. (I've had a thread or two myself where they've spent the money...) Charge it on a card through Paypal or something---but get it back to the buyer.

Payment plans are a little different--but sellers should always be ready to back themselves up with money. You gotta pay to play.

The only person who knows if that snake went into the box like a limp noodle---or as a healthy specimen---is the seller. Send the snake back to the seller---don't spend more of the seller's money just because you are feeling righteous today. Wasn't this school money or something? Buy school with your money---not more snake tests.

Let the seller decide her own business damage control if she decides to have the tests done or not. I know it will be something I would take into consideration as a buyer if I saw some animals she had listed.

Your willingness to spend more of her money is well noted.

 

[wyldwurm]

The only person who knows if that snake went into the box like a limp noodle---or as a healthy specimen---is the seller. Send the snake back to the seller---don't spend more of the seller's money just because you are feeling righteous today. Wasn't this school money or something? Buy school with your money---not more snake tests.

Let the seller decide her own business damage control if she decides to have the tests done or not. I know it will be something I would take into consideration as a buyer if I saw some animals she had listed.

Your willingness to spend more of her money is well noted.

Exactly my point. Well said!

 

[ToshaMc]

If Debbie wants to take the snake back and have a necropsy done that is her choice -- Toni I do not think you need to take any further responsibility (or financial burden) other than getting your refund and the snake back to her if she'll take it. If she is concerned about her customers (current and future) then she'll take the snake back and post the lab results when she gets them - she's already expressed her opinion she thinks she won't be able to sell the replacement animal - a negative lab result would go a long way towards that -- it's her choice whether she wants to clear it up or have it follow her around.

 

[myminskins]

Thats why I asked her what HER CHOICE is . Did she want to have it done here by a vet that has the snake and is working with the expert before she proceeds or does she not .
It was an offer that seemingly flew right over a couple peoples heads ...
Offer still stands Debbie .

 

[ToshaMc]

Toni -- what I meant was that you shouldn't take on any further responsibilities regarding this snake -- if she wants to have it sent back to her fine, if she wants to have your vet do the necropsy then she should contact him and make the arrangements and he can bill her directly. However -- until she gives you a refund that snake is technically yours so whether to immediately proceed with anything will be something you need to work out between yourselves.

 

[myminskins]

I am attempting to work it out by asking her if she wants to have it done before she proceeds . The snake is in my name at the vet. IF she wishes to have it done she has to go through me .
She cannot just contact the vet and have it done at this point . She can however tell me if she wants it done and I will get the invoice for her and she can pay the vet . Then she wont have to worry about IBD any more in this animal . In her last post she indicated she didnt think she could sell an animal now due to the IBD question .
She clearly now has a way out of that as I am willing to work with her and the vet prior to getting a refund ....and in order to move closer to a resolution ....while at the same time ensuring IBD is not an issue should she follow through on her offer .
I dont mind helping clear it up if she wants to do that .

 

[lanceheads]

Toni.
I assume Dr. Jacobson would necropsy the snake and test for IBD.
Your vet cannot do it, as he's not set up to do it or qualified to do it. Correct?

Randal Berry

 

[myminskins]

Toni.
I assume Dr. Jacobson would necropsy the snake and test for IBD.
Your vet cannot do it, as he's not set up to do it or qualified to do it. Correct?

Randal Berry

Yes the snake would go to Dr Jacobson is my understanding as did the blood smear . One went to MO I think..will have to double check that . Yes he is definitely working with Jacobson so it gets done right .

 

[Dennis Hultman]

The fact that this bp is acting like it is dictates that it be tested for IBD assuming is no good here. testing can hopefully remove doubts about this horrible health problem. not only for Debbie's and Toni's collection but everyone that has bought a bp out of Debbie's collection.

Then you think she is lying. I seriously doubt IBD symptoms developed overnight on the precis date she shipped. It doesn’t take a genius after looking at that packaging to understand what happened. Agreed on the horrible heath problem. She hasn't had a problem with any other anima thatl she has sent out and has had a good reputation beforehand. A little benefit that she is telling the truth.

Why should Toni have to wait 6 months on an unborn hatchling?

Why ask me? Is that not what I stated in the very quote you are responding to. Let’s see.

I think she would rather not wait six months plus for you to sell a baby that hasn't been born yet.

The possibility of that hatchling having the genetic problems caramels carry is extremely high.

A baby isn’t what is on the table but if it were she didn’t produce the previous one. She was offering one of her future hatchlings of comparative value at a earlier point. So why is it extremely high? Makes no sense.

A refund is in order here.

Yeah, I think most stated that. Instead coming in this thread and repeating the same points made by those that see it one way or another, I thought it would try to be helpful to pick the conversation up were the parties agreed at and reach a settlement. Why keep repeating it? They have already agreed.

There seems to be alot of premature back patting, atta girl etc etc.

I haven’t patted her back. Matter of fact, I didn’t even state my opinion on the refund, packaging and all the other details until mentioning a little in this post. Instead I focused on the settlement which both were agreeing to. I would like to see the buyer be satisfied with the outcome. I also would like to see the seller learn from this bad transaction.

I have seen no talk about refunding any vet costs Toni has incurred.

Toni needs to be refunded for the vet costs also.

LOL, Maybe if you let them hammer out the details and set a timeframe they can get some resolution. Instead of repeating the same thing over and over.

I don’t think Deb went “above and beyond” but there is still a chance to correct this situation.

Originally Posted by 147boas
debbie why didnt you start to get the funds together back when toni first said there was a problem then yoou would not be in this situation you should have told toni to send you the animal back and you would send her the money

Originally Posted by ms_ramie22
There is a lesson to be learned here that no one brought up... when I was selling geckos, I NEVER spent the customer's refund money UNTIL I was absolutely positive that they were satisified with the purchase. And in this case, where the customer had problems from the very get go, the refund money should have been kept available. It is not fair to the customer to have to wait for a refund... the seller didn't wait for the purchase money. Just my opinion.....

Agreed and that is my personal opinion as well. Many don’t do that. Since we are way beyond that point now seems reasonable to work with what we have and let the seller reflect on the situation she has to deal with now.

 

[David Reid]

Debbie, while a replacement snake is common practice in our industry, if the buyer even hints of a problem upon opening the box, you should understand that a refund might be needed. If Toni paid in cash, there should be cash available for a refund. If there is not, that says alot about your lack of business sense, and common sense. It seems like you are trying to do everything except suck it up and do the right thing. You have definitly lost some potential business from your actions on this thread. You only have yourself to blame for it too. An IBD claim can do irreparable damage to your business, and if you would have been smart, you would have refunded the money and none of this would have gotten out. I think since it has, even though the IBD issue seems less and less likely, to have a thread with your name, and IBD in it, is almost a death sentence for a breeder.

Dave

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

debbie david makes a very very valid point. that money should have remained available until the buyer was 100% satisfied with the animals. you also should agree to the necropsy, if the animal does in fact perish due to its issues. (at the moment, i really dont believe this is IBD at all.... just poor choice in packaging, and heat pack)and because of this, my opinion is such that....if the animal is showing no additional signs of deterioration.... why euthanize it to prove the obvious cause.... pythons die very quickly from IBD... i have yet to be informed otherwise, of this information.

 

[lanceheads]

debbie david makes a very very valid point. that money should have remained available until the buyer was 100% satisfied with the animals. you also should agree to the necropsy, if the animal does in fact perish due to its issues. (at the moment, i really dont believe this is IBD at all.... just poor choice in packaging, and heat pack)and because of this, my opinion is such that....if the animal is showing no additional signs of deterioration.... why euthanize it to prove the obvious cause.... pythons die very quickly from IBD... i have yet to be informed otherwise, of this information.

That's assinine, and an ignorant statement from you. (not at all surprising).
While pythons don't live as long as boa's diagnosed with IBD, many live month's after a diagnosis of IBD is confirmed by blood samples.

I don't believe for one second that the Ball python has IBD. (we agree) I think it's heat related, after seeing how it was packaged/shipped.

Randal Berry

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

That's assinine, and an ignorant statement from you. (not at all surprising).
While pythons don't live as long as boa's diagnosed with IBD, many live month's after a diagnosis of IBD is confirmed by blood samples.

I don't believe for one second that the Ball python has IBD. (we agree) I think it's heat related, after seeing how it was packaged/shipped.

Randal Berry

hey randall, im PRETTY sure that i put in my post, that while they die quickly, "I have not been informed otherwise of this fact." I leave room for people to correct, or inform when i post that kind of stuff, pretty much always, at least i try.

You never do add anything helpful to your posts..... how about just linking me to a few articles that mention the information. Real classy randall.

I found just a portion of the information here:

http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
http://www.anapsid.org/deanne.html

And various other friends that have given me the information that i learn from have helped me come to this conclusion. Is any of this information 100% on the dot what is EXACTLY known about this disease? No. The info is ALL over, its not hard to miss....

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171413.htm

Theres another one randall....... So one could see why my information about pythons dying very quickly would be assumed correctly when this is posted in a well known publication.

 

[Ed Clark]

i really dont believe this is IBD at all....

How can you post something like this with no clinical testing what so ever?

Its obvious what happened here.

John Manser sent out a snake that should be at the bottom of a freezer.

Debbie Prince noticed all the bad signs this bp was displaying then she decieded to sell it to not lose any money on the snake.

She past her problems on to an unsuspecting Toni and possibly a horrible illness. anyone that would think about buying anything from a scumbag seller like Debbie is going to have problems with whatever they buy from her.

 

[Masonexotics]

How can you post something like that with no proof what so ever?

How is it "obvious" thats what's happened?

the only "obvious" thing to me in all of this is the FACT (as seen in the emails,, ie not just speculation) that the seller gave the buyer BS advice in the first instance. If a Ball python breeder is willing to try and pass off stargazing, writhing, limpness etc as "travelling stress" they shoulnd't be breeding ball pythons IMO.


Please read the whole post here Ed, i'm agreeing with you in principal (ie seller in the wrong) but you're no more able to say this snake has IBD (or similar) or that the seller knew than Moo up there was in his/her posts.



Reading the thread I personally thin (while this could be IBD or similar) it's muhc more likely to simply be heat damage. I imaginve a double-insulated, foil lined box with a heat pack will get pretty warm over the course of the heatpack life.




Putting AAAAALLLL of this to one side the simple fact remains that the seller WAS informed of a problem, gave a BS excuses designed to put the customers mind at ease THEN tries to turn it back round on the buyer with the good old "you waited too long" routine. Of course they waited after being told by this breeder they trust (trust enough to send 2-4k to!) that ball pythons can have these symptom due to "shipping stress"!!

I think you've jumped to faaar too many conclusions Ed, your reasoning is sound (ie seller = wrong) but your conclusions are crazy, and just as random and the person you tried to pull up on thge same issue.


It's probably not IBD (as you well know Ed) BUT the seller is responsible in this instance no matter which way she tried to spin it.


so far she's tried to blame the buyers husbandry (problem reported immediately = not husbandry), the buyers lack of knowledge and the buyers possible use of incorrect meds/substances.

 

[timebider]

Wow. Really?? Just...wow.

I've been following this thread with interest. It appears to me, based entirely on the facts provided, that the snake was damaged during shipping. Someone early in this thread described a BP that was known to be heat damaged due to an equipment malfunction; that snake behaved just like Toni's and then, several months later, apparently recovered.

Both buyer and seller can potentially be faulted for their handling of the situation, but I think Debbie is being treated a little more harshly than is strictly warranted. (Particularly by Ed, whose inflammatory accusations are both utterly baseless and uncalled-for. Ed. Seriously. ) Toni, you say you and your daughter are both torn up emotionally about this, yet you seem very eager to have the snake euthanized. Why? You've essentially got what you wanted: Debbie has promised a refund as soon as she can provide one - which, you must acknowledge, you have made more difficult for her through this thread. I think we can all agree it's best to hang onto the customer's money until we know they are satisfied, but it is what it is.

Here's my question: does anyone actually care about the snake anymore? Is it actually suffering? If not, and if it were mine, I would be hoping that, and caring for the snake as if, it would recover in time from its apparent heat damage (unless of course the vet thought the snake likely could have IBD, which is not the case here). If I couldn't QT it at home, or afford to keep it quarantined at the vet, I'd get a snakeless friend to take it for a while. If that weren't an option, and Debbie didn't want it back, I'd try to find a herper who could give this snake a chance. Euthanasia would be my last choice if it wasn't suffering. Bickering about refunds and tests aside, who's going to take actual responsibility for the long-term CARE of this animal?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Here's my question: does anyone actually care about the snake anymore? Is it actually suffering? If not, and if it were mine, I would be hoping that, and caring for the snake as if, it would recover in time from its apparent heat damage (unless of course the vet thought the snake likely could have IBD, which is not the case here). If I couldn't QT it at home, or afford to keep it quarantined at the vet, I'd get a snakeless friend to take it for a while. If that weren't an option, and Debbie didn't want it back, I'd try to find a herper who could give this snake a chance. Euthanasia would be my last choice if it wasn't suffering. Bickering about refunds and tests aside, who's going to take actual responsibility for the long-term CARE of this animal?

Great Post.

 

[Ed Clark]

How is it "obvious" thats what's happened?

Reading the thread I personally thin (while this could be IBD or similar) it's muhc more likely to simply be heat damage. I imaginve a double-insulated, foil lined box with a heat pack will get pretty warm over the course of the heatpack life.

Temps with heat packs will not get so hot shipping in february to cause heat damage to that caramel albino. the pics posted by Toni is some of the genetic problems displayed by caramel albinos and also spiders.

that ball pythons can have these symptom due to "shipping stress"!!

nop, the pics showed genetic problems that caramels carry.

I think you've jumped to faaar too many conclusions Ed, your reasoning is sound (ie seller = wrong) but your conclusions are crazy, and just as random and the person you tried to pull up on thge same issue.

may sound crazy to you, I have seen far too many caramel albinos with this exact behavior.

Wow. Really?? Just...wow.

I've been following this thread with interest. It appears to me, based entirely on the facts provided, that the snake was damaged during shipping. Someone early in this thread described a BP that was known to be heat damaged due to an equipment malfunction; that snake behaved just like Toni's and then, several months later, apparently recovered.

Your mistaken, this is not heat related its genetic.

Both buyer and seller can potentially be faulted for their handling of the situation, but I think Debbie is being treated a little more harshly than is strictly warranted. (Particularly by Ed, whose inflammatory accusations are both utterly baseless and uncalled-for. Ed. Seriously. ) Toni, you say you and your daughter are both torn up emotionally about this, yet you seem very eager to have the snake euthanized. Why? You've essentially got what you wanted.

BOO Hoo I will give Debbie a lolli pop if you think anyone including myself has been too harsh on her.

My accusations are not inflammatory and utterly baseless as you say. I have put caramels like this in the freezer because they are genetically defective and are NOT saleable.

Debbie say's she lost money on the sale of these snakes.....if she is so concerened about money, money, money she should start thinking about the fun of breeding and not think about money all the time.

Like it or not, Debbie selling this bp so she would not lose money is what has people saying harsh things about her....nothing else!