Info on record / Debbie Prince

[ToshaMc]

Caramels are known to kink not to spin - spiders spin caramel kink. Sure it's possible for any animal to have the spins but for it not to be noted in any animal prior to sale is irresponsible of the seller. But to say it's a well known documented fact is untrue.

IBD kills pythons dead quickly - don't believe me contact Dr. Jacobsen yourself - they cannot live for months with IBD. That there is no further progression after nearly a month and a half it is unlikely the snake has IBD. However you can't blame someone that still has two animals that were shipped in the same box to be concerned enough to want a definite answer - not to mention others that might have received animals around the same time.

The long term care of this animal has already been discussed outside of this particular thread. The only one that seems to not care about the condition of the snake is Debbie - not from the moment she was told it was limp and flipping over and could possibly have something that would kill off her entire collection and those of her customers and not today.

 

[Ed Clark]

Caramels are known to kink not to spin - spiders spin caramel kink. Sure it's possible for any animal to have the spins but for it not to be noted in any animal prior to sale is irresponsible of the seller. But to say it's a well known documented fact is untrue.

Tosha your are wrong about this.

The spinal kinking has been there since day 1 and can not be breed away from, I know I had some of the first caramels Kevin released and kinking was a shock when I first seen it.

A caramel will twist, cork screw, fall over and crawl on its back just like the very worst spider will. thats well known fact.


It is my opinion that caramel albinos should not be bred or sold because of the genetic defects these bp's carry.

 

[hhmoore]

i really dont believe this is IBD at all....

How can you post something like this with no clinical testing what so ever?

It's really pretty simple. She stated her opinion. FWIW, I suspect that it is an opinion shared by a fairly large portion of the readers of this thread (if you ask me how I can post something like THAT, I can post a few PMs from members that state they don't believe the snake has IBD)
I, personally, don't believe it is IBD - if IBD was the cause, it would be quite likely that other snakes in Debbie's collection would be at least symptomatic by now. Further, this snake was shipped with two others and all 3 of them were at Toni's home for 8 days prior to the snake being brought to the vet, with the caramel being clearly symptomatic. The other two snakes have been there for, what?, 7 weeks now? And nothing is having any problems. I can't speak to Toni's quarantine practices, but there have been cases outlined here in which seemingly exemplary quarantine was followed & the spread/progression was devastating within this period.

Not liking people very much, part of me would enjoy Ed's scenario - in which the snake was displaying these symptoms while in Debbie's possession, and she shipped it off to an unsuspecting buyer. It would feed my grumblings for days, if not weeks. However, short of Debbie admitting to that, or John M stating that the snake was like that when he sold it to her, I'm not quite comfortable making that stretch. (If I missed where either of those things happened, I'd appreciate somebody pointing me to the pertinent posts.)

Temperature related? It's possible. Let's consider the details. A 12x9x6 box with a 40 hr heat pack. It was difficult to tell if the insulation used was 1/2 or 3/4 inch, so we'll skip that part for the time being. The inside of the foam insulation was lined with Reflectix - which reflects radiated heat. It can do a great job of keeping heat in, sometimes too good...but that is where ambient temps come into play. Per Superior Enterprise, "40 HOURS HEAT PACK ACTIVATE IN APPROX. 40-50 MINUTES"..."THE SURFACE TEMPERATURE IS APPROX. 110 DEGREES AT ITS PEAK. IT RELEASES STEADY TEMPERATURE AND PEAK OUT BETWEEN 17 TO 19 HOURS".
Here's the tracking info

Feb 19, 2009 10:27 AM Delivered PINE BLUFF, AR
Feb 19, 2009 8:56 AM At local FedEx facility PINE BLUFF, AR
Feb 19, 2009 3:26 AM Departed FedEx location MEMPHIS, TN
Feb 19, 2009 1:23 AM Arrived at FedEx location MEMPHIS, TN
Feb 18, 2009 5:37 PM Left FedEx origin facility ROCKLIN, CA
Feb 18, 2009 3:19 PM Picked up AUBURN, CA Tendered at FedEx Kinko's location

I'm almost out of time, so I can't chase down temperatures at both ends, but that will be a big piece of this puzzle. If it was mild (or, worse, warm) in Debbie's part of CA on the afternoon she sent the package, it was definitely overinsulated. It was sitting for a couple hours at room temp while the heat pack was at its peak....probably not the best planning on either person's part. Of course, we haven't heard any comment about whether the heat pack was working (in some cases, with well sealed boxes, the heat packs stop due to decreased oxygen availability), or whether the contents of the box were unusually warm - its pretty hard to miss 100+ degrees when you reach into a box, and the snakes would definitely feel WARM to the touch.

I'd been trying to stay out of this one for a few reasons...but now that I am here....Toni, what the were you doing spending your daughter's scholarship money on BPs???????

 

[watsoncj]

Toni, what the were you doing spending your daughter's scholarship money on BPs???????

At least it wasn't lottery tickets.

Chuck Watson

 

[Craigh]

Toni, had you waited to bring this to the BOI (and the Bush League, and wherever else you've posted this), you would have found that I would be amicable to selling one of my current snakes to get your refund. You offered this as a solution, and as I was reading the email from you - literally - I got the email from Harold alerting me to this thread. It would have been much easier to sell the replacement animal and get you your funds without this drama. Now, people have questions about IBD (which I'm quite sure I don't have) in both of our collections, people have said they'll never do business with me, hope my business crashes (on the Bush League, thanks Tosha) - how easy do you think it will be to sell said replacement animal now?

But yes, here for all the world to see, I am offering to - instead of giving you a replacement animal, sell said replacement animal and give you the funds instead. This is the SECOND time I have AGREED to one of YOUR solutions to this issue. However, I should ask - do I need to wait six months for QT so people can be assured that my collection is IBD free before selling said replacement, or is it OK if I do it now? Although as I mentioned above, it may take some time to sell another snake because you opted to bring all this drama to multiple forums before I had a chance to respond to your email suggesting this alternative solution, which I deem agreable.

Said funds will be sent to Toni after the replacement snake has been sold, the customer receives the snake, snake is alive and healthy (not needing to be returned and refunded), so no one else is unhappy. Does that work?

Just was wondering have you put up any snakes to sell for the refund. I was a little bored and looked around and didn't see any on this site or others if there is can you direct them to me please. . Also are you going to use this thread as an excuse why you can sell any. To get out of paying her back or take a long time to refund the money. That is just how I took your post

 

[chondrogal]

Here's my question: does anyone actually care about the snake anymore? Is it actually suffering? If not, and if it were mine, I would be hoping that, and caring for the snake as if, it would recover in time from its apparent heat damage (unless of course the vet thought the snake likely could have IBD, which is not the case here). If I couldn't QT it at home, or afford to keep it quarantined at the vet, I'd get a snakeless friend to take it for a while. If that weren't an option, and Debbie didn't want it back, I'd try to find a herper who could give this snake a chance. Euthanasia would be my last choice if it wasn't suffering. Bickering about refunds and tests aside, who's going to take actual responsibility for the long-term CARE of this animal?

I've also followed this thread with interest... why? because although I don't know Debbie well, I believe in my heart that this situation just got away from her and I know she cares for all her animals a lot and would never wish for something to happen to them. I'm thinking that in her desire to make good and sure that the baby she sent out would be safe she probably overinsulated the package and now is trying to catch up with her error.

I also know that while Debbie has been working for a long time with nice geckos with a great reputation, she's new to snakes having purchased her first snake not even a year ago.... her first snake ever!!! I know that she researched that snake purchase and loved that baby and like many of us couldn't resist the urge to add more to her collection.

I also do not believe that this snake should be euthanized and do believe that it should at least be given a chance to recoop as much as it will if it is heat related. I've had two snakes over the last few years that had neurological damage..... one was an injury (striking face first into floor and damaging vertabrae) which took about a year to overcome before she appeared normal again, the second was overdose (by vet) of panacur which left her paralytic for almost a week before snapping around. I know that finances are tight raising a family and will offer Debbie to cover cost of vet care up till now and shipping to have this snake shipped to me. I'd love to give her a long term chance to recover and will set her up at my business location where there is no exposure to any other snakes/reptiles so no danger to other snakes just in case Mansur did send an ill snake which I find pretty unlikely.

If she's doing fine in a few months down the road Debbie can pay back vet/shipping cost and get this girl back to her collection again if she'd like. Have to admit...... that is one pretty ball python!! If she wants to just walk away from it then at least she won't go further in the hole by having to pay vet expenses on top of the refund.

I hope that Tori would agree to allow the snake back to third party while waiting for refund hoping to give it a good chance at rehab in the case of neurological damage to possible overheating. It would be a shame to put the snake down to discover it wasn't IBD when it isn't necessary.

I do believe that Debbie will refund the purchase as soon as she has the funds, her initial actions in this case were those of a woman under major stress of delivery of new human baby and all that comes with that. Were mistakes made..... of course. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase/work with either person here. I believe Tori didn't get what she purchased and had right to be upset and that Debbie was mega-hormonal. Not an excuse, but an explanation. I don't believe in a heartbeat that Debbie would have sold these snakes in the first place if she didn't need the money immediately for life's expenses. She has stated she will refund purchase price from sale of one of her other snakes asap.

I feel bad for the snake and both the buyer and seller to have this happen.

 

[hhmoore]

Ed,
Thank you for the info about the caramel albino defects (both in PM and this thread). Given that tendency toward neurologic problems, would you think that it would be likely for a caramel to be more susceptible to show problems from overheating than other morphs? Perhaps at slightly lower temperatures, or with shorter exposure times?

I'm not particularly trying to pin this on overheating, just looking for viable explanations. Of course, if the snake was like that when it went into the box, that search is nothing more than an exercise.

 

[Ed Clark]

Ed,
Thank you for the info about the caramel albino defects (both in PM and this thread). Given that tendency toward neurologic problems, would you think that it would be likely for a caramel to be more susceptible to show problems from overheating than other morphs? Perhaps at slightly lower temperatures, or with shorter exposure times?

I'm not particularly trying to pin this on overheating, just looking for viable explanations. Of course, if the snake was like that when it went into the box, that search is nothing more than an exercise.

I'm not sure about what temps the different morphs can take or not. if in fact it is different or not?

My opinion would be that a small box with a 40 hour heat pack, packed with all the edges taped tight can not overheat a bp in the winter.

Why I say this is I ship to the cold northern states in Jan and Feb with 3-40 hour heat packs in a 12x9x6 insulated box, when opened was temp gunned at 76*f which I believe is ideal winter shipping conditions(this was 1 box that was tested). I have shipped to Arizona, Socal, Texas, New Mexico in the dead of winter with heat packs with no problems at all.

The risk of overheating is miniscule.

Keep in mind when you open a heat pack and put it in the box...it takes over an hour sometimes to heat up depending on the available air for it to fire up with.

 

[Ed Clark]

I do believe that Debbie will refund the purchase as soon as she has the funds, her initial actions in this case were those of a woman under major stress of delivery of new human baby and all that comes with that. Were mistakes made..... of course. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase/work with either person here. I believe Tori didn't get what she purchased and had right to be upset and that Debbie was mega-hormonal. Not an excuse, but an explanation. I don't believe in a heartbeat that Debbie would have sold these snakes in the first place if she didn't need the money immediately for life's expenses.

Cathy, you paint a very pretty picture, this is not a pretty situation for Toni.

Toni recieved a bp she was not happy with and should have been refunded by now...not sometime in the future when its more convienient for Debbie Prince.

 

[myminskins]

Wow. Really?? Just...wow.

I've been following this thread with interest. It appears to me, based entirely on the facts provided, that the snake was damaged during shipping. Someone early in this thread described a BP that was known to be heat damaged due to an equipment malfunction; that snake behaved just like Toni's and then, several months later, apparently recovered.

Both buyer and seller can potentially be faulted for their handling of the situation, but I think Debbie is being treated a little more harshly than is strictly warranted. (Particularly by Ed, whose inflammatory accusations are both utterly baseless and uncalled-for. Ed. Seriously. ) Toni, you say you and your daughter are both torn up emotionally about this, yet you seem very eager to have the snake euthanized. Why? You've essentially got what you wanted: Debbie has promised a refund as soon as she can provide one - which, you must acknowledge, you have made more difficult for her through this thread. I think we can all agree it's best to hang onto the customer's money until we know they are satisfied, but it is what it is.

Here's my question: does anyone actually care about the snake anymore? Is it actually suffering? If not, and if it were mine, I would be hoping that, and caring for the snake as if, it would recover in time from its apparent heat damage (unless of course the vet thought the snake likely could have IBD, which is not the case here). If I couldn't QT it at home, or afford to keep it quarantined at the vet, I'd get a snakeless friend to take it for a while. If that weren't an option, and Debbie didn't want it back, I'd try to find a herper who could give this snake a chance. Euthanasia would be my last choice if it wasn't suffering. Bickering about refunds and tests aside, who's going to take actual responsibility for the long-term CARE of this animal?

The animal IS suffering .THAT is why we have been emotionally distraught since day 1 . Its been over 6 wks does thta sound like we are in a hurry to euthanize it ?The right thing to do would have been to euthanize it 6 wks ago .And no I have not yet recieved a refund or even acknowledgement that she has my mailing address even though I asked...and no I do not acknowledge any of this is my fault .
I am not bickering about funds . I offered her the opportunity on here in front of everyone to have the testing done. She obviously doesnt take me up on the offer and so it stands..I do not intend to let the animal continue to suffer . The one post on here is the only one I have seen or heard from anyone saying it could still improve and have quality of life . Numerous others have told me if it hasnt by now it wont from their own experiences.
It is still at the vet in qt suffering ...and being taken care of .
So your accusations about us not caring for the snake are reaching a little too far .

 

[myminskins]

I've also followed this thread with interest... why? because although I don't know Debbie well, I believe in my heart that this situation just got away from her and I know she cares for all her animals a lot and would never wish for something to happen to them. I'm thinking that in her desire to make good and sure that the baby she sent out would be safe she probably overinsulated the package and now is trying to catch up with her error.

I also know that while Debbie has been working for a long time with nice geckos with a great reputation, she's new to snakes having purchased her first snake not even a year ago.... her first snake ever!!! I know that she researched that snake purchase and loved that baby and like many of us couldn't resist the urge to add more to her collection.

I also do not believe that this snake should be euthanized and do believe that it should at least be given a chance to recoop as much as it will if it is heat related. I've had two snakes over the last few years that had neurological damage..... one was an injury (striking face first into floor and damaging vertabrae) which took about a year to overcome before she appeared normal again, the second was overdose (by vet) of panacur which left her paralytic for almost a week before snapping around. I know that finances are tight raising a family and will offer Debbie to cover cost of vet care up till now and shipping to have this snake shipped to me. I'd love to give her a long term chance to recover and will set her up at my business location where there is no exposure to any other snakes/reptiles so no danger to other snakes just in case Mansur did send an ill snake which I find pretty unlikely.

If she's doing fine in a few months down the road Debbie can pay back vet/shipping cost and get this girl back to her collection again if she'd like. Have to admit...... that is one pretty ball python!! If she wants to just walk away from it then at least she won't go further in the hole by having to pay vet expenses on top of the refund.

I hope that Tori would agree to allow the snake back to third party while waiting for refund hoping to give it a good chance at rehab in the case of neurological damage to possible overheating. It would be a shame to put the snake down to discover it wasn't IBD when it isn't necessary.

I do believe that Debbie will refund the purchase as soon as she has the funds, her initial actions in this case were those of a woman under major stress of delivery of new human baby and all that comes with that. Were mistakes made..... of course. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase/work with either person here. I believe Tori didn't get what she purchased and had right to be upset and that Debbie was mega-hormonal. Not an excuse, but an explanation. I don't believe in a heartbeat that Debbie would have sold these snakes in the first place if she didn't need the money immediately for life's expenses. She has stated she will refund purchase price from sale of one of her other snakes asap.

I feel bad for the snake and both the buyer and seller to have this happen.

FYI debbie said she was using the money to buy cats ....which is her buisness but please .

 

[hhmoore]

Ed - I understand your point about the heat packs...but this was from California to Arkansas (I spent a couple winters in AR, so I am not wholly unfamiliar with the temperature ranges), and the box was lined with Reflectix. The (weather) conditions the day of shipping definitely could have been a factor, esp if the package was picked up vs dropped off. If it was a warm day (I don't know where in Cali Auburn is), the inside temps could have gotten hot enough to cause problems with a single heat pack. Again, I'm not stating this is what happened, and I don't feel there has been enough posted to make that call......but I don't think it is can just be assumed that the snake went into the box like that either.

 

[hhmoore]

FYI debbie said she was using the money to buy cats ....which is her buisness but please .

And you used your daughter's scholarship money to buy snakes...which is your business. What's your point?

 

[myminskins]

At least it wasn't lottery tickets.

Chuck Watson

Thanks for asking this question . My daughter is an adult . She is so intellegent and her academics so high that she gets paid to go to school by the school itself. She earned it . Once her tuition , books,room and board are pd they give her a chunk each semester to do with what she wants . It belongs to her . If she wants to spend it on a snake pymt as this is her venture as well..then that is her buisness . She is perfectly capable of making her own decisions and it is really none of your buisness .So in actuality Debbie has done this to my daughter as well.. not that it seemed to matter obviously .

 

[myminskins]

And you used your daughter's scholarship money to buy snakes...which is your business. What's your point?

Cathy said debbie sold the snakes because she need the money for her tough life experiences...just replying to Cathy that debbie told me different . Guess that was the point .

And no my daughter spent her own money . She is an adult .

 

[chondrogal]

Tori, fwiw, I totally believe that you did the right thing in taking it to the vet when you did. The "delay" in hospitalization was quite reasonable imho based upon the info that Debbie initially gave you. I don't think that the few day delay would make any difference.

I do not believe this snake is suffering though either, she's been in good hands all along. She's apparently eaten at least twice since she's been shipped and the fact that she's apparently not gotten any worse, please give her the chance to recover and at least be a nice pet for someone down the road if she's indeed not sick. People with CP, quadraplegics etc can live a quality life with disability, if the snake winds up having a permanent disability then her life can be adjusted accordingly.

I've worked alongside some great vets for the last 30+ years and have seen some incredible recoveries for many animals that have gone on to lead full healthy lives.

I do hope that Debbie contacts you privately asap to work out the financial aspect and let you know what you can expect regarding refund. I believe you both wear your hearts on your sleeve and believe that these animals are more than "just snakes".

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120823&highlight=debbie+prince I'm pretty sure Debbie is still the basic good person at heart and unless she totally blows Tori off she should be given the chance to make good.

I do have a rosier vision of people than many, but also believe that my gut instinct is pretty right on 99% of the time. I believe you are both very caring people that are both young mothers and when the children are involved (your daughter was distraught and you want what's right by her, and Debbie's new baby was just born and she was focused on newborn issues and sidetracked) emotions can get in the way. Tori, I'm on your side, you've presented your case well and believe you are due the refund, I do believe that Debbie has stated she will refund. I'm thinking her head is spinning trying to figure out how to come up with the money as I'm sure she wants this cleared up as quickly as you do.

added: Cats? told you I don't know her real well! Personally, it's not my style to sell one animal so that I could buy another no matter what kind it was so don't even know how to respond to that.

 

[hhmoore]

that was my daughters scholarship money....it wasnt even mine ...

And no my daughter spent her own money . She is an adult .

OK, now I'm confused. There seems to be some conflict between the above statements. If you didn't spend her scholarship money, the first quote doesn't make much sense. If your daughter that spent her own money, that would mean that it was her transaction. Why are you posting, and not her?

 

[hhmoore]

(Just for the record - I'm not disputing either side of the story, or that the buyer is due a refund....unless it comes out that the animal had these symptoms prior to shipping and the buyer was aware of them - which would, of course, change everything)

 

[myminskins]

Tori, fwiw, I totally believe that you did the right thing in taking it to the vet when you did. The "delay" in hospitalization was quite reasonable imho based upon the info that Debbie initially gave you. I don't think that the few day delay would make any difference.

I do not believe this snake is suffering though either, she's been in good hands all along. She's apparently eaten at least twice since she's been shipped and the fact that she's apparently not gotten any worse, please give her the chance to recover and at least be a nice pet for someone down the road if she's indeed not sick. People with CP, quadraplegics etc can live a quality life with disability, if the snake winds up having a permanent disability then her life can be adjusted accordingly.

I've worked alongside some great vets for the last 30+ years and have seen some incredible recoveries for many animals that have gone on to lead full healthy lives.

I do hope that Debbie contacts you privately asap to work out the financial aspect and let you know what you can expect regarding refund. I believe you both wear your hearts on your sleeve and believe that these animals are more than "just snakes".

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120823&highlight=debbie+prince I'm pretty sure Debbie is still the basic good person at heart and unless she totally blows Tori off she should be given the chance to make good.

I do have a rosier vision of people than many, but also believe that my gut instinct is pretty right on 99% of the time. I believe you are both very caring people that are both young mothers and when the children are involved (your daughter was distraught and you want what's right by her, and Debbie's new baby was just born and she was focused on newborn issues and sidetracked) emotions can get in the way. Tori, I'm on your side, you've presented your case well and believe you are due the refund, I do believe that Debbie has stated she will refund. I'm thinking her head is spinning trying to figure out how to come up with the money as I'm sure she wants this cleared up as quickly as you do.

added: Cats? told you I don't know her real well! Personally, it's not my style to sell one animal so that I could buy another no matter what kind it was so don't even know how to respond to that.

Cathy,
You apparently have a huge heart . A major reason I have not requested intervention in this is because we have been dealing with our emotions...my daughter and I and trying to make the best decisions possible for the sake of the animal .
I had hoped debbie would contact me during the 5-6 wks but she didnt....so we have dealt with the situation ourselves . The animal will writhe on its back tying itself in knots like a worm on hot pavement . It doesnt appear to be quality of life to me .
I believe the animal is suffering .
I am fully aware that disabled people can have quality of life and am an advocate and parent .

 

[myminskins]

OK, now I'm confused. There seems to be some conflict between the above statements. If you didn't spend her scholarship money, the first quote doesn't make much sense. If your daughter that spent her own money, that would mean that it was her transaction. Why are you posting, and not her?

She didnt make all the pymts and in fact has been reimbursed for the one pymt she did make .
May I suggest that you read the entire thread so you would know most all the answers and I wouldnt have to repeat info .
I dont mind clarifying but I have things to do .