Current Status of the Reptile Industry

[jntreptiles]

I am just curious to what others feelings are about the current status of the reptile industry. I have been in business since 1987 and have been involved in many aspects of this industry over the years.

I have seen some ups and downs over the years, but none to the degree that it seems to be currently. I do understand that the economy is in a definite crunch and that people are being conservative on spending. But at he same time, does anyone feel that there are to many shows up and running.

I am in the north-east, and there is virtually a show every 3-4 weeks within a 2 hour drive of me. There is no anticipation factor anymore, and the impulse buyer has been lost.

If anyone has noticed the prices on many animals, they have dropped harshly and rapidly, to the point of being all but worthless. As many of you who sell on here already know, trying to get the value of your animal is getting harder and harder. I have seen many a animal, sell for way less then what they are really worth. Great for the buyer/horrible for the seller.

I guess I am just venting, frustrated at what use to be a great and rewarding industry. So just looking for what others are thinking. Is it affecting your business? Have you noticed a decline?

 

[Kingetula]

I think you are right. I noticed it here in Florida with "breeders and dealers" I visit from time to time, even the few pet shops I visit have been hurting. I've seen a few people call it quits over the past year and start different carriers in the industry, they sold snakes and now they supplying pet stores with mice, just trying to make a buck.

 

[WingedWolf]

Well, it shouldn't be a surprise that the poor economy is affecting the reptile industry just as much as it's affecting other businesses. I don't think the effect is necessarily worse than it is for other 'luxury' industries. People are tightening their belts, and they just don't have the money to buy the snakes, no matter how much they want them. High unemployment rates are probably a factor there as well, and reduced hours, etc.

I think the important thing is not to let this year--or even next year's prices affect prices in the long term, if at all possible. There are a lot of people bailing just to make a living--I had to run a sale as well to pay an expense that came up, because I couldn't cover it with income from the other part of my business--it's all just limping along.

All that bailing out adds up to a lot of animals on the market that might not normally be there--and that adds to the overstock, forcing prices lower. Perhaps once people are no longer being forced to bail, prices will actually rebound a bit. (One can hope). I don't see this as a complete disaster, just really rough times. But I do think competition for customers is going to be fierce for a little while.

 

[LauraB]

Is it affecting your business? Have you noticed a decline?

Absolutely. Not only in my hobby breeding/sales, but also in my career as well.

 

[DAND]

As well as the critters I breed I also sell feeders insects and I have seen a decrease in sales there too. You'd figure feeders would be a consistent need but when I'm ordering 75,000 crickets for a show that 6 months ago I was ordering 100,000+, yeah I'd have to say there has been a decrease in sales. It's not just the shows since I am seeing this with my out of shows sales as well.

When is Obama going to sign that reptile stimulus bill?

 

[jntreptiles]

I am glad to see so many people responding to this thread. Like I had stated before about the number of shows, I am in Pa, and this year if I am correct there are like 35-40 shows within a 1-3 hour drive of me this year. That is all but 1 show every other week or so.

Since these shows are so close to each other, you generally see the same vendors at each show, with the exception of a small % that are local to that shows location. So therefore, the impulse buy is lost, and a chance is taken on getting that animal at the next show which is only weeks later.

Rodent sales are hurting as well, alot are feeding every other week due to finances, and I agree with Donna, competition and over stock of unsold animals are gonna force the market to continue to drop rapidly and harshly on certain animals that are already being offered at below what they should be valued at. Will prices rebound when things get better?, They may, but will they rebound enough to put those animals back into perspective where they should be?, I doubt it.

I hope everyone holds out thru all this, and continues to push forward with their current projects and future ventures.

 

[Mad4You2]

Independence Day....

We opened Dragon Bytes, Inc. a reptile and exotics store the afternoon of July 4th. Business is slowly picking up and I think that's because there's not much in the way of reptiles and supplies available in Tyler Texas and the surrounding area. We've got financing to last at least another year so I'm hoping to see the economy improve and allow people discretionary funds to spend on the hobby.

We're working with some of the members of the local herp club to try and get meetings going again....we have the space so it wouldn't cost anything to meet at the store. I've run ads in the Thrifty Nickel and that has increased traffic and I also got a yellow pages ad that will come out in the October book. We've got good prices on our feeders and we're getting regular customers coming back. Everyone says our animals look happy and everyone really wants something but they aren't buying on a first trip....they keep coming back and looking and finally some buy.

I have noticed that the prices seem lower on almost all animals listed for sale across the sties I routinely visit. I hope prices rebound when the economy picks up. BTW - the show closest to us i about 1.5 hours from our location in Arlington Texas they are d doing fewer shows than they have in the past.

 

[mikeyt]

I have been to a few shows here lately in the Pa and Md areas and it seems like the number of people attending the shows is still up fairly good, however as I move from table to table I notice that the competition is very stiff, most every table has the same animals, seeming to be balls, boas , and leopard geckos. All are competing with the same species, it comes down to what catches your eye and who is willing to sacrifice the most on price. I have seen some already exceptionaly low priced animals sell for even less at the end of bartering. It is truly amazing.

I do not seem to see as many people carrying around new purchases as I use to, rather most seem to be regular attendees, just hanging out for the day, while others seem to pickng up feeders and supplies.

 

[DISCERN]

Everyone has made some good points!

I personally feel that while the economy does and is playing a huge part in this, I think that a lot of what we are seeing is just simply too much of a good thing, which is the lovely reptiles we are hatching out at alarming rates. That, and too many shows like another mentioned.

Whenever anyone buys a pair of snakes to breed from you, the seller, that is one more person that will become a competitor for you in the future, willingly or unwillingly. Keep that in mind as customers buy more and more pairs of snakes from people all over. Then, tons of snakes are hatched. Everyone and thier uncle has ads out on the internet, and buys tables at reptile shows. Everyone has the same thing, as mikeyt pointed out. I see the same snakes day in, day out, all over on the classifieds. Nothing seems to be rare anymore.

Then, you have what we have now: Supply exceeding demand.

Then, when supply exceeds demand, prices go down. It's just how it is. Then, you hear frustration over this happening from breeders. Tons of talking smack about one another, over money. Is that constructive? Nope, and only serves to divide.
Again, this is all about supply exceeding demand. IMO, it is all over the place in our hobby.

Maybe if people did not set out to breed everything they buy, then our supply now would not be so exhausted? Breeding is so rewarding, and always a good thing to do, but at the same time, requires much responsibility, and then the possibility of scenarios such as what the herp community is going thru now happening. It is also rewarding to not breed everything you buy, and just enjoy these fine animals as pets. Something to think about.

Also, in this time, people may just have to live with getting what they can get for their reptiles. A snake is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it, and this all varies from person to person.

Take care!

 

[Bill & Amy]

I don't know what you guys are seeing, but everyone I know has been selling just fine. Some say the have had the best sales this year. If you put the work into building your name and produce quality animals, sales will follow. Advertising is only a small portion of selling animals, people need to know who you are and what kind of business you run no matter how low you sell your stuff. I have people asking to let them know when I produce a hatchling they want this year, no advertising even involved.

 

[WingedWolf]

I don't think that supply is exceeding demand, I think it's just slow on the uptake, if that makes any sense--I think the animals will all sell, it just may take longer, and they may sell for a little bit lower than folks would like--but they'll sell.

I also think that it's WRONG to think of people who buy pairs of snakes to breed as future competitors. Do you honestly think very many people out there will ever buy a $3000 snake as JUST a pet? The up and coming breeders are your customers, not your competitors. When they're moving into the lower rungs of breeding, you'll be moving up--and they'll still be buying from you. Encourage them!

It DOES look like a great big pyramid scheme, but there is a relief valve at the bottom known as the pet trade--the lowest priced animals wind up there, and they are worth just enough to enable the owner to care for their parents. Endeavor to get more people interested in breeding reptile morphs--as they do, they'll be buying more higher-value animals, and selling the offspring they produce to newbies just getting into the hobby--there are about 7 babies being born in the US every minute. If you only get a few new herpers every hour, there are still plenty of customers up and coming.

 

[jntreptiles]

I do agree with many of the comments posted above. I have recently talked to a few breeders that upon returning from Daytona, have said that they noticed a sharp decline in their overall sales at that show, while others said they did ok.

I think overall you have your good shows and your bad shows as far as sales go, and while some people may indeed notice a decline, others may continue to remain stable an do well. I think alot is in the definition of good. Some vendors need to reach a $ goal to make it a good show, while others are happy with just selling as much as they possibly can.

I agree that the market is saturated with way to many shows, and way to much of the same animals being offered fo sale, this coupled with a troubled economy, is in part to blame for the decrease in the value of animals. These animals will eventually sell, most likely not for what they are truly worth. As things begin to get better these animals will probably see a slight rise in there overal resale value, but I doubt that they will fall back into perspective as to where they should be, and to where we would all like them to be.

 

[Bill & Amy]

These animals will eventually sell, most likely not for what they are truly worth. As things begin to get better these animals will probably see a slight rise in there overal resale value, but I doubt that they will fall back into perspective as to where they should be, and to where we would all like them to be.

I blame this on people that think they need to drop there prices every week to get the animals sold as soon as possible. I will never produce more than I can take care of and feed. So if they don't sell I will hang onto them and sell them as adults/subadults. Too many people can't afford to take care of their offspring and feel the need to dump them every year. If you can't afford to hang onto them, don't produce them.

 

[WingedWolf]

I think it's a bit unrealistic to hang onto animals stubbornly trying to get a price that they might never sell at again, though. If you're BHB or NERD, you can get away with it--those who are just starting out most certainly can't. I mean, we could all hang on to ALL of our animals and never sell any of them, but exactly what is the point of that? It's not going to make the market prices go back up, because there will always be people selling out quickly for cash in their hand. I am running a business--if the market prices drop, and I don't drop my prices with them, I will not sell anything. If I do not sell anything, I don't have much of a business, do I?

There isn't anything unethical or wrong with selling animals for the going market prices. If those prices seem too low...honestly, that just has to be accepted, that's just the way it is. I would hang on to some particularly exceptional animals and demand what I think they are worth, and doubtless I will get it, because they ARE exceptional--but if the market prices fall on the rest of them, I'll drop my prices to match. That doesn't mean lowering them every week, it just means paying attention to what the averages are on all of the advertising sites, and pricing them accordingly.

If you're not running a reptile breeding business, but are funding your breeding from some other job, then it doesn't matter if you hang on to all of your offspring every year. But if you expect your reptile breeding business to support itself, you have to sell some of them in order to sustain the business for the coming year. I don't really see the point in stating that it's a bad thing for someone to need to sell a certain amount in order to make their business viable. That just doesn't make any sense.

I've seen a lot of comments that seem to indicate that someone who isn't independently wealthy, or doesn't have an entire year's worth of funds socked away to pay for everything in case of absolute 0 income is doing something wrong by breeding snakes. I don't get it, frankly. That's just unrealistic, completely unrealistic. There is nothing wrong with managing your snake business as a business.

I won't lower my prices past a certain point, but I will certainly not hang onto all of the animals for an entire year in hopes they will sell at my original price, if that price is higher than the current market rate. That just wouldn't be a wise business move.

 

[Bill & Amy]

I think it's a bit unrealistic to hang onto animals stubbornly trying to get a price that they might never sell at again, though. If you're BHB or NERD, you can get away with it--those who are just starting out most certainly can't. I mean, we could all hang on to ALL of our animals and never sell any of them, but exactly what is the point of that? It's not going to make the market prices go back up, because there will always be people selling out quickly for cash in their hand. I am running a business--if the market prices drop, and I don't drop my prices with them, I will not sell anything. If I do not sell anything, I don't have much of a business, do I?

There isn't anything unethical or wrong with selling animals for the going market prices. If those prices seem too low...honestly, that just has to be accepted, that's just the way it is. I would hang on to some particularly exceptional animals and demand what I think they are worth, and doubtless I will get it, because they ARE exceptional--but if the market prices fall on the rest of them, I'll drop my prices to match. That doesn't mean lowering them every week, it just means paying attention to what the averages are on all of the advertising sites, and pricing them accordingly.

If you're not running a reptile breeding business, but are funding your breeding from some other job, then it doesn't matter if you hang on to all of your offspring every year. But if you expect your reptile breeding business to support itself, you have to sell some of them in order to sustain the business for the coming year. I don't really see the point in stating that it's a bad thing for someone to need to sell a certain amount in order to make their business viable. That just doesn't make any sense.

I've seen a lot of comments that seem to indicate that someone who isn't independently wealthy, or doesn't have an entire year's worth of funds socked away to pay for everything in case of absolute 0 income is doing something wrong by breeding snakes. I don't get it, frankly. That's just unrealistic, completely unrealistic. There is nothing wrong with managing your snake business as a business.

I won't lower my prices past a certain point, but I will certainly not hang onto all of the animals for an entire year in hopes they will sell at my original price, if that price is higher than the current market rate. That just wouldn't be a wise business move.

That's where the part of getting your name out there and doing the work to get the sales. Sticking an ad on 1 or 2 sites or KS doesn't qualify as "working" to get sales. Tons of people in this business makes sales and don't constanly lower prices. It seems everyone today has the "Walmart" mentality, I got to be the cheapest to sell animals. That's because they think the animals should sell themselves. They don't!!!! Then you add all the butt ugly animals people are pumping out, why? Then when they don't sell they want to slash prices. If people would start doing selective breedings and strive to produce the best quality, they could get the top dollar. Larger animals usually sell for more than hatchlings, so why not feed them and sell them later instead of just dropping prices? If you put yourself in the position that you have to sell animals to live, maybe you should rethink your business plan. Reptile breeding isn't a given, even for the easiest of species. Females reabsorb, males fail to produce, eggs go bad, odds on production can screw you.

Another thing, I know quite a few breeders who produce animals and sell out every year. Guess what, they never have to place an ad to sell anything. If you can't afford to hang on to what you produce, maybe you shouldn't produce it.

 

[Bill & Amy]

Plus something else most people don't think about. When you're trying to get sales most of the people buying from you are breeders or future breeders. If they see people dumping animal prices on a weekly or monthly basis, why would they buy into it? Would you buy into a project that is dropping in price constantly? They're cutting their own throat.

 

[Bill & Amy]

I am running a business--if the market prices drop, and I don't drop my prices with them, I will not sell anything. If I do not sell anything, I don't have much of a business, do I?

Yes, I'm psychic, I run a metaphysical business.

Guess the psychic and metaphysical business aren't working out to well huh? Have you dropped those prices as well?

 

[WingedWolf]

Since you seem so interested, my business has two branches--the metaphysical (Eclipse Metaphysical) and the snakes (Eclipse Exotics). I've run some sales and had to come up with a lot of new ideas to keep the metaphysical end up, because the recession's hit that area hard. Nevertheless, that branch is my daily living. The reptile breeding branch is something that I'm still building, and certainly isn't going to be supporting me for several more years. It does, however, support itself AND earn a profit. The bulk of that profit is promptly reinvested.

The snakes are actually doing pretty well, and my prices are mid-market, as far as I can see. I do some research before setting those prices.
This year is our first show--we're going to have a table at the Nebraska Reptile Breeders Expo. I'm quite looking forward to it. This is our second year for the snakes, and we're still learning the ins and outs, but overall I'm extremely happy with the decision I made to go into this business in the first place. You're going to be seeing us around for a long time to come.

Dropping prices don't scare me. If I start seeing morphs at the same prices as normals, then I'll worry, but I'm not holding my breath. I didn't come into this expecting to make back a 10 grand investment in 3 animals in just one year. If that ever happens, that's lovely, but I'm not expecting it.

You expect folks to breed selectively for higher quality animals--most people who aren't just starting out strive to do that, but not every animal produced, even in a good pairing, is going to be exceptional. What did you have in mind for the ones that aren't? Did you believe they would be sold only as pets? Ball python morphs rarely sell as pets.

Surely you don't expect everyone to get top dollar under this ideal system you're thinking up? That's not the way life works. The people with the best animals are still going to get top dollar, and everyone else is going to get something less than that.

Logically speaking, the lower-quality animals should be sold for less.
Well, they are being sold for less.
I think I missed what your actual complaint was.

You did say something interesting: "If you ever put yourself into a position where you have to sell animals to live, maybe you should rethink your business plan". According to this, you do not believe that breeding snakes is a viable business. You don't believe someone can earn a living doing it. That's the only reason I can think of for a comment like that. Unless you believe that a person should be independently wealthy before they begin a reptile breeding business. That would certainly enable them to never have to sell an animal to earn a living. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entire point of a business to earn a living? If not, then it's just a hobby.

 

[Bill & Amy]

You did say something interesting: "If you ever put yourself into a position where you have to sell animals to live, maybe you should rethink your business plan". According to this, you do not believe that breeding snakes is a viable business. You don't believe someone can earn a living doing it. That's the only reason I can think of for a comment like that. Unless you believe that a person should be independently wealthy before they begin a reptile breeding business. That would certainly enable them to never have to sell an animal to earn a living. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entire point of a business to earn a living? If not, then it's just a hobby.

Wow, you insinuated a lot from one sentence, must be part of your "psychic" abilities? Ask any big breeder or person that runs a "business" with live animals involved. You have to be prepared for times with little or even no sales. These people don't start dropping prices till people come in. Sales in these type of businesses can be very cyclic in nature. So if you don't have the money to live periods of time without selling animals to live. Then you need to find a day job. Polish some more rocks and capture spirits or whatever the hell you do.

 

[jglass38]

Bill,

You made some great posts and I couldn't find one to quote that I liked more than another. I vended at the White Plains show this past weekend and business was solid. The show was packed and people were buying. I can afford to hold onto animals until they sell for MY price.

I guess Donna's psychic abilities didn't help clue her in earlier to help prepare for the poor sales she is seeing. Ooops...