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Bad Guy VMSherp, Monica and Sean Niland

So what kind of proof do you need?

per your post



They deliberately set up a group of kinked leos to see if it was genetic.. .and they didnt have any kinked babies. This would be similar to and experiment that a Scientist would do to prove or disprove.

Once again... they set up an experiment to prove or disprove this theory... and their kinked leos didnt have kinked babies.

So what kind of proof do you need?

That is one person testing it out....and how long did they test it, one time, two? Maybe yes, it can skip a generation or something, but who knows if it's really still in there or not. It's completely uncertain.

How come when other breeders have bred kinked lizards they do in fact have kinked offspring off and on? Why in leopard gecko books does it say you shouldn't breed kinked geckos? We really have yet to say that it is or isn't genetics just yet.

Chelsea
 
So which is it. Above you state that kinked tails has never really be shown to go either way in leopard geckos (gentic vs. incubation abnomoly)

but in your email to Sean you state



Once again... which is it. You say to the breeder that its genetic and you cant breed the animals... but on here you say it can go either way?

maybe Im wrong here... but seems to me you were hoping to get alot more from the breeder by playing the "I cant breed them now" card. Once again... he tried to make it right by offering a full refund for return of the animals... you refused.


NO, I am NOT trying to get anything more out of the breeder. I want that whole thing to be done and over with as soon as possible.

Yes, I said that in the e-mail as in my books on leopard geckos it says it is in fact genetic, but then after asking around and going to other breeders/vet techs ect I found it's not certain either way what it could be yet.

That was -after- I sent the e-mail, but I was not going to change it for my thread and be dishonest about what I had said. So it MAY or MAY not be genetic.

chelsea
 
So what kind of proof do you need?

per your post



They deliberately set up a group of kinked leos to see if it was genetic.. .and they didnt have any kinked babies. This would be similar to and experiment that a Scientist would do to prove or disprove.

Once again... they set up an experiment to prove or disprove this theory... and their kinked leos didnt have kinked babies.

So what kind of proof do you need?

That's really not very "scientific"

How many leos were in this group? How many males/females? How many times were these animals bred? Was there an experimental group and a control group? What MORPHS were these animals? How old were they? Seems as if there might be some of the scientific method missing from this experiment.

But that's not what this thread is about.

This thread is about someone who received a group of 6 leopard geckos, 4 of which were misrepresented. It's not about how VMS handled the situation. It's not about anyone ELSE's experience with them. It was started simply to inform others of what happened in HER situation.
 
This should just be done and over with, this was more or less to inform people to -buy with caution- from them and make SURE they know what they are getting(ask for other photos or ask about deformities).

Chelsea

Then maybe... you should have used the 'info' or 'inquiry' tag or whatever it is... instead of the 'bad guy' tag.

You received an animal that was less than perfect... you contacted the seller and they tried to make it right with you. You declined. Does that really make them a bad guy.

Sure.... there should have been a notation about an animal if its not plain to see in the photo. But as I said... be glad you got to choose and see individual photos... alot of large breeders dont give you this option.
 
That's really not very "scientific"

How many leos were in this group? How many males/females? How many times were these animals bred? Was there an experimental group and a control group? What MORPHS were these animals? How old were they? Seems as if there might be some of the scientific method missing from this experiment.

But that's not what this thread is about.

This thread is about someone who received a group of 6 leopard geckos, 4 of which were misrepresented. It's not about how VMS handled the situation. It's not about anyone ELSE's experience with them. It was started simply to inform others of what happened in HER situation.

+1 and I keep trying to say this, but it continues to go on and on here.

Chelsea
 
Here is a brief synopsis of this unfortunate thread: 1 unhappy customer (or is it two?) complained to VMS. Monica, of VMS, attempts to remedy the situation using language that most business people would use out of respect for their customer, and is then accused of being a disreputable breeder. Sean, of VMS takes up the torch and attempts to explain, offers to refund the entire shipment if returned, and is then accused of mass producing deformed geckos. In subsequent posts, VMS is accused of running a herp mill, not caring about their animals, and intentionally breeding genetically flawed animals. The customer then posts that she is afraid of producing "god knows what" if she were to breed the animals she received from VMS and then announces "they used to sell to pet shops" as if that is a crime, and after declining to send the shipment back, she finishes with this final martyr's flourish: "If I send it back it may be humanely killed so I'm not going to not give it excellent care."

Who is the real bad guy here??? We've had customers purchase animals from us who have falsified stories of how their new animal died so we would replace it or refund their money--which we did, even though we knew the truth. Customer claims can be unfounded. Pictures can be photoshopped. Accidents can happen when taking an animal out of the shipping package, and mistakes can happen. Reputable breeders will act in good faith regardless. Just like VMS did. Seems to me that Chelsea's claim that VMS belongs on anyone's bad guy list is unwarranted and wholly inappropriate and, if it weren't for the intentional hurtfulness, comical.

:iagree:
 
Then maybe... you should have used the 'info' or 'inquiry' tag or whatever it is... instead of the 'bad guy' tag.

You received an animal that was less than perfect... you contacted the seller and they tried to make it right with you. You declined. Does that really make them a bad guy.

Sure.... there should have been a notation about an animal if its not plain to see in the photo. But as I said... be glad you got to choose and see individual photos... alot of large breeders dont give you this option.

Go back and read my last couple posts, I am not repeating myself AGAIN. Thank you


Chelsea
 
But as I said... be glad you got to choose and see individual photos... alot of large breeders dont give you this option.

I can understand this might be true with wholesale, but personally, I better be damn sure what i'm buying over the internet before I go ahead and pay for it.

I don't know how it is with snakes, but I know most people that buy high-end leopard geckos online ALWAYS get photos before they buy.
 
I can understand this might be true with wholesale, but personally, I better be damn sure what i'm buying over the internet before I go ahead and pay for it.

I don't know how it is with snakes, but I know most people that buy high-end leopard geckos online ALWAYS get photos before they buy.

+1

I will buy frogs without pics from a trusted breeder because there is usually little individual variation, but I would never buy a snake or lizard without them.
 
I can understand this might be true with wholesale, but personally, I better be damn sure what i'm buying over the internet before I go ahead and pay for it.

I don't know how it is with snakes, but I know most people that buy high-end leopard geckos online ALWAYS get photos before they buy.

I have for everything I have ever bought. It doesn't hurt to ask and I usually always do. Sure it might take some time, but so far everyone I have ever bought from was more than happy to send me more photos when they had the free time.

It's my fault for not doing this here, but I was very trusting and I will not be that way again.

Chelsea
 
Spin it however you want, they admitted in their email correspondence that they "have never felt tail tip kinks to be a significant issue and do not ordinarily warranty for this." I simply expect a breeder to hold themselves to a higher standard than that or they will not get my business. I was considering the purchase of several of their animals, but will not buy from them now thanks to this thread. If your standards are low enough to accept such practices, then by all means buy from them, that's on you.

Actually my standards are pretty dang high... and I have bought from them on 3 seperate occasions with perfect animals each time.

If your gonna let ONE issue deter you from doing business with someone... then you are not going to be doing business with ANYONE. Absolutely no one is perfect... not even you.... and mistakes happen. Sean tried to make it right... and the OP wouldnt let him.
 
Actually my standards are pretty dang high... and I have bought from them on 3 seperate occasions with perfect animals each time.

If your gonna let ONE issue deter you from doing business with someone... then you are not going to be doing business with ANYONE. Absolutely no one is perfect... not even you.... and mistakes happen. Sean tried to make it right... and the OP wouldnt let him.

We can keep taking this back to the refund or arguing about the same stuff over and over, but it clearly isn't the issue or main point of this entire thread.

Chelsea
 
Breeding deformed animals because he personally doesn't consider it a problem is a very big issue. You are absolutely right that nobody, myself included, is perfect, but the breeding practices he admits to are not innocent error, they are grossly negligent. As the OP has stated repeatedly, the issue is not his business practices, it's the breeding and sale of seriously flawed animals.
 
Well, nearly every pet store I have ever heard of selling animals are not very good in caring for them. *shrug*

I didn't exactly know how it -all- works, but if that is -indeed- the way it goes then I have learned something and wont say whether or not them shipping them off to pet stores is good/bad, ect. I myself just don't feel I would sell my reptiles to pet stores, but that's me then.

Chelsea


This is stereotypical at best. We have a local (well sorta... Im out in the sticks so nothing is really local) pet store that probably gives their animals better care than most individuals.

Just because you have never "heard" of them .... doesnt mean they dont exist. I personally have 2 friends that work in pet stores and they run the reptile department. Their boss listens to them... not the other way around... because my friends have been dealing with herps for a very long time.

Just like everything eles.. .there is the good and the bad.
 
You know the whole "arguing on the internet" saying....it's getting people nowhere. Has VMS been notified of this thread?
 
This is stereotypical at best. We have a local (well sorta... Im out in the sticks so nothing is really local) pet store that probably gives their animals better care than most individuals.

Just because you have never "heard" of them .... doesnt mean they dont exist. I personally have 2 friends that work in pet stores and they run the reptile department. Their boss listens to them... not the other way around... because my friends have been dealing with herps for a very long time.

Just like everything eles.. .there is the good and the bad.


This is turning into a pointless argument between you and me. I said you can continue to go back and read posts you -should- have before you randomly started commenting, but the point doesn't change. It is entirely my opinion.


Chelsea
 
You know the whole "arguing on the internet" saying....it's getting people nowhere. Has VMS been notified of this thread?

I do not know, if they have it wasn't by me. I would guess since they have such loyal supporters someone mentioned SOMETHING right off the bat.

Chelsea
 
That is one person testing it out....and how long did they test it, one time, two? Maybe yes, it can skip a generation or something, but who knows if it's really still in there or not. It's completely uncertain.

How come when other breeders have bred kinked lizards they do in fact have kinked offspring off and on? Why in leopard gecko books does it say you shouldn't breed kinked geckos? We really have yet to say that it is or isn't genetics just yet.

Chelsea

First let me say... I promise Im not trying to pick a fight with this statement.

How long have you been in reptiles and breeding? Here is why I ask.

Lets say you are breeding and you produce an anomoly (some weird pattern or color)... you hold that animal back and when its old enough to breed... you breed it back to the parent. That pairing (offspring x parent) yeilds yet another one of the weird pattern or color.

Guess what... you just PROVED that it was genetic.

So you have the original parents... you have the original new morph... and you have the offspring from the new morph when it was bred to the parents.

Your the only one working on this morph.... do you still say its not genetic?

How many people have to work with this new morph before you will accept it is genetic or not?
 
That's really not very "scientific"

How many leos were in this group? How many males/females? How many times were these animals bred? Was there an experimental group and a control group? What MORPHS were these animals? How old were they? Seems as if there might be some of the scientific method missing from this experiment.

But that's not what this thread is about.

This thread is about someone who received a group of 6 leopard geckos, 4 of which were misrepresented. It's not about how VMS handled the situation. It's not about anyone ELSE's experience with them. It was started simply to inform others of what happened in HER situation.

Is anything us breeders do really scientific? NO... we dont have labs... we have reptile rooms... and proven genetics theories to work off of.

The per your logic... your part of the problem.. cause you shouldnt be posting in this thread... As you say "Its not about anyone ELSE's experience with them"... so your posting why?

I feel that it is about how VMS handled the situation. If your gonna start a bad guy thread then you need to look at all aspects.... not just the original complaint.

How many bad guy threads have turned out to be false after further digging. :shrug01:
 
First let me say... I promise Im not trying to pick a fight with this statement.

How long have you been in reptiles and breeding? Here is why I ask.

Lets say you are breeding and you produce an anomoly (some weird pattern or color)... you hold that animal back and when its old enough to breed... you breed it back to the parent. That pairing (offspring x parent) yeilds yet another one of the weird pattern or color.

Guess what... you just PROVED that it was genetic.

So you have the original parents... you have the original new morph... and you have the offspring from the new morph when it was bred to the parents.

Your the only one working on this morph.... do you still say its not genetic?

How many people have to work with this new morph before you will accept it is genetic or not?


I have known reptiles and breeding them since I was sixteen. It hasn't been years for me like some, but I think I know enough now to have my say so in things regarding reptiles and genetics. (I breed and sell ball pythons myself, planning to eventually get a website going ect ect)

Okay, yes, say I have a new morph, honestly no I wouldn't say I had it even after that. I would go through a few times of breeding and not just once...maybe sell a couple offspring to a couple well respected breeders who can also have their say so in whether or not it was genetic when THEY breed it out to their animals.

What they did proves nothing and as is Maia stated, not very "scientific." Why you are bringing this all up again out of no where is beyond me...you like to keep going back and arguing a bunch of different things not even relevant don't you?

Chelsea
 
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