Olexian Pro
New member
Unfortunately, I am here to report some bad business and to recommend perspective buyers avoid doing business with "Touch of class reptiles" managed by Mr. Kelvin Soto and Mr. Alex Estrada.
On November 18th I purchased two W.C. emerald tree boas that were misrepresented in the add description posted and in the photo provided to me. I knew in advance that the specimens were W.C. and I am not here to dispute the risks associated with the purchase of W.C. Specimens. That is not the problem that I have. These individuals were exhibiting clear evidence of detectable disease visible to the naked eye and the photos advertised were not representative of the disease state they were in at the time of shipment. This was evident by the nature of the lesions exhibited. If the advertisement had been representative of their actual condition, I would not have bought them.
It is my belief that the disease observed was the result of poor husbandry, rather than diseases associated with being a wild caught specimen (with the exception of the parasitism noted). In short these men took a large some of money from me, evaded my communications by phone despite repeated attempts to contact them with solid laboratory evidence and while refusing to provide a refund despite their clearly stated policy they accused me of being the cause of the disease. I do not wish to go on and on here. The following is a list of our communications. I will let Mr. Soto's & Mr. Estrada's emails speak for themselves.
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 9:51 AM
Jason,
All of are snakes are unrelated. We accept all major creidt cards.
To pay with creidt card just give us a call at 305-827-5019.
Shipping is $50 and that cover the shipping and all supplies.
Male Emerald: $250
Female Emertald: $250
Shipping: $50
Total: $550
Best Regards,
Alex Estrada (Manager)
Touch of Class Reptiles
Date: Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Dear Alex & Kelvin with touch of class reptiles,
On November 18th 2009 I sent you a payment for the amount of $550.00 for one male and one female emerald tree boa. I received the specimens at about 4pm on Friday 11/20/2008. I examined samples obtained from these specimens on 11/21/2009 which prompted my communication with you today, in addition to the obvious presentation of both individuals.
In your advertisement you had stated that “These are gorgeous imports. They are all feeding vigorously on live small rats and very healthy. They have all shown no signs of parasites.” and the picture you advertized was indeed impressive. However, I regret to say that this is not the quality of the specimens that I received from you. I have included photographs of the disease lesions present on both animals as well as the organisms that I have isolated from them in my private lab, including filamentous fungi, Gram + cocci Bacteria and a blood parasite that I believe belongs to the Haemogragarine sub-group.
I also probed both snakes and in my opinion they both appear to be males,
which was not what I had originally asked for prior to placing the order. I confirmed this several times just to be sure. In this email I have included the picture from your add in addition to a copy of the add itself. I have also included pictures of the lesions present on both snakes along with the microscopic evidence suggesting that both specimens have an active, chronic infection with a remarkably heavy load of blood parasites.
On a positive note, I was extremely impressed with the quality of communications we shared over the phone and especially pleased with your speed of service. Please understand that I do not wish for this to be a confrontational communication, despite my interest in a full refund. Instead I would like to take the opportunity to resolve this in a professional manner, though I ask for your sympathy in understanding that I am concerned with having these individuals in my house, amongst the other members of my collection. For this reason I ask that you contact me as soon as possible as I would like to communicate with you to determine the best avenue for reaching a resolution that is reasonable for both parties. You may reach me via personal email ([email protected]), via my website (www.avherp.com), or by phone (706-614-4311). Given my work availability, emails are likely to be the easiest and most accessible means of communicating with me. Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
(Side Note: This is when I sent him pictures of the animals and the lab data I collected.)
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:09 PM
Jason,
Please give us a call 305-827-5019
thanks,
touch of class
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:18 PM
Dear Alex & Kelvin,
I tried calling you today at 5:05pm to speak with you in person and the phone rang approximately 12 times followed by a message that said "Answer Off." I want you to know that I did attempt to contacting you and that I have been engaged with clients for most of the day, which is why I have been unable to reach you earlier in the day. Please understand that I am a veterinary student working in clinics at the University of Georgia and that it is difficult for me to get away on break when I am working with clients in the exam room and monitoring patients undergoing surgery. I do apologize for the inconvenience of my schedule despite my strong desire to speak with you in person. I will try calling you again today and, if I am unable to reach you, I will attempt again tomorrow when my supervisor allows me to step out of the clinic. Meanwhile, as I said in my last communication with you it may be easiest to communicate via email, however I do understand the necessity for us to engage in this conversation in person. I do appreciate your prompt reply and your attention to this matter and I look forward to speaking with you soon.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
Date: Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:01 AM
Dear Alex,
I just wanted to touch base with you. I tried calling a second time yesterday afternoon with the hope of reaching you and again thismorning at 8:50am and received the same message stating "Answer off" after approximatly 12-14 rings. Are you by chance experience difficulty with your phone line? If not what are your hours of operation so that I may get in touch with you. Please let me know. Meanwhile my number ia 706-614-4311 if you have the opportunity to call me in return. I cannot answer if I am in surgery or enguaged with a client but I can return your message shortly thereafter. Thanks again for all your assistance with this matter.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
Date: Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:34 AM
Jason,
We are sorry we couldnt get to the phone this moruning.
Jason may i ask you why you didnt make us aware of the problem imeadeatly when the snakes were recieved?
We shipped the snakes out on Novemebr 19,2009, the snakes arrived to you Novemebr 20,2009 4:08pm (acording to the UPS tracking info),
you send us the email on November 22,2009 7:37pm. Why were we not made aware of the problem the the snakes were recieved?
Also that seems like a serious fungus and we would not ship out a snake in that condition...
here is a link to our terms and conditions (http://www.touchofclassreptiles.info/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121&Itemid=150) ..I understand your busy schedule but understand our part...we were made aware of the problem 51 hours and 45 minutes after the snakes were recieved.
Regards,
Kelvin Soto
Touch of Class
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:09 PM
Dear Kelvin,
As you stated the animals did arrive on Novemebr 20,2009 4:08pm at the specified shipping address. I received the specimens (sealed in the box that they were shipped in) from the individual that I entrusted to receive them late Friday evening, minutes prior to being called back to the University for an emergency call inroute to the University zoological medicine ward. As a student I am required to be on call 24/7 and when called I am required to arrive at the clinic within 30 minutes of receiving that call and that is why I was unable to contact you at that time. I placed the animals into my isolation ward, in which they remained with the appropriate necessities untill I examined them sunday afternoon. Given the morubund condition of the patient I was assigned to at the clinic, I was not able to return home until late Saturday evening because my services were required throughout the course of the night and the following day. Unfortunatly the patient was pronounced dead late saturday evening at which time I was permitted to return home. Sunday was the first oportunity available to me to examine the animals and to perform the blood smears, cytology preps and photographs, which I sent to you in my email sunday evening.
Furthermore, the animals in my collection remain strictly isolated and I prevent them from encountering new additions until a mandatory 6 month quarentine period has elapsed. My collection is and has been 100% free of disease for more than 5 years as they receive bi-annual physical exams performed both by myself and an attending veterinarian. This infection could not have developed merely as a result of these animals comming into my home. Additionally, it is extensively published that the average incubation period of a fungal infection ranges anywhere between one to four weeks, with a mean average of 2 weeks for most dermatophytes and that bacterial incubation periods typically range anywhere from 7 to 14 days depending on the virulence of the organism, with an average incbation time of about 10 days. Viruses, which this is deffinatly not, may ensure in a matter of hours to days to weeks to months depending on the virus. /following the incubation period animals may become clinical and begin showing signs of disease especially if immune incompetance occurs and as you stated so readily, the animals were only in my possession for a period of approximatly 52 hours. Thats only a little more than 2 days. If this were a virus I would be inclined to agree, but I have provided you evidence that this is not of viral origin.
Please understand that I am not trying to suggest that you knowingly sent me sick animals and that I am not commenting on the quality of the animals breed and or sell. This is not the case and I am certainly not placing any blame as these things do happen quite commonly especially among individuals that engage in sales/trade. Animals get sick. Thats why the veterinary profession exists in the first place. These individuals may very well have been on the cusp of the incbation period and it is likely that you did not know it at the time that they were shipped. What I am suggesting is that these animals were innoculated with infectious organisms prior shipment. It is because they are sick that I do not want them in the same household with the other expensive members of my collection as many of these infectious particles can become arisolized and travel through air circulation and ductwork. Additionally, the information that I quoted concerning incubation of both bacterial and fungal infections happens to be thoroughly published and well documented in the literature along with the notion that reptiles can, and often do, remain asymptomatic until the severity of infection progresses to a level such that severe systemic disease ensues. This is well outlined in many texts including both editions of "Douglass Maders Reptile Medicine & Surgery" which states specifically that reptiles can remain subclinical for periods as long as six months before manifesting clinical signs, which is why the quarentine periods for reptiles are recommended to be no less than 6 months.
Again, I am not attempting to make negative accusations here as I do not feel that you knowingly sent me sick animals and I am not suggesting that you maintain sick animals intentionally. I am merely stating that it is more than likely that these specimens were innoculated weeks prior to shipping. My concerns here are mutual for both you and I and this will be likely to have a profound impact on the other members of your live stock. No less, there is ample evidence that these animals did not acquire this disease, while in my care. I can also obtain documentation from a licensed veterinarian verifying this for you if you wish, but then it raises question concerning who will pay for the bill resulting from the examination and for the treatment required for these individuals, which can easily exceed the value of the reptiles themselves.
Upon receiving your email, I viewed your notification policy and do not feel that I am in in violation of it given the details I just explained and especially that I did notify you within 52 hours which negates the possibility of them developing this disease while in my care, given that 52 hours is not sufficient time for an animal to become infected, then to allow the minimum 5 day (if bacterial) or minimum 7 day (if fungal) incubation period to elapse followed by the progression of clinical signs. There is no doubt these animals have been sick for some time, regardless of whether or not they were exhibiting clinical signs at the time that they were shipped. I will again try to contact you at the next available time so that we may discuss this more in person and I want you to know that I am not yet displease with your company. As I said, these things do happen and I have no doubt that you do everything in your power to maintain a pristine stock of animals in association with your business. Sometimes animals just get sick and theres not much that can be done to avoid it, just like in human medicine. No less, I would advise you to be very concerned for the other animals in your possestion that may have come into contact with these specimens directly, through fomites such as cage decore, or possiblly through common heating and ventilation within the same building. Thank you again for your time and attention concerning this matter and I look forward to speaking with you soon.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 12:52 PM
Jason,
If you are a vet then you understand that this type of infection or fungus does not appear withing 24 hours.
Those "scars" are really bad and we would not ship out a snake looking like that.
Best Regards,
Touch of Class
(Side Note: I am not a vet, I am a 4th year vet student. Mr. Soto paid very little attention to the details in the emails that I sent him. It was very apparent to me that he didn’t care about this at all.)
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 12:57 PM
Jason,
Here are the pictures of the snakes before we sent them to you that you.
- 2 Pictures Were Included -
(Side Note: There was not enough room to post these pictures on Fauna Classifieds for all to see, but I do have the pictures available and would be happy to send them to anyone that is interested in addition to pictures of the snakes I actually have. They are not the same individuals. On seeing them, I’m sure you will agree.)
Date: Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 12:17 AM
Gentleman,
This is not how we conduct honest business and you should be ashamed. I have an eye witness who watched me remove these animals from their containers on the day they were received and that witness is as credible as they come. In addition, it obvious that those individuals are not the specimens that you sent me based on their unmistakable pattern and the intensity of their color alone. I am now quite irritated with your company and your repeated attempts at deception. It has also come to my attention that this is not the first time your company has engaged in foul business. You can be expect to hear from me and my representatives soon.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
Date: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:09 AM
Jason,
if you removed animals when you got them. Why did you not call or email?
Regards,
Kelvin Soto
Touch of Class
Date: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 2:38 PM
Kelvin,
Did you not read any of the emails I sent you. That question has already been answered.
It is obvious that you do not share much concern for this matter. Tisk Tisk
On November 18th I purchased two W.C. emerald tree boas that were misrepresented in the add description posted and in the photo provided to me. I knew in advance that the specimens were W.C. and I am not here to dispute the risks associated with the purchase of W.C. Specimens. That is not the problem that I have. These individuals were exhibiting clear evidence of detectable disease visible to the naked eye and the photos advertised were not representative of the disease state they were in at the time of shipment. This was evident by the nature of the lesions exhibited. If the advertisement had been representative of their actual condition, I would not have bought them.
It is my belief that the disease observed was the result of poor husbandry, rather than diseases associated with being a wild caught specimen (with the exception of the parasitism noted). In short these men took a large some of money from me, evaded my communications by phone despite repeated attempts to contact them with solid laboratory evidence and while refusing to provide a refund despite their clearly stated policy they accused me of being the cause of the disease. I do not wish to go on and on here. The following is a list of our communications. I will let Mr. Soto's & Mr. Estrada's emails speak for themselves.
Date: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 9:51 AM
Jason,
All of are snakes are unrelated. We accept all major creidt cards.
To pay with creidt card just give us a call at 305-827-5019.
Shipping is $50 and that cover the shipping and all supplies.
Male Emerald: $250
Female Emertald: $250
Shipping: $50
Total: $550
Best Regards,
Alex Estrada (Manager)
Touch of Class Reptiles
Date: Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Dear Alex & Kelvin with touch of class reptiles,
On November 18th 2009 I sent you a payment for the amount of $550.00 for one male and one female emerald tree boa. I received the specimens at about 4pm on Friday 11/20/2008. I examined samples obtained from these specimens on 11/21/2009 which prompted my communication with you today, in addition to the obvious presentation of both individuals.
In your advertisement you had stated that “These are gorgeous imports. They are all feeding vigorously on live small rats and very healthy. They have all shown no signs of parasites.” and the picture you advertized was indeed impressive. However, I regret to say that this is not the quality of the specimens that I received from you. I have included photographs of the disease lesions present on both animals as well as the organisms that I have isolated from them in my private lab, including filamentous fungi, Gram + cocci Bacteria and a blood parasite that I believe belongs to the Haemogragarine sub-group.
I also probed both snakes and in my opinion they both appear to be males,
which was not what I had originally asked for prior to placing the order. I confirmed this several times just to be sure. In this email I have included the picture from your add in addition to a copy of the add itself. I have also included pictures of the lesions present on both snakes along with the microscopic evidence suggesting that both specimens have an active, chronic infection with a remarkably heavy load of blood parasites.
On a positive note, I was extremely impressed with the quality of communications we shared over the phone and especially pleased with your speed of service. Please understand that I do not wish for this to be a confrontational communication, despite my interest in a full refund. Instead I would like to take the opportunity to resolve this in a professional manner, though I ask for your sympathy in understanding that I am concerned with having these individuals in my house, amongst the other members of my collection. For this reason I ask that you contact me as soon as possible as I would like to communicate with you to determine the best avenue for reaching a resolution that is reasonable for both parties. You may reach me via personal email ([email protected]), via my website (www.avherp.com), or by phone (706-614-4311). Given my work availability, emails are likely to be the easiest and most accessible means of communicating with me. Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
(Side Note: This is when I sent him pictures of the animals and the lab data I collected.)
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:09 PM
Jason,
Please give us a call 305-827-5019
thanks,
touch of class
Date: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:18 PM
Dear Alex & Kelvin,
I tried calling you today at 5:05pm to speak with you in person and the phone rang approximately 12 times followed by a message that said "Answer Off." I want you to know that I did attempt to contacting you and that I have been engaged with clients for most of the day, which is why I have been unable to reach you earlier in the day. Please understand that I am a veterinary student working in clinics at the University of Georgia and that it is difficult for me to get away on break when I am working with clients in the exam room and monitoring patients undergoing surgery. I do apologize for the inconvenience of my schedule despite my strong desire to speak with you in person. I will try calling you again today and, if I am unable to reach you, I will attempt again tomorrow when my supervisor allows me to step out of the clinic. Meanwhile, as I said in my last communication with you it may be easiest to communicate via email, however I do understand the necessity for us to engage in this conversation in person. I do appreciate your prompt reply and your attention to this matter and I look forward to speaking with you soon.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
Date: Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:01 AM
Dear Alex,
I just wanted to touch base with you. I tried calling a second time yesterday afternoon with the hope of reaching you and again thismorning at 8:50am and received the same message stating "Answer off" after approximatly 12-14 rings. Are you by chance experience difficulty with your phone line? If not what are your hours of operation so that I may get in touch with you. Please let me know. Meanwhile my number ia 706-614-4311 if you have the opportunity to call me in return. I cannot answer if I am in surgery or enguaged with a client but I can return your message shortly thereafter. Thanks again for all your assistance with this matter.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
Date: Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:34 AM
Jason,
We are sorry we couldnt get to the phone this moruning.
Jason may i ask you why you didnt make us aware of the problem imeadeatly when the snakes were recieved?
We shipped the snakes out on Novemebr 19,2009, the snakes arrived to you Novemebr 20,2009 4:08pm (acording to the UPS tracking info),
you send us the email on November 22,2009 7:37pm. Why were we not made aware of the problem the the snakes were recieved?
Also that seems like a serious fungus and we would not ship out a snake in that condition...
here is a link to our terms and conditions (http://www.touchofclassreptiles.info/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121&Itemid=150) ..I understand your busy schedule but understand our part...we were made aware of the problem 51 hours and 45 minutes after the snakes were recieved.
Regards,
Kelvin Soto
Touch of Class
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:09 PM
Dear Kelvin,
As you stated the animals did arrive on Novemebr 20,2009 4:08pm at the specified shipping address. I received the specimens (sealed in the box that they were shipped in) from the individual that I entrusted to receive them late Friday evening, minutes prior to being called back to the University for an emergency call inroute to the University zoological medicine ward. As a student I am required to be on call 24/7 and when called I am required to arrive at the clinic within 30 minutes of receiving that call and that is why I was unable to contact you at that time. I placed the animals into my isolation ward, in which they remained with the appropriate necessities untill I examined them sunday afternoon. Given the morubund condition of the patient I was assigned to at the clinic, I was not able to return home until late Saturday evening because my services were required throughout the course of the night and the following day. Unfortunatly the patient was pronounced dead late saturday evening at which time I was permitted to return home. Sunday was the first oportunity available to me to examine the animals and to perform the blood smears, cytology preps and photographs, which I sent to you in my email sunday evening.
Furthermore, the animals in my collection remain strictly isolated and I prevent them from encountering new additions until a mandatory 6 month quarentine period has elapsed. My collection is and has been 100% free of disease for more than 5 years as they receive bi-annual physical exams performed both by myself and an attending veterinarian. This infection could not have developed merely as a result of these animals comming into my home. Additionally, it is extensively published that the average incubation period of a fungal infection ranges anywhere between one to four weeks, with a mean average of 2 weeks for most dermatophytes and that bacterial incubation periods typically range anywhere from 7 to 14 days depending on the virulence of the organism, with an average incbation time of about 10 days. Viruses, which this is deffinatly not, may ensure in a matter of hours to days to weeks to months depending on the virus. /following the incubation period animals may become clinical and begin showing signs of disease especially if immune incompetance occurs and as you stated so readily, the animals were only in my possession for a period of approximatly 52 hours. Thats only a little more than 2 days. If this were a virus I would be inclined to agree, but I have provided you evidence that this is not of viral origin.
Please understand that I am not trying to suggest that you knowingly sent me sick animals and that I am not commenting on the quality of the animals breed and or sell. This is not the case and I am certainly not placing any blame as these things do happen quite commonly especially among individuals that engage in sales/trade. Animals get sick. Thats why the veterinary profession exists in the first place. These individuals may very well have been on the cusp of the incbation period and it is likely that you did not know it at the time that they were shipped. What I am suggesting is that these animals were innoculated with infectious organisms prior shipment. It is because they are sick that I do not want them in the same household with the other expensive members of my collection as many of these infectious particles can become arisolized and travel through air circulation and ductwork. Additionally, the information that I quoted concerning incubation of both bacterial and fungal infections happens to be thoroughly published and well documented in the literature along with the notion that reptiles can, and often do, remain asymptomatic until the severity of infection progresses to a level such that severe systemic disease ensues. This is well outlined in many texts including both editions of "Douglass Maders Reptile Medicine & Surgery" which states specifically that reptiles can remain subclinical for periods as long as six months before manifesting clinical signs, which is why the quarentine periods for reptiles are recommended to be no less than 6 months.
Again, I am not attempting to make negative accusations here as I do not feel that you knowingly sent me sick animals and I am not suggesting that you maintain sick animals intentionally. I am merely stating that it is more than likely that these specimens were innoculated weeks prior to shipping. My concerns here are mutual for both you and I and this will be likely to have a profound impact on the other members of your live stock. No less, there is ample evidence that these animals did not acquire this disease, while in my care. I can also obtain documentation from a licensed veterinarian verifying this for you if you wish, but then it raises question concerning who will pay for the bill resulting from the examination and for the treatment required for these individuals, which can easily exceed the value of the reptiles themselves.
Upon receiving your email, I viewed your notification policy and do not feel that I am in in violation of it given the details I just explained and especially that I did notify you within 52 hours which negates the possibility of them developing this disease while in my care, given that 52 hours is not sufficient time for an animal to become infected, then to allow the minimum 5 day (if bacterial) or minimum 7 day (if fungal) incubation period to elapse followed by the progression of clinical signs. There is no doubt these animals have been sick for some time, regardless of whether or not they were exhibiting clinical signs at the time that they were shipped. I will again try to contact you at the next available time so that we may discuss this more in person and I want you to know that I am not yet displease with your company. As I said, these things do happen and I have no doubt that you do everything in your power to maintain a pristine stock of animals in association with your business. Sometimes animals just get sick and theres not much that can be done to avoid it, just like in human medicine. No less, I would advise you to be very concerned for the other animals in your possestion that may have come into contact with these specimens directly, through fomites such as cage decore, or possiblly through common heating and ventilation within the same building. Thank you again for your time and attention concerning this matter and I look forward to speaking with you soon.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 12:52 PM
Jason,
If you are a vet then you understand that this type of infection or fungus does not appear withing 24 hours.
Those "scars" are really bad and we would not ship out a snake looking like that.
Best Regards,
Touch of Class
(Side Note: I am not a vet, I am a 4th year vet student. Mr. Soto paid very little attention to the details in the emails that I sent him. It was very apparent to me that he didn’t care about this at all.)
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 12:57 PM
Jason,
Here are the pictures of the snakes before we sent them to you that you.
- 2 Pictures Were Included -
(Side Note: There was not enough room to post these pictures on Fauna Classifieds for all to see, but I do have the pictures available and would be happy to send them to anyone that is interested in addition to pictures of the snakes I actually have. They are not the same individuals. On seeing them, I’m sure you will agree.)
Date: Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 12:17 AM
Gentleman,
This is not how we conduct honest business and you should be ashamed. I have an eye witness who watched me remove these animals from their containers on the day they were received and that witness is as credible as they come. In addition, it obvious that those individuals are not the specimens that you sent me based on their unmistakable pattern and the intensity of their color alone. I am now quite irritated with your company and your repeated attempts at deception. It has also come to my attention that this is not the first time your company has engaged in foul business. You can be expect to hear from me and my representatives soon.
Sincerely,
Jason Olech
Date: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:09 AM
Jason,
if you removed animals when you got them. Why did you not call or email?
Regards,
Kelvin Soto
Touch of Class
Date: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 2:38 PM
Kelvin,
Did you not read any of the emails I sent you. That question has already been answered.
It is obvious that you do not share much concern for this matter. Tisk Tisk
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