WTH Rich!

[WebSlave]

So you don't have to wait, Rich...page two, right hand column, I think.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1502.pdf

Oops...that says California. That was the first thingie on Google. I'll keep looking...sorry.

Actually, I do believe you are right. That cut and paste appears to be directly from the California Natural Resources Agency DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME NATIVE REPTILE CAPTIVE PROPAGATION LAWS AND REGULATIONS

I know I researched the Florida laws quite extensively and never saw anything like that.

Xanaxez, where exactly did you find that text you cut and pasted earlier? Was it from someplace OTHER than a California specific document?

 

[SPJ]

Posting laws from other states is of no help.

This thread was about my disapointment in what happened and it has snowballed into a nasty bitchfest.

I said my piece so I'm outta here.

 

[kmarsh]

Thanks for clearing that up. That is also the problem with posting period. No one can tell the intent of the way things are said. No snipping here just a broken heart as I have read all of this. I guess I live in a smaller reptile world where I had no idea the bigger scale of things. I have a hard time letting go of the hardest to deal with reptile here. I can't begin to think of putting down or releasing a "few hundred" non feeders. I have heard and seen the horrible pics of puppy mills but the more of read of this situation and the stuff about the US GLobal raid, its beginning to sound horribly familiar. IF this is the case we need to wake up as a industry and stop grasping at the almighty dollar. Is this what we have come to? Where there is no feeling to putting down this many non feeding snakes? I am NO PETA supporter or any of those associations but feel we need to stop and rethink what we are doing and if this is happening, stop fueling their cause. The more I read the worse this sounds.

 

[critical bill]

Actually, I do believe you are right. That cut and paste appears to be directly from the California Natural Resources Agency DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME NATIVE REPTILE CAPTIVE PROPAGATION LAWS AND REGULATIONS

I know I researched the Florida laws quite extensively and never saw anything like that.

Xanaxez, where exactly did you find that text you cut and pasted earlier? Was it from someplace OTHER than a California specific document?

Wow, look at that, he actually provided false information to support his argument.

Whoda thunk he was capable of doing something so low like that? That from a guy who strives to find and provide only the facts.

I'm shocked!

 

[WebSlave]

Wow, look at that, he actually provided false information to support his argument.

Whoda thunk he was capable of doing something so low like that? That from a guy who strives to find and provide only the facts.

I'm shocked!

Yeah, is this the extremes people are willing to go to in order to drag me through the mud? You all have NO idea how glad I am that I have quit this business right about now. Many of them are acting like starving rats in a lifeboat that ran out of food two days ago. Don't DARE turn your back on them or fall asleep....

Quite honestly I'm completely disgusted by this entire "industry" right now...

And I've beaten my head against the wall for years to keep the BOI helping people for THIS?

 

[polasian]

It's bad enough that the government and the average person thinks we all release snakes into the wild in Florida and now this!
More ammunition to ban the ownership of snakes!

Agreed!...but from a different perspective. Oh wait...thats right..your intent is to show the "world" that the community doesn't condone this type of behavior?...are you delusional enough to believe that the "world" is the one who's watching? The world only sees what PETA plasters up on tomorrows front page...they see that 4' red tailed boa labeled as a "KILLER BURMESE PYTHON" and believe it to be fact. They see that news program of some PETA rally where they force their children to hold up pictures of king cobra bite victims from half way around the world...while chanting "hide your women and children...the corn snakes are coming." The ONLY thing a thread like that will accomplish is to put more bullets in the clip of the PETA fanatics. They don't campaign with facts...they are fear mongers who play on peoples emotions.

This could have been a VERY constructive thread...but Jesus Christ man...NOT now and NOT in this tone. Don't even dare sit there saying that your intention was to stimulate a debate. That concept was thrown out the window with the VERY FIRST 3 LETTERS YOU TYPED...."W.T.H"?!?!?! Why play games...why not just replace that H with and F. That was one POOR attempt at masking your contempt with civility.

Its impossible to even look at this thread constructively. 200+ posts...subtract the redundancy...subtract the "yea...well...well...your ugly" type posts...and whats left???...a half paged thread that is a miserable spin-off of the original cornsnakes thread. The ONLY positive thing that i can see coming from your banter is that if someone, who has enough juice to press that "herp ban" button, happens to stumble on this...all that back and forth rubbish will HOPEFULLY convince them to view this with a grain of salt.

Are your rebuttals supposed to represent the strength of the platform your standing on?...if so, then i hope you didn't twist your ankle while that thing crumbled somewhere half way through page one. You've spent the better part of 3 days looking up "facts" to verify some obscure unspecific laws? You want to talk about FL law...Did you know that women may be fined for falling asleep under a hair dryer, as can the salon owner? Did you know that men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown (sorry to burst your bubble Chuck)? Did you know It is illegal to skateboard without a license? Hell, right now i am probably breaking some law by wearing a brown tee shirt on the first sun of the new month. (since everyone wants "proof"...here you go...http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/florida ) Your jumping on Rich for everything from...saving the BOI, to buying a car, to field herping??? Rich, for your sake, i REALLY hope you don't wipe your ass with your left hand...otherwise pack up and flee to Mexico.

I know this post is off topic, since I'm not talking about the issue at hand. I'm just trying to address all the garbage left in its wake. When will people realize that NOT EVERYTHING YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IS WRONG!

Sometimes its best to just SHUT THE FK UP!

 

[Laura Fopiano]

There are reasons that I have stayed off of the reptile forums in the past few months....this thread is one of many.

I am a member here and for the most part, I like most of the members here.

I am a member of the BLBC and the same goes there.

I support USARK and PIJAC.

I keep boa contstrictors and at the moment, my focus is in writing letters to my state's senators about S373, As should be the focus of the keepers on this forum and all of the others.

I love animals, all animals. I move turtles, toads, frogs and any snake that I see in the road here as people in my state would rather hit them than see them thrive in their natural enviroment.

I am not here to chastise Rich for something that he did in the past, whether I disagree with it or not. I am not here to protect or "have the back" of any participant in this thread. I respect the BOI and what it's intentions are. I respect all of the forums that I chose to go to. And I guess that is what the bottom line here is....choice.

May 2010 allow all of us the ability to make wise choices, not have them taken away.

 

[critical bill]

Yeah, is this the extremes people are willing to go to in order to drag me through the mud? You all have NO idea how glad I am that I have quit this business right about now. Many of them are acting like starving rats in a lifeboat that ran out of food two days ago. Don't DARE turn your back on them or fall asleep....

Quite honestly I'm completely disgusted by this entire "industry" right now...

And I've beaten my head against the wall for years to keep the BOI helping people for THIS?

LMAO. I'm sorry, I know this whole thing isn't funny, but that starving rat comment had me rolling.

As for the BOI, your work isn't in vain, and don't let a small handful of people make you feel different. I appreciate your hard work and efforts.

There is one thing I don't agree with though, why ban people? Fine and suspend them and make some money out of it. You had this implemented in the past, and it may have been a hassle for you back when you had a business to run and stuff but surely that's changed now. If people want to try to take a crap on you and this site make it cost them.

But that's a different topic so maybe I'll make some suggestions for site improvements in the feedback forum.

 

[critical bill]

Did you know that men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown (sorry to burst your bubble Chuck)?

Its ok, I'm kind of big chested, I haven't been able to go strapless since third grade.

 

[KelliH]

Thanks for clearing that up. That is also the problem with posting period. No one can tell the intent of the way things are said. No snipping here just a broken heart as I have read all of this. I guess I live in a smaller reptile world where I had no idea the bigger scale of things. I have a hard time letting go of the hardest to deal with reptile here. I can't begin to think of putting down or releasing a "few hundred" non feeders. I have heard and seen the horrible pics of puppy mills but the more of read of this situation and the stuff about the US GLobal raid, its beginning to sound horribly familiar. IF this is the case we need to wake up as a industry and stop grasping at the almighty dollar. Is this what we have come to? Where there is no feeling to putting down this many non feeding snakes? I am NO PETA supporter or any of those associations but feel we need to stop and rethink what we are doing and if this is happening, stop fueling their cause. The more I read the worse this sounds.

I think that if you cannot mentally handle culling unhealthy, deformed or otherwise genetically weak animals then you should not breed animals period.

 

[JordanAng420]

I think that if you cannot mentally handle culling unhealthy, deformed or otherwise genetically weak animals then you should not breed animals period.

I agree 1000%.

 

[kmarsh]

If You have "hundreds" not feeding or for what ever reason you feel you have that many to put down or release into the wild or what ever then it would seem there is a real problem or something wrong to have that many bad that need to be discarded. Sounds funny but such disregard for animal lives such as this being condoned is how Peta and such groups formed. They were out to do good to start with because they saw such disregard for animal lives. Sadly, or shall I say, gullably I thought only puppy mills were bad. I never heard of them throwing hundreds of pups into a freezer and freezing them to death. Guess I am too sheltered, thankfully so.

 

[Twizted Paths]

Most animal mills just leave them to die in the cages and have mass burial pits to dump the carcasses in.

Any breeder of any type of animal has to be prepared to cull. It's just not generally discussed nor is it always done for good reasons.

AKC show dogs, for example - if one is born with a non acceptable color/pattern/marking/coat it is culled. If the ratio of show quality to cull is still profitable enough the same two will be bred again even if every litter results in pups that get culled just for a coat texture or marking. These aren't mills, they are the producers of the cream of the crop. I'm not condoning or approving of culling for such superficial reasons (hello spay n neutral option w/mammals), I'm just saying it happens.**

Back to this - It doesn't mean anything's wrong. You have to factor in how long he was breeding and the sheer number produced in such a span of time. Problem eaters don't mean there's something wrong with the snake itself, other than the fact it's not behaving as the more domesticated ones are.

And yes, we ARE domesticating our reptiles. Part of that process is breeding for ones that eat the prey WE want them to - this means removing the ones that won't from the gene pool. Most breeders do this by culling them or dumping them in the market so somebody (usually inexperienced/trusting) does it for them unintentionally.



**Edit - Not all AKC breeders do this. I didn't word the beginning of that paragraph well at all.

 

[hhmoore]

If You have "hundreds" not feeding or for what ever reason you feel you have that many to put down or release into the wild or what ever then it would seem there is a real problem or something wrong to have that many bad that need to be discarded. Sounds funny but such disregard for animal lives such as this being condoned is how Peta and such groups formed. They were out to do good to start with because they saw such disregard for animal lives. Sadly, or shall I say, gullably I thought only puppy mills were bad. I never heard of them throwing hundreds of pups into a freezer and freezing them to death. Guess I am too sheltered, thankfully so.

Think about it this way, is 3 non (or poor) feeders out of every 100 babies a "real problem"? That's 30 out of every 1000 babies. Any idea how many babies Rich produced annually? And keep in mind Rich's response when he visited the Bell's facility (check out that video if you want an eye opener)...reptile breeding might be a hobby to many of us, but it's big business for a fair number of people. I don't necessarily agree with the puppy mill comparison - though, without doubt, it is fitting in some instances. Not all large scale or big name dog breeders are puppy mills - heck, I've seen quite a few home based/backyard breeders that function with the same mentality...and the same goes for reptile breeders, from hobbyists right up to the big names. Don't let generalizations and preconceptions mix the good with the bad.

 

[WebSlave]

If You have "hundreds" not feeding or for what ever reason you feel you have that many to put down or release into the wild or what ever then it would seem there is a real problem or something wrong to have that many bad that need to be discarded. Sounds funny but such disregard for animal lives such as this being condoned is how Peta and such groups formed. They were out to do good to start with because they saw such disregard for animal lives. Sadly, or shall I say, gullably I thought only puppy mills were bad. I never heard of them throwing hundreds of pups into a freezer and freezing them to death. Guess I am too sheltered, thankfully so.

It's really not anywhere that number of problem animals. The past several years I have produced between 3,000 and 6,000 animals (one year I did hit around 8,000 but I swore I never wanted to do that again). In any given year, there might have been two or three dozen MAXIMUM that were released. This works out to be about .5% of the total hatching out on average, which is really not bad, statistically. Really no more then a couple of normal sized clutches of corns naturally hatching out, so it's not at all like the locale was being flooded with them. Most baby corns will go on feed if you have the time and patience along with a good supply of frozen green anoles. But there will always be a small percentage that just are not interested in anything you offer them, and they are insistent upon apparently starving themselves to death rather then take what you are offering. Seriously, when you have 3,000 babies that are willing to eat, the incentive to spend 20 minutes per pain in the ass snake to get them feeding will soon fade. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and give up on them.

Corns that have been selectively bred for years with good feed response as part of the criteria will naturally get easier and easier to get started on pinky mice. If you specifically select your next generation breeding stock with that in mind, life WILL get easier for you over time. There are always going to be animals that just do NOT want to be in captivity and they will tell you that by reacting negatively to your presence or just constantly looking for an escape and damaging their nose if you allow them to persist. Is it fair to kill them because of that? Would they really do any better in someone else's care? Sometimes you just have to be perceptive enough to know what an animal wants, and compassionate enough to grant it. Sure most seem perfectly content if their environmental needs are met, but just like not all people are the same, corn snakes will have the same sort of variation in personalities and desires. It's really not all that tough to understand your animals if you pay close attention to them.

Sorry if I gave you the impression that large numbers of babies were such a problem...

 

[Helenthereef]

I had three captive borns from wild caught parents native to the country I live in.
Two ate, one insisted on starving itself to death. I released it into the wild rather than watch the process, felt I had at least given it every chance I could.
Still don't see anything wrong with that decision.

 

[WebSlave]

There is one thing I don't agree with though, why ban people? Fine and suspend them and make some money out of it. You had this implemented in the past, and it may have been a hassle for you back when you had a business to run and stuff but surely that's changed now. If people want to try to take a crap on you and this site make it cost them.

I guess I should have my WebSlave hat on to answer this, but I'm feeling too lazy to change it right now.

The fine and suspension system really didn't work all that well. It cost me a bundle in custom programming, and would have cost even more to transport during the latest upgrade. Most people refused to pay the $10 fine, so they were effectively banned anyway. And on top of that I was accused of being a money grubbing asshole for implementing a fine. Even when they paid a fine and returned, many retained a chip on their shoulder evermore, which eventually blew up over some pretext. So they can just stay gone.

In the case of the bans because of this thread, I don't care how much money those people would be willing to pay for a fine. I don't want them USING this site any longer. Not with the crap they were dumping on my head. I may very well go check another site that I know they congregate at and any members here participating in like bashing will get booted out of here as well. Sorry, I'm sure some will think that it's not right I do that, but I have a greatly reduced tolerance for back stabbers lately and they can just kiss my ass if they think they can stab me in the back one place and then come back here to utilize the resources of this site as well. I do hope they chose their words wisely in their postings. Yes, I do understand that no one really NEEDS this site. So hopefully the severing of ties will be mutually agreeable to everyone.

As for that xanaxez guy, I'm giving him 24 hours to come up with the URL of that cut and paste quote he made. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he actually did find a legitimate source of illegality to show me and did not PURPOSELY copy text from a California oriented website. If he fails to do so, I will simply assume that his actions were deceitful and malicious, as well as self serving, to try to cause me harm, and his ass will be booted out of here as well.

I guess in the past I always hoped people could change for the better if I just had enough tolerance and patience. Well, screw that idea. I just got kicked in the teeth most of the time. So I'm going to just cut my losses and get them out of my life. I used to actually feel guilty about banning people, but lately over the past year or two I have been amazed at how contented I have been, thinking I don't have to dread seeing new posts from certain individuals here. I think shedding the back stabbers and vicious fanatical factions here can't help but make this a better place anyway, as well as an improvement to my own life.

Yeah, I know I will catch flak for this as well, but I am convinced that some people here do not have the best interests of this site nor me (obviously!) at heart. I intend to get rid of that faction as quickly as I can zero in on them. I just am not interested in running this site for their use any longer.

 

[Twizted Paths]

Don't let generalizations and preconceptions mix the good with the bad.

I totally failed at proper qualifiers/wording in the beginning of that AKC paragraph

 

[critical bill]

I had three captive borns from wild caught parents native to the country I live in.
Two ate, one insisted on starving itself to death. I released it into the wild rather than watch the process, felt I had at least given it every chance I could.
Still don't see anything wrong with that decision.

When I lived up north, I had a beautiful native garter snake that dropped a clutch of about 15 babies and I let them all go by my pond in the back yard. Next season I was finding juveniles under rocks and just everywhere around my house. It always brought a smile to my face to think they were the offspring of the momma that I rescued off the road (she had a smashed tail stuck and dried to the hot pavement).

She died shortly after giving birth to those babies but I reckon she lived on through them.

If I wasn't moving down here to Florida I would have probably scooped up a few of her young to begin the cycle all over again, reintroducing their babies back around my property.

Heck, if it isn't breaking the law down here in Florida, I might just breed and release some green tree frogs and green anoles. God knows I don't see many of them around anymore with invasive species such as Cuban tree frogs and brown anoles.

Lets see who has beef with that. I may not have the power to ban anyone that does, but I do have the power to make them wish that they never joined here.

 

[xanaxez]

Actually, I do believe you are right. That cut and paste appears to be directly from the California Natural Resources Agency DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME NATIVE REPTILE CAPTIVE PROPAGATION LAWS AND REGULATIONS

I know I researched the Florida laws quite extensively and never saw anything like that.

Xanaxez, where exactly did you find that text you cut and pasted earlier? Was it from someplace OTHER than a California specific document?

Rich, after sifting back through all of the links i had clicked through the fish and wild life site, you are correct. i did not notice it was california, so it is useless and doesn't apply to florida. i did not notice one of the links redirected me to california. see, even i can make a mistake once in a while but i can also man up to it.