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Info Yaz Mansour and the dead Boa

I'd be very careful on how you handle things from here Yaz.

You are questioning every angle that David brings up - and while some of it is reasonable, some of it frankly is not. For example, questioning whether or not it was the same animal was unnecessary - it was obvious from the pics that David posted that it was the same animal.

You are now taking the angle that maybe the animal was shipped out with pneumonia (which David has graciously gone as far to say he is confident you did not know the snake was sick) but that you think that it was massively overheated and that was the REAL cause of death. That's something you will never prove so why even go there?

Enough.

If that necropsy paperwork is forwarded to you and verifies everything he's claimed, are you going to refund him the cost of the animal and the necropsy? Or are you then going to start arguing that something he did caused this? Are you going to pick apart the pictures that you have demanded be included in the necropsy?

At a certain point, you need to step back a define your terms. If you shipped him an animal that was sick you should give him a full refund, as every cost he has incurred from that point is attributable to a fault on your end - not his. Since you've demanded a full blown necropsy complete with pictures, you should also refund him his initial vet visits and the cost of the necropsy.

I will say this - I have done business with a lot of "Good Guys" as defined by the BOI and one thing they have in common is the integrity and maturity in which they handle themselves AND the transaction if things by chance go awry.
 
Good morning all. Well, it looks like some of the comments have gone if the direction I feared they would when you take something like this public. Yaz, enough with the "David didnt call me exactly when he received it." I always open up the animals and get them taken care of before I jump on the phone. Why would I call you when I havent even opened the box. I am sorry that the UPS man took the easy route and wrote "garage". That is where I met him so we wouldnt have to carry a 40 lb box that far and I didnt want the box tossed around any more than it had to. I have done this many a times with plenty of high end dragons. My reputation speaks for itself.

Yes, I didnt call you until Th. right around 48 hours after receiving the boa. The symptoms didnt start getting extremely concerning until then. Hindsight is 20/20.

For all you that are asking "what's the rush, why dont you wait until the report comes back?" I say, whats the difference? What would be happening right now had I not gone immediately to the diagnostic lab?? I can only imagine. I am the one that decided to get the necropsy done. I WILL provide that report once I receive it but why should I have to wait and go through more drama as the seller digs and brainstorms for any loophole he can conjure up? If something silly comes back on the report contrary to what I was told by the DVM's on Friday, I will quickly be a man and refund the money paid back to me. I am not even asking for the full amount. I think I am being very understanding of the confusion and frustration that Yaz must be feeling on his end. Its tough on everyone. He and I talked this thing through plenty of time since Friday. Twice he agreed with me and told me he would pay me back and that it all made sense once he was able to talk it through with me. Only to have him change his mind within a couple of hours and not pay me back. Part of this is the natural process of him trying to understand all of this and to make sure that nothing was done on this end to cause the death. I dont blame him for that part. But, now you have to listen to the third party, independent vets that do this sort of thing all of the time. They are the trained professionals in all of this. None of us are.

I think it is sad how the level of trust has gone down between good people in this country. The days when you could look someone in the eyes as you shook hands are gone for the most part. Now, most just sit behind a keyboard and flex their muscles.
 
Considering Thursday he found some mucus from the boa maybe he cranked the heat up too much and the boa died from overheating and/or suffocating considering the boa was in an Animal Plastics cage (David told me), and there isnt much ventilation in those cages. Too much heat + not enough ventilation = overheating and suffocation.
 
David, Im truly sorry this whole thing happened. I am listening to all third parties but the time frame is not right.

I didnt hear from you about anything for more than 48 hours after arrival like you mentioned, he arrived Tues 9:15am, 48 hours would have been Thursday morning, I didnt hear anything until 4pm. It was 2 1/2 days I didnt hear anything about one problem from that snake.
 
Then from hearing from you at 4pm on Thursday about mucus, then all of a sudden I get a call from you Friday morning that he's completely dead? The pics of him dead dont look right considering you saw him Thursday afternoon and then Friday morning he looks like he was completely dried out. Something happened very wrong in that time.
 
Post copies of the receipts. Let me see all of that. Dean asked for it earlier as well. Let us all see that.
 
The boa had small eyes to begin with. They're still there, just covered in urates from his death rolls as is the rest of him and the cage bottom.

Good luck David. Honor isn't what it used to be.
 
Yaz, the only thing I was given on Friday from Rollins was a business card for the vet assigned the case. I will not post personal information on that individual. On that back of the card, they apply a barcode sticker that has all the pertinent information for tracking purposes. The case # is R10-013731 NJH. They will be opened tomorrow and if you would like to set up a conference call to discuss this situation with the vet., I would be happy to try and set that up. I may be able to get more paperwork then too, I dont know.

I will say you are now reaching deep questioning my husbandry techniques. I have been keeping boas and other reptiles since 1988. I saw the boa Friday morning around 8:30 before I headed out to work. I had told you that. Enough about the dehydration too. Ridiculous. This is what a snake looks like after it dies and it hasnt been dead for more than 3 1/2 hours or so. Without the urates, it may not have looked so bad but it was still a sad sight to come home to.

Again, what would you be doing right now had I not made the personal decision to get a necropsy done? You clearly stated that you wouldnt want to see me have to put more money into the situation. I am out $455. I want $250 back.

Maybe then we can grab a beer together in Daytona this summer? I will pay! :)
 
Honor? I SENT a perfect HEALTHY animal. He RECEIVED a perfect HEALTHY animal. I didnt hear from him for 2 1/2 days. Then all of a sudden the snake is sick and then died the following day?

I know the quality of my animals, I am not questioning myself, he was healthy, arrived healthy, was perfectly fine for 2 1/2 days and then just got sick and died. You can see the pics of the ad and tell he was a perfectly healthy animal and he arrived that way. I dont need to prove anything, he is the one that needs to prove to ME that the snake didnt die because of him. Why am I going to issue ANY refund if there is no proof of anything on how that snake died? All I know is the snake was healthy, arrived healthy (and he stated that himself, and was saying how perfect the boa was) and then didnt hear from him for days. The all of a sudden 3 days later got sick and died the next day. Thats not a question for me, thats a question for him.
 
Wanted to add, how do you only have a business card and a case #? Wheres the receipt that this was even perfomed? When someone gets a necropsy done there is paperwork involved as well as correct precedures that should have been followed prior to having it done. When an animal is simply taken to the vet you get a receipt stub for the payment as well as a document stating the animals info and the procedure/examination performed. Thats very strange if you didnt get anything besides a business card and a case number. If thats all you got, then that place IS NOT run correctly at all.

The animal is now disposed of from what you told me, so honestly there arent any more pictures you can send me, no proof that this was even done, and on top of that if you did get a necropsy done I dont even know if that may have been my boa that got the procedure done because you dont have paperwork for anything.
 
Yaz23 said:
Wanted to add, how do you only have a business card and a case #? Wheres the receipt that this was even perfomed? When someone gets a necropsy done there is paperwork involved as well as correct precedures that should have been followed prior to having it done. When an animal is simply taken to the vet you get a receipt stub for the payment as well as a document stating the animals info and the procedure/examination performed. Thats very strange if you didnt get anything besides a business card and a case number. If thats all you got, then that place IS NOT run correctly at all.

The animal is now disposed of from what you told me, so honestly there arent any more pictures you can send me, no proof that this was even done, and on top of that if you did get a necropsy done I dont even know if that may have been my boa that got the procedure done because you dont have paperwork for anything.
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I do understand where you are coming from. I, personally, think the seller is within his rights to wait for the report that states what the animal died from, to satisfy his own doubts.

Personally, I would not want anyone saying that I sold a sick animal, knowing or unknowing and most of us wouldn't have any way to prove that the animal was not sick before being shipped (unless we want to initiate a Vet check procedure to be applied before shipping.. and that can get expensive).

Whether or not the delivery man left the box near a garage or handed it over to the seller, I would have an issue with a buyer not contacting me to let me know the animal was delivered..this shows presence for the pick up and further gives the buyer a chance to check at pick up for indications of anything "unusual." Apparently, this didn't happen?

Secondly, not to cast aspirations on anyone's "honor" but, waiting for a vet report stating that the animal did indeed die of what was stated (pneumonia) is normally "procedure." Regardless of whether or not we know our animals are healthy, I think we would all want PROOF if our husbandry was called into question?

Seeing a picture of "mucus" coming from the mouth, doesn't beat a Vet/necropsy report.
 
Honor as in, you don't honor your commitments. You originally offered him compensation, then have withdrawn it and are getting crazier and crazier by the second. You yourself told him you wouldn't bother with the added expense of a necropsy, now you're harping and moaning about how it was set up/performed.

You may have thought you sent out a perfectly healthy snake, but that photo with the mucous shows otherwise. Snakes are great at hiding illness, and quite often it's not realized they're sick until they're very sick.

I thought you were a pretty cool guy and a very close friend vouched for you, but seeing now that you don't stand behind what you send out, I wouldn't buy a thing from you. Heat or whatever you can accuse him of didn't cause that RI, it takes a bit to get to where you're getting colored mucous rather than foamy clear stuff. It is what it is - you shipped a sick snake whether you knew it or not.
 
Yaz,
My advice: Take the High Road and refund his money, YOU will be a better person for it.

You are nit-picking the details here, trying to justify that it was David's fault. (snakes just don't get sick in 2 1/2 days and then roll)Take the High Road, and your reputation will look great!

My two cents,

Randal Berry
 
So you are setting this up so that you don't have to accept the necropsy results. Nice move! Questioning the validity of the necropsy before it is even completed makes it easier to slip away when it is done. Brilliant!

Now onto something that has been bothering me since Wednesday when David brought this issue up in the chat room. How long does it take for a MALE to get to eight feet and 40 lbs? How old was that "perfectly healthy" snake? I had a female die this year that was fat at 30 lbs and 8 1/2 ft. I can only imagine the condition that snake was in internally that lead up to its death, morbidly obese and carrying pneumonia that was just waiting for the stress of shipping to bring about its demise. I am guessing that the poor thing has been suffering for a long time, and you finally pawned his old, crusty, fat, small eyed body off to someone else just in time!
Congratulations. Now you just have to shake this BOI thread by casting doubt on everything David says and you are home free!

Any boa experts wanna chime in on appropriate length/weight ratio that constitutes a "healthy" MALE bcc?
 
Ive had that snake for almost 2 years and have not had 1 problem with him. He RETAINED his weight very well and honestly didnt lose a single pound even after I cut him off of food when I bred him. He doesnt lose weight, hes very active and was taken out every other day. Dont accuse me of treating my animals bad and making him obese.

Honestly, I will not refund a penny until I see the results from the lab. If you were the seller and know you shipped a perfectly healthy snake that you have had for 2 years, it arrives to the buyer PERFECTLY with no problems, you dont hear anything from the buyer for 2 1/2 days, then all of a sudden the boa is sick and dies, wouldnt you want some proof that the snake didnt die because of the buyer?

I WOULD, so once I see the results and documents, I will go from there.

Shadera, I find it funny that you said that. I DO STAND BEHIND ALL MY ANIMALS. I have tons of past deals that went perfect. Actually this is THE FIRST DEAL that has ever happened like this. I HOWEVER, will not refund a penny right now considering that boa was healthy, arrived healthy, and was healthy for 2 1/2 days in the custody of David. Then out of no where the boa got sick and died. That is NOT something I will throw a refund out for without seeing proof of the cause. If the animal arrived dead that is a different story, a full refund will be given (I gurantee live arrival). Or if the animal arrived and something happened during shipping that will be refunded in full. This on the other hand isnt something that will be refunded without proof. This story doesnt make sense and until I'm proven that the boa died from previous problems, a refund will not be issued. If you dont want to do business with me because I sent out a percfectly healthy animal and it arrived healthy and no problems and didnt hear anything for 2 1/2 days and then the boa got sick and died and I dont have any proof that this was PRIOR to me shipping and your telling me I dont stand by my animals, when ALL IM ASKING FOR IS DAMN PROOF THAT THIS HAPPENED BEFORE I SHIPPED HIM THEN A REFUND WILL BE GIVEN, then I dont want your business anyway. I want proof that is why he died, not words from a stranger. As much as I want to believe everyone, no one can be trusted these days. I could buy an animal, accidentaly do something wrong, the snake die and then claim that it wasnt my fault and the seller needs to refund me the money.

Everyone who bought snakes from me, knows the quality of my animals and I STILL keep in contact with them to see how the animals are doing. This ONE WEIRD situation happens and everyone is accusing me of not standing behind my animals? I stand behind my animals probably more than a lot of people selling things. Not only that, I LOVE them to death and this happens and now people call me not honorable?
 
Wanted to answer your question, he was almost 10 years old. Actually he may have been 10 years old, I know he is 9 years old but wasnt exactly sure on his birthdate. I could actually get that for you if its that important.
 
By the way, his exact weight I believe was 37 pounds. The box, container, with him inside it weighed 42.5 pounds I believe.
 
I'm not a boa keeper.. but..

I've unfortunately had a experiance where my thermostat malfunctioned and lost snakes due to the overheating. NOT one snake had "sunken dried" eyes. All the snakes that were dead(that I found dead) were already bloating from the heat. That picture of the dead boa does not (In my opinion based on seeing snakes that DID die from overheating) look anything like the pythons that died here. I think the eyes are just small and have the whitish urates on them, since the rest of the body has whitish urate-like particles on it.

If the snake was ill before it was shipped(and obviously not showing any signs) then the seller should refund the money. Because two vets said the snake died from pneumonia, he shoudl accept that as pneumonia and accept that the snake was ill when it left his house, but wasn't showing any signs yet, because snakes are sneaky when they are ill. The mucus pics show that the snake was advanced in the infection, not just drooling a little from a new infection.

Since the seller did NOT advise for a necropsy, I don't think he should require it. He advised against a necropsy, and should the buyer have followed his advice, he would be refunding the money based on the two vets reporting the snake died from pneumonia.

Since the buyer has taken upon himself to GET a necropsy, I think the buyer should be willing to wait for HIS proof to come in so he can show his proof and receive the refund. He chose to get a necropsy, so he should wait until the results come back, otherwise what was any point to getting a necropsy done?

In short:
The snake was ill from the beginning, as evidenced by the pics of the mucus.
It is the same snake from the pictures.
The seller stated TWICE that he would issue a refund/partial refund.
The snake's "sunken" eyes does not indicate overheating as cause of death.

If the seller sold a 'healthy boa' then he owes a refund, since the snake was not as advertised. If it was advertised as a male and it turned out to be female, it should have been issued a refund, so why not when it's advertised as healthy, and it obviously was not?

I have NO DOUBT that the snake APPEARED to be healthy at the seller's place. I do wonder why the seller agreed to a refund twice but then backed out?

If the buyer had called immediately and said "Looks great" what difference would it make FACT-WISE from talking an hour later?

All of this posting is just my opinion. I don't think either seller or buyer are bad guys from the deal.. but neither is behaving very professionally during this frustrating time. Perhaps a few moments to step back and look at your facts would help?
 
Forgot.. as the seller, I would require a written report from the vets saying the animal died from pneumonia. I've had a lot of folks come to me and say "the vet said you caused xx", but when I contacted the vet, it turns out nothing of the sort was said, in fact the vet said the cause was something else entirely. Sometimes it's outright deceit, sometimes it's honest misunderstanding what the vet told them, sometimes it's outright not listening at all because they made their minds up it was my fault. And at least a few times, it turned out they never went to the vet at all. So NOW, I require a WRITTEN vet report, and it does not seem unreasonable to me for the buyer to provide that to the seller.
 
The problem here is that you THOUGHT you sent him a perfectly healthy snake. Shipping can and DOES kick start many health issues that are just laying there below the surface WAITING.. I would also assume that if the snake had that much mucus build up, it's head could have been swollen up as well, making the eyes appear skunked in.

I know neither one of you, but Yaz, you have done nothing but point the finger at everyone but yourself and are questioning experts as well (vets).

For all your demanding of pics, reports, and notes from the vets I'd say the buyer now has every right to FULL REFUND including the NECROPSY, since it is plainly obvious that without the necropsy he would NOT have recieved a dime.
 
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