Inbreeding

Denisebme · Jun 25, 2007

KelliH said:
Absolutely correct, which is why it is rare to see an albino reptile in the wild. They are normally picked off by other animals higher on the food chain. In captivity our animals receive the best of care, they do not have to deal with things like that. If no inbreeding was ever done, think of all the beautiful morphs that would never have been reproduced in captivity? No albino corns, no axanthic ball pythons, no blizzard leopard geckos... and the list goes on. I feel that as long as breeders are responsible and take care to outcross on a regular basis, there is no problem. To state, as one poster did, that inbreeding reptiles is animal cruelty is just ridiculous.

I'm not sure its a ridiculous claim, just maybe a bit unaware and uninformed.
I happen to love a lot of color morphs, and I understand that as long as long as the people doing the breeding are acting responsibly and are focused not only on producing the desired color traits, but also in producing healthy, vibrant animals, everyone is happy.
Our animals aren't ever going to live in the wild, and there is nothing about their genetics of the vast majority of morphs that effects their lives in captivity.
We all have to decide for ourselves where that line is that we don't cross. "First do no harm" works for me. That means no eyeless turtles or scaleless reptiles.

Valley Dragons · Jun 25, 2007

Valley Dragons said:
I have a dragon from Dachiu - so if Dachiu dragons are infected with adeno, then I can rest assured that all of my dragons are infected - because I sure as heck don't do what is neccesary to completely sterilize the dragon's environment to get rid of a virus like adeno. After the 90-day quarantine, I introduced this dragon into my colony. She has had contact with/been near/cross-contaminated every single one of my dragons, including my hatchlings. Granted, being that this is the beginning of the season for me, I have had 70 babies hatch so far this year, out of two different females and two different males. Each and every one of them is thriving. I had 4 eggs that have not hatched yet for some reason - but they appear to be fine, just slower to hatch. The dragon that I got from Dachiu is one of the best I have ever had - she is fast-growing (she has put on weight faster than my other babies), she is healthy and vigorous, and she has an excellent temperament. What more could I ask for? She is now almost 9 months old, and I have had ZERO problems with her.

I guess my point is this. If adeno is so easy to spread - and if Dachiu dragons are infected with adeno - then shouldn't [/I]my Dachiu dragon be infected with adeno? In which case my whole colony should be infected with adeno? And shouldn't I see some sort of health consequences because of this?
And I am truly not seeing anything wrong!

Jamie

I don't know...maybe my husbandry it too good. Perhaps I should slack off a bit so that we can see the full effects of the adeno...

Jamie

Valley Dragons · Jun 25, 2007

Ugh- my italics are going all screwy...sorry 'bout that!

whiskersmom · Jun 25, 2007

Valley Dragons said:
I have a dragon from Dachiu - so if Dachiu dragons are infected with adeno, then I can rest assured that all of my dragons are infected - because I sure as heck don't do what is neccesary to completely sterilize the dragon's environment to get rid of a virus like adeno. After the 90-day quarantine, I introduced this dragon into my colony. She has had contact with/been near/cross-contaminated every single one of my dragons, including my hatchlings. Granted, being that this is the beginning of the season for me, I have had 70 babies hatch so far this year, out of two different females and two different males. Each and every one of them is thriving. I had 4 eggs that have not hatched yet for some reason - but they appear to be fine, just slower to hatch. The dragon that I got from Dachiu is one of the best I have ever had - she is fast-growing (she has put on weight faster than my other babies), she is healthy and vigorous, and she has an excellent temperament. What more could I ask for? She is now almost 9 months old, and I have had ZERO problems with her.

I guess my point is this. If adeno is so easy to spread - and if Dachiu dragons are infected with adeno - then shouldn't [/I]my Dachiu dragon be infected with adeno? In which case my whole colony should be infected with adeno? And shouldn't I see some sort of health consequences because of this?
And I am truly not seeing anything wrong!

Jamie

This is getting so very exhausting.....I thought they all had it??? Isn't that what's been coming from the Dachiu choir? Isn't that the reason you're not testing? Because why test when you know they all have it?
Or am I wrong? Do you believe Adeno isn't in all beardies therefore testing should be done?
You can't have it both ways.

How will you face this forum (esp. Wendy and Tere) if, God forbid, all of a sudden your colony is wiped out? You sit there all smug and secure in knowing that it can't happen to you...that it must have been their husbandry because you haven't seen some "sort of health consequences" yet. The important word here being; YET.

Tere Salazar · Jun 25, 2007

Valley Dragons said:
I have a dragon from Dachiu - so if Dachiu dragons are infected with adeno, then I can rest assured that all of my dragons are infected - because I sure as heck don't do what is neccesary to completely sterilize the dragon's environment to get rid of a virus like adeno. After the 90-day quarantine, I introduced this dragon into my colony. She has had contact with/been near/cross-contaminated every single one of my dragons, including my hatchlings. Granted, being that this is the beginning of the season for me, I have had 70 babies hatch so far this year, out of two different females and two different males. Each and every one of them is thriving. I had 4 eggs that have not hatched yet for some reason - but they appear to be fine, just slower to hatch. The dragon that I got from Dachiu is one of the best I have ever had - she is fast-growing (she has put on weight faster than my other babies), she is healthy and vigorous, and she has an excellent temperament. What more could I ask for? She is now almost 9 months old, and I have had ZERO problems with her.

I guess my point is this. If adeno is so easy to spread - and if Dachiu dragons are infected with adeno - then shouldn't [/I]my Dachiu dragon be infected with adeno? In which case my whole colony should be infected with adeno? And shouldn't I see some sort of health consequences because of this?
And I am truly not seeing anything wrong!

Jamie

Jamie,

I know I probably don't have to say this, but I didn't either. Some of my Dachiu's are big, healthy and beautiful. They are also Adeno positive. I've said all this before. I had no issues at all our first breeding season, had no clue there was anything wrong. In fact, second season, we hatched out 4 different pairings...the last of the those four pairings was the babies that had Adeno, that so many were lost, or failed to thrive.

By that same token, I just lost an amazingly huge and perfectly sweet, beautiful, angelic dragon named Fiera. (Can't tell how bad I miss her, huh?) She was a Dachiu. She started out this year over 750 grams. She then (as per typical Adenovirus style) started laying infertile clutches...5 of them, to be exact. That last one quite literally kicked her butt, and I got the joy of watching my big girl wither away and die. So, no...I didn't need some necropsy to tell me what she died from. Had she not had Adenovirus, she probably wouldn't have laid 5 infertile clutches. Draw your conclusions from there.

Just for those of you wondering, Teenie and Itty are now 14" long. Fireball is 8" long. They were all born October 31st, 2006, and are siblings.

Anyway, just because you're not having issues now doesn't mean it's not there...or that you won't have issues in the future. I really do hate to say that because it makes me sick to think of anyone else going through this, but that's, unfortunately, how this virus works. There is definitely no rhyme or reason to it.

puppytoes72 · Jun 25, 2007

Valley Dragons said:
I don't know...maybe my husbandry it too good. Perhaps I should slack off a bit so that we can see the full effects of the adeno...

Jamie

are you implying that we have slacked off? :NoNo:

walker75 · Jun 25, 2007

I don't know...maybe my husbandry it too good. Perhaps I should slack off a bit so that we can see the full effects of the adeno...

Your a smart butt person and an intiagator to say the least..

I really hope you are lucky enough and do not have it... for if it SHOULD happen to you .... you will then get the full picture and it is not a pretty one

It is in certain lines and colors but then I do not believe you have read enough to know which ones that may be

Crazydude · Jun 25, 2007

Or maybe possibly its a different strain if there is separate strains. But If I remember correctly adeno is passed oral, fecal, blood or through generations. So just meeting them shouldn't give them adeno. Again it compares to HIV/Aids. You cant get it from meeting someone and cant always tell who has it.

Dragons that have been inbreed somewhere along the line seem to have more problems. And are more susceptible to certain things.

Can you tell me why my dragon had such a high parasite count even though it was medicated correctly it kept rising until we did a extremely rigid treatment that probably caused more problems then it solved but my dragon is now fine. My husbandry IMO is good and was good.

I think it had to due with weakend immune system due to either adeno or inbreeding or both

whiskersmom · Jun 25, 2007

Valley Dragons wrote:

I don't know...maybe my husbandry it too good. Perhaps I should slack off a bit so that we can see the full effects of the adeno...

Wow....and to think Dennis Hultman didn't like my posts?????? Whatcha' think about this Dennis?

And I'm the nutjob?

walker75 · Jun 25, 2007

Crazydude said:
Or maybe possibly its a different strain if there is separate strains. But If I remember correctly adeno is passed oral, fecal, blood or through generations. So just meeting them shouldn't give them adeno. Again it compares to HIV/Aids. You cant get it from meeting someone and cant always tell who has it.

Dragons that have been inbreed somewhere along the line seem to have more problems. And are more susceptible to certain things.

Can you tell me why my dragon had such a high parasite count even though it was medicated correctly it kept rising until we did a extremely rigid treatment that probably caused more problems then it solved but my dragon is now fine. My husbandry IMO is good and was good.

I think it had to due with weakend immune system due to either adeno or inbreeding or both

Dragons with parisite issues and coccida have to have longer and different doses because of there immune system.. it has to be knocked out so to speak and it takes more meds and longer time to do that. At least that is how it happened to me. The virus plays a part in everything involved in the life of the dragon with adenovirus

walker75 · Jun 25, 2007

Just for those of you wondering, Teenie and Itty are now 14" long. Fireball is 8" long. They were all born October 31st, 2006, and are siblings.

Tere
That is great news and I am glad Fireball is growing and Teenie and Itty also

Thanks for the update

puppytoes72 · Jun 25, 2007

walker75 said:
I don't know...maybe my husbandry it too good. Perhaps I should slack off a bit so that we can see the full effects of the adeno...

Your a smart butt person and an intiagator to say the least..

I really hope you are lucky enough and do not have it... for if it SHOULD happen to you .... you will then get the full picture and it is not a pretty one

It is in certain lines and colors but then I do not believe you have read enough to know which ones that may be

karen,i will say it for you. jamie, you are a smartazz,bltch,c***,piece of crap that doesnt even deserve to be on the bottom of my shoe.you are lower than low and if i get points for saying this then so be it. but you definately are those things and many ppl want to say it right now

Crazydude · Jun 25, 2007

I know walker. I was more of asking jamie to tell me if it doesnt have to do with a weakend immume system. I went through 3 grueling months of meds and force feeding along with daily sterilization and increased temps. I had 5 fecals done and used sulfa...... (cant remember the rest) for coccidia which didnt work, Albon twice which didnt work and 2 different kinds of panacur to finally get rid of hookworms and lower the coccidia count. The vet beleives that either Adeno or Inbreeding in her genes weakend her immune system to alow the levels to get that high and her body not to fight it off correctly. She basically has no immune system and for this reason I get a fecal done every 1-2 months to catch anything early. All this from probably 1 bad cricket. But I plan on testing her. Hopefully I can do it through my vet because id be lost doing the fixative.

Valley Dragons · Jun 25, 2007

Saladragon said:
Jamie,

I know I probably don't have to say this, but I didn't either. Some of my Dachiu's are big, healthy and beautiful. They are also Adeno positive. I've said all this before. I had no issues at all our first breeding season, had no clue there was anything wrong. In fact, second season, we hatched out 4 different pairings...the last of the those four pairings was the babies that had Adeno, that so many were lost, or failed to thrive.

By that same token, I just lost an amazingly huge and perfectly sweet, beautiful, angelic dragon named Fiera. (Can't tell how bad I miss her, huh?) She was a Dachiu. She started out this year over 750 grams. She then (as per typical Adenovirus style) started laying infertile clutches...5 of them, to be exact. That last one quite literally kicked her butt, and I got the joy of watching my big girl wither away and die. So, no...I didn't need some necropsy to tell me what she died from. Had she not had Adenovirus, she probably wouldn't have laid 5 infertile clutches. Draw your conclusions from there.

Just for those of you wondering, Teenie and Itty are now 14" long. Fireball is 8" long. They were all born October 31st, 2006, and are siblings.

Anyway, just because you're not having issues now doesn't mean it's not there...or that you won't have issues in the future. I really do hate to say that because it makes me sick to think of anyone else going through this, but that's, unfortunately, how this virus works. There is definitely no rhyme or reason to it.

Concerning "adeno" symptoms showing up in later clutches...Is it not possible that these last clutches have just depleted the female? Or that there were some other complications? Was the male proven? (Sorry, I have to ask...). Was she checked for other reproductive problems? How do you know it was adeno that killed her if a necrospy was not performed? I'm not trying to be mean, I am just asking...

Jamie

Tere Salazar · Jun 25, 2007

walker75 said:
Just for those of you wondering, Teenie and Itty are now 14" long. Fireball is 8" long. They were all born October 31st, 2006, and are siblings.

Tere
That is great news and I am glad Fireball is growing and Teenie and Itty also

Thanks for the update

You're so welcome. I've been spending so much time on here (I know...huge shocker) that I really haven't had time--or the heart to update the website. I keep hoping if I don't put RIP Fiera, maybe she won't really be gone. I know. Now, I'm the nutjob.

There you go, guys...more ammunition.

Valley Dragons · Jun 25, 2007

puppytoes72 said:
karen,i will say it for you. jamie, you are a smartazz,bltch,c***,piece of crap that doesnt even deserve to be on the bottom of my shoe.you are lower than low and if i get points for saying this then so be it. but you definately are those things and many ppl want to say it right now

I love you too, puppytoes. Tee-hee.

Jamie

Tere Salazar · Jun 25, 2007

Crazydude said:
I know walker. I was more of asking jamie to tell me if it doesnt have to do with a weakend immume system. I went through 3 grueling months of meds and force feeding along with daily sterilization and increased temps. I had 5 fecals done and used sulfa...... (cant remember the rest) for coccidia which didnt work, Albon twice which didnt work and 2 different kinds of panacur to finally get rid of hookworms and lower the coccidia count. The vet beleives that either Adeno or Inbreeding in her genes weakend her immune system to alow the levels to get that high and her body not to fight it off correctly. She basically has no immune system and for this reason I get a fecal done every 1-2 months to catch anything early. All this from probably 1 bad cricket. But I plan on testing her. Hopefully I can do it through my vet because id be lost doing the fixative.

Ben,

I'm sorry you and your dragon had to go through all this. I've got my fingers crossed for both of you that she stays healthy.

The fixative is really easy, and Lou Ann sends very detailed instructions. If you can follow instructions, you can do it. She's also really good about answering questions to help make sure you're doing it right.

Good luck.

Tere Salazar · Jun 25, 2007

Valley Dragons said:
Concerning "adeno" symptoms showing up in later clutches...Is it not possible that these last clutches have just depleted the female? Or that there were some other complications? Was the male proven? (Sorry, I have to ask...). Was she checked for other reproductive problems? How do you know it was adeno that killed her if a necrospy was not performed? I'm not trying to be mean, I am just asking...

Jamie

And I am happy to answer. Now, I'm not sure if you're asking about the babies, or Fiera, so I'm going to answer both. My post probably wasn't too clear, so I'm sure it's my fault.

If you're asking if the last clutches depleted the mother of the babies (Annie for easier distinction), she only had two clutches, so there shouldn't have been much depletion. She recovered fairly quickly after both the first and second clutches, and is now a rotund little woman. She was not tested for any reproductive issues, because it didn't appear she had any. Her boyfriend, Aristeaus, the father of the babies, was not proven until her.

Now, as for Fiera having reproductive issues, no, I did not have her tested for anything. She had several cluthes the year prior and did just fine, recovered fairly quickly and seemed pretty normal. She did have one infertile clutch (I would have to look at my records to be positive) I think the year before she was bred. From this infertile clutch, she recovered a bit slower. Okay...so fast forward back to this year...there was no male, the clutches were infertile.

I say I don't need a necropsy because she tested Adeno positive, and did what is a known Adeno symptom...laid numerous infertile clutches without being able to properly recover in between.

If it helps you feel any more comfortable with that, Wendy at Neverland has also reported the same symptoms in one of her huge females, as well.

walker75 · Jun 25, 2007

crazydude

send the test in yourself it is easy.. Hb had almost 3 weeks of albon to rid his system of coccida and yes 1 cricket can do it. I feed a mixed variety now
supers roaches and hornworms....along with varied greems collard turnip mustard and dandelion no more crickets.. :rofl:

Tere Salazar · Jun 25, 2007

Man...I'm sorry, y'all. I just re-read that and it's really confusing. Jamie, if you still have questions, feel free to ask. Hopefully, you can get something from it.

Inbreeding

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