Inbreeding

[puppytoes72]

I love you too, puppytoes. Tee-hee.

Jamie

just keep breeding without testing and i hope you dont have to experience the hell that we have.we are dealing with the results of irresponsible breeders like you.just lay off tere,that is so low what you said to her

 

[Valley Dragons]

And I am happy to answer. Now, I'm not sure if you're asking about the babies, or Fiera, so I'm going to answer both. My post probably wasn't too clear, so I'm sure it's my fault.

If you're asking if the last clutches depleted the mother of the babies (Annie for easier distinction), she only had two clutches, so there shouldn't have been much depletion. She recovered fairly quickly after both the first and second clutches, and is now a rotund little woman. She was not tested for any reproductive issues, because it didn't appear she had any. Her boyfriend, Aristeaus, the father of the babies, was not proven until her.

Now, as for Fiera having reproductive issues, no, I did not have her tested for anything. She had several cluthes the year prior and did just fine, recovered fairly quickly and seemed pretty normal. She did have one infertile clutch (I would have to look at my records to be positive) I think the year before she was bred. From this infertile clutch, she recovered a bit slower. Okay...so fast forward back to this year...there was no male, the clutches were infertile.

I say I don't need a necropsy because she tested Adeno positive, and did what is a known Adeno symptom...laid numerous infertile clutches without being able to properly recover in between.

If it helps you feel any more comfortable with that, Wendy at Neverland has also reported the same symptoms in one of her huge females, as well.

Thank you for the civil answer. So she was NOT bred the second year and still had 5 clutches? How big were the clutches?

 

[Ken Harbart]

karen,i will say it for you. jamie, you are a smartazz,bltch,c***,piece of crap that doesnt even deserve to be on the bottom of my shoe.you are lower than low and if i get points for saying this then so be it. but you definately are those things and many ppl want to say it right now

How hard is it for you to comprehend rules? If you lack the integrity to follow them, then why do everyone a favor and get lost, Michele.

Of course, I know this is going to trigger another bout of intellectual dishonesty from you about how unfair it is that you are held to the exact same standard of conduct as everyone else here, and that there's favoritism at play because no one who's not using profanity is getting warned... and so on and so forth.

 

[mikey]

karen,i will say it for you. jamie, you are a smartazz,bltch,c***,piece of crap that doesnt even deserve to be on the bottom of my shoe.you are lower than low and if i get points for saying this then so be it. but you definately are those things and many ppl want to say it right now

Do you always need to cuss..You can get your points across without the dirty, foul talk. It's very tasteless...

 

[puppytoes72]

How hard is it for you to comprehend rules? If you lack the integrity to follow them, then why do everyone a favor and get lost, Michele.

Of course, I know this is going to trigger another bout of intellectual dishonesty from you about how unfair it is that you are held to the exact same standard of conduct as everyone else here, and that there's favoritism at play because no one who's not using profanity is getting warned... and so on and so forth.

actually ken im not gonna complain at all about the points..they were soooooooo worth it that time

 

[puppytoes72]

Do you always need to cuss..You can get your points across without the dirty, foul talk. It's very tasteless...

actually i didnt cuss,i just implied it.perfect description of her though.i think what jamie said was far more tasteless than cussing anyways.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Thank you for the civil answer. So she was NOT bred the second year and still had 5 clutches? How big were the clutches?

Nope. I had planned on breeding her to Adonis, then we got the Adeno results back, and all the breeding plans were no longer. She was never bred this year, and just started laying...and laying...and laying some more.

If I remember correctly (another one I'd have to check my records for), the clutches were between 20 and 25 each, nothing that a strong, healthy female shouldn't be able to handle...except for that infertile part. When I say I'd have to check my records...my sweet darling husband moved my dragon chart, and I found it once, only to forget where the heck it was.

See? We can be civil to each other! And thank you for the civil question.

 

[Crazydude]

Im going to ask where exactly she came from next time im at the reptile shop I got her from. But the dragons they sell are they dragons they hatched exept a few that come from this place. So I might ask well email the place and ask. Because I do feel that adeno or inbreeding come into play in my case.

Ill email Lou Ann when I get a chance but would it be better to try to get PCR testing done? Or is it fine either way. I remember that PCR is suposidly more accurate but im not sure.

Right now shes on supers but im looking into roaches and have been looking into worms, Just cant bring myself to pay 10 bucks for shipping 10 bucks of worms from mulberry and risk she doesnt like them, Any chance anyone knows a east coast place that carries silks/horns? But thats OT, sorry.

Just a quick question, How far back does chromosones carry Family DNA, For example with enough outbreeding can it clean out the related DNA or is there always a trace there.

Im sorry about Fiera but glad to hear Itty bitty and Teiny Tiny are growing, Ive been checkin your site every so often for updates.

And I know by the time I post this there will be 2 more pages but ohh well.

Thanks for your help both of you

 

[walker75]

Hey Crazydude your welcome and you have asked many a fine questions here and in the locked thread I thank you for that.

to bad we have no answers to them

I'll send ya a pm so this stays on topic about inbreeding

 

[Valley Dragons]

Nope. I had planned on breeding her to Adonis, then we got the Adeno results back, and all the breeding plans were no longer. She was never bred this year, and just started laying...and laying...and laying some more.

If I remember correctly (another one I'd have to check my records for), the clutches were between 20 and 25 each, nothing that a strong, healthy female shouldn't be able to handle...except for that infertile part. When I say I'd have to check my records...my sweet darling husband moved my dragon chart, and I found it once, only to forget where the heck it was.

See? We can be civil to each other! And thank you for the civil question.

Did you see any problems with her hatchlings the year before like you did with the tiny dragons? Or were these hers from the year before? (Sorry, I am not totally sure of what happened at what time). I have heard that inbreeding (which we have already determined is inevitable to some degree) will cause dwarfism and other issues to show up more often. I just wonder if that could be a factor with your tiny dragons. Have they tested positive?

Jamie

 

[Tere Salazar]

Im going to ask where exactly she came from next time im at the reptile shop I got her from. But the dragons they sell are they dragons they hatched exept a few that come from this place. So I might ask well email the place and ask. Because I do feel that adeno or inbreeding come into play in my case.

Ill email Lou Ann when I get a chance but would it be better to try to get PCR testing done? Or is it fine either way. I remember that PCR is suposidly more accurate but im not sure.

Right now shes on supers but im looking into roaches and have been looking into worms, Just cant bring myself to pay 10 bucks for shipping 10 bucks of worms from mulberry and risk she doesnt like them, Any chance anyone knows a east coast place that carries silks/horns? But thats OT, sorry.

Just a quick question, How far back does chromosones carry Family DNA, For example with enough outbreeding can it clean out the related DNA or is there always a trace there.

Im sorry about Fiera but glad to hear Itty bitty and Teiny Tiny are growing, Ive been checkin your site every so often for updates.

And I know by the time I post this there will be 2 more pages but ohh well.

Thanks for your help both of you

Personally, for the testing, I'd run a round of fecals. If she's positive, and you do the fecal collection properly, it's going to show. Once you get those results back, if you or LouAnn have any doubts, then go for the PCR. Yes, the PCR is more sensitive, but I think most times, if done properly, the fecal will catch it if it's there, and it's a lot less expensive. I'm sure if anyone else knows differently, they will say so.

I wish I had some answers to your other questions, but I don't.

Thanks for your well wishes. I will get around to the website someday. It's still just a tad difficult right now.

 

[Crazydude]

I looked back on my threads and I went Off topic and sort of made it another adeno thread. I appologize for that.
I have A few other questions regarding Inbreeding.

If 1 of the parents was inbreed and the other not would the baby have a weekend immune system like the 1 parent that was inbreed or will it be 1/2 as week ext. Like when outcrossing are you outcrossing the inbreed line?

I know no one here is a field researcher or herpatologist but in the wild if inbreeding occurs dont the babies most likely die because of a weakend immune system, Also does anyone know the chances of 2 clutchmates or similar parents meeting in the wild?

Currently is there any way for breeders to obtain dragons from australia to strengthen the lines or is there a strict no exporting policy over there, I know I read its hard to import but what about exporting dragons.

And last is does anyone have any insite on what Dr. Jacobsons current studdies are in adeno, Like what tests is he running ext.

Thanks again

 

[Tere Salazar]

Did you see any problems with her hatchlings the year before like you did with the tiny dragons? Or were these hers from the year before? (Sorry, I am not totally sure of what happened at what time). I have heard that inbreeding (which we have already determined is inevitable to some degree) will cause dwarfism and other issues to show up more often. I just wonder if that could be a factor with your tiny dragons. Have they tested positive?

Jamie

Okay...that's it. I'm having some major brain function issues again. I'm sure it's that I'm not being clear, and not that you can't be sure.

Are you asking if we had problems with Fiera's clutches last year, or with Annie's (the mother of the tiny babies)?

If it's Fiera's, the answer is no. I don't think I even had a slow grower from those clutches, but have since been informed that one of their (Fiera x Adonis) offspring is having some major issues. Those offspring I believe are around 14-16 months, and this little girl did just like Mama...laid a bunch of infertile clutches, starting at 9 months, I believe, and is having some strange issues. I don't really have the full story, other than she's not doing well. Her owner has not and will not test her for Adenovirus. That is the only report I've had from those offspring.

If you're talking about Annie's babies, that was her first and last breeding season, so she didn't have any before to compare to. And yes, the tiny ones have tested positive for Adenovirus.

 

[Tere Salazar]

I looked back on my threads and I went Off topic and sort of made it another adeno thread. I appologize for that.
I have A few other questions regarding Inbreeding.

If 1 of the parents was inbreed and the other not would the baby have a weekend immune system like the 1 parent that was inbreed or will it be 1/2 as week ext. Like when outcrossing are you outcrossing the inbreed line?

I know no one here is a field researcher or herpatologist but in the wild if inbreeding occurs dont the babies most likely die because of a weakend immune system, Also does anyone know the chances of 2 clutchmates or similar parents meeting in the wild?

Currently is there any way for breeders to obtain dragons from australia to strengthen the lines or is there a strict no exporting policy over there, I know I read its hard to import but what about exporting dragons.

And last is does anyone have any insite on what Dr. Jacobsons current studdies are in adeno, Like what tests is he running ext.

Thanks again

Ben,

I can only answer one of your questions with any degree of certainty. I do know that Dr. Jacobson had planned on running a study on the eggs of Adeno positive animals, to see if the Adeno was in the egg, or if the egg had been contaminated. This is one of the studies we were supposed to participate in, but I haven't heard anything else from him.

Another study we were supposed to participate in was testing on our little girl who is Adeno positive, and Calicivirus positive. I don't know what the study is exactly, but I just sent the first round of fecals about a month ago. I haven't heard anything about that either.

Aren't I such a big help today?

 

[whiskersmom]

Ben,

I can only answer one of your questions with any degree of certainty. I do know that Dr. Jacobson had planned on running a study on the eggs of Adeno positive animals, to see if the Adeno was in the egg, or if the egg had been contaminated. This is one of the studies we were supposed to participate in, but I haven't heard anything else from him.

Another study we were supposed to participate in was testing on our little girl who is Adeno positive, and Calicivirus positive. I don't know what the study is exactly, but I just sent the first round of fecals about a month ago. I haven't heard anything about that either.

Aren't I such a big help today?

Tere, I think what you've been through and what you are doing now is a HUGE help!
Thanks so much.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Tere, I think what you've been through and what you are doing now is a HUGE help!
Thanks so much.

AWWW!!! Thank you. I do try...hair-brainedness and all.

 

[KelliH]

What I have a huge problem with is to inbreed so closely to get a desirable trait that is going to be extremely hard to care for.

I think most everyone posting in this thread has a problem with that. All of us have a passion for reptiles, and none of us want our animals to be weaker, inside or outside.

 

[Valley Dragons]

Okay...that's it. I'm having some major brain function issues again. I'm sure it's that I'm not being clear, and not that you can't be sure.

Are you asking if we had problems with Fiera's clutches last year, or with Annie's (the mother of the tiny babies)?

If it's Fiera's, the answer is no. I don't think I even had a slow grower from those clutches, but have since been informed that one of their (Fiera x Adonis) offspring is having some major issues. Those offspring I believe are around 14-16 months, and this little girl did just like Mama...laid a bunch of infertile clutches, starting at 9 months, I believe, and is having some strange issues. I don't really have the full story, other than she's not doing well. Her owner has not and will not test her for Adenovirus. That is the only report I've had from those offspring.

If you're talking about Annie's babies, that was her first and last breeding season, so she didn't have any before to compare to. And yes, the tiny ones have tested positive for Adenovirus.

Sorry, I was probably not very clear in my question. I think I am going crossed-eyed from staring at the computer screen, lol. That answers my question. Thanks.

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

Ben,
Another study we were supposed to participate in was testing on our little girl who is Adeno positive, and Calicivirus positive.

What is calicivirus and its effects on dragons? This is the first I have ever heard of it.

Jamie

 

[Tere Salazar]

What is calicivirus and its effects on dragons? This is the first I have ever heard of it.

Jamie

Yeah, that makes two of us. From what I understand, it's not real common, but they have been seeing it more frequently lately, due to the increase in Adeno testing.

I haven't read that much on it, but the little I did find said that it's found more often in cats and that it causes respiratory-type issues. The little girl that has it doesn't have anything respiratory, but does have the nastiest hiney I've ever dealt with. She's had fecals upon fecals, and never shows parasites, but still has the absolute grossest poops. Like the kind that make you gag while you're cleaning them up. Aside from that, she is a good size girl, excellent eater, just really doesn't have any other issues. I'm not real sure if the poops have anything to do with Calicivirus or not, but thought I'd rather be over-thorough, than not thorough enough.

As for being cross-eyed looking at the computer screen, I'm right there with you! I really don't think it was your question though. I'm telling you...I'm having major comprehension issues today, so much so that I can't even complete a thought.