Inbreeding

[Denisebme]

I've questioned the people involved, and I get evasive answers. I find it interesting that the dragons were not really thoroughly tested for other causes of death by a trained reptile vet (at least that was what I have been told by at least one of the people involved). Adenovirus was found - but what evidence is their that adeno was the cause of death? That's like finding someone dead, doing a few random tests, finding a cold sore, and assuming that the person died of herpes simplex 1. I for one prefer to base my opinions on facts not assumptions.

Jamie

Jamie,
My mother had cancer. Then she got an infection in her feeding tube and since her immune system was ravaged by Chemo, her kidneys failed and she died. What killed her?
The infection itself would never have become systemic if not for the chemo.
Her kidneys, in which she had an undiagnosed disease, would not have failed if not for the infection.
Her death was listed as cancer related, because the cancer and its treatment are what were really the responsible co factors.
I had a conversation with someone years ago that just infuriated me. The person I was talking to said that AIDS didn't kill people. It made me spitting mad. The, a while later I was talking to a friend that has spent 20 years working with AIDS patients, and he told me that technically, AIDS doesn't kill people. What it does is open up the individual who is infected with HIV to a whole host of issues that someone who doesn't have HIV isn't prone too.
I think that most of us know now that AV isn't ALWAYS a death sentence for an animal, and that a lot of beardies who get it have not had any issues as a result. We also know that there are known complications that have arisen, like failure to thrive and liver disease, that have caused serious problems for other people.
I know what Wendy and Tere are saying isn't the popular opinion, but when you talk to them, or talk to other hobbyists who only tested their dragons because they had issues that were not easily explained away only to find out they were positive for AV and that the issues their dragons had were the same as other people who also had dragons with AV, it becomes a bit harder to deny that this disease can cause real problems, most devastating with hatchlings, but also issues that can cause problems with any Dragon.
I don't want this to turn into another thread on AV, we have enough of those already that this conversation can happen on, but its frustrating to see that people are still pointing fingers at people whose only goal is to try to raise a little bit of awareness and to help support people who find themselves with an unhealthy dragon.

 

[Denisebme]

How are you so certain that husbandry was not a factor?

I can tell you right now that you're barking up the wrong tree. I've been inside Tere's house, I've seen her set up with both babies and adults, and her husbandry is well above par.

 

[Tere Salazar]

I can tell you right now that you're barking up the wrong tree. I've been inside Tere's house, I've seen her set up with both babies and adults, and her husbandry is well above par.

Coming from you, that's got to be the best compliment I've ever had in my entire life! Thank you, Denise.

 

[Denisebme]

Jamie,

I know I probably don't have to say this, but I didn't either. Some of my Dachiu's are big, healthy and beautiful. They are also Adeno positive. I've said all this before. I had no issues at all our first breeding season, had no clue there was anything wrong. In fact, second season, we hatched out 4 different pairings...the last of the those four pairings was the babies that had Adeno, that so many were lost, or failed to thrive.

By that same token, I just lost an amazingly huge and perfectly sweet, beautiful, angelic dragon named Fiera. (Can't tell how bad I miss her, huh?) She was a Dachiu. She started out this year over 750 grams. She then (as per typical Adenovirus style) started laying infertile clutches...5 of them, to be exact. That last one quite literally kicked her butt, and I got the joy of watching my big girl wither away and die. So, no...I didn't need some necropsy to tell me what she died from. Had she not had Adenovirus, she probably wouldn't have laid 5 infertile clutches. Draw your conclusions from there.

Just for those of you wondering, Teenie and Itty are now 14" long. Fireball is 8" long. They were all born October 31st, 2006, and are siblings.

Anyway, just because you're not having issues now doesn't mean it's not there...or that you won't have issues in the future. I really do hate to say that because it makes me sick to think of anyone else going through this, but that's, unfortunately, how this virus works. There is definitely no rhyme or reason to it.

This brings up one of the great, under discussed issues with AV. We all know the risks posed to females carrying infertile eggs, and the last thing I want to see if an increase in deaths in females because they become egg bound. I've had 3 or 4 emails in the last few months asking specifically what to do because someone AV positive female was laying multiple clutches of infertiles or was obviously carrying infertile eggs and making no attempt to lay.
We're going to see this issue more and more if people keep making the decision, the right decision IMO, not to breed infected dragons.

 

[Denisebme]

Coming from you, that's got to be the best compliment I've ever had in my entire life! Thank you, Denise.

I'm not saying anything that anyone who has ever seen your setup doesn't know, and quite honestly I'm sick and tired of people trying to blame an issue that is so prevalent on one or two peoples husbandry.
I've also heard the argument that the phrase in the letter on the reptile rooms site "don't breed or sell infected babies" was only supposedly meant to be directed at one breeder. How much sense does that make? Its NOT ok for ONE breeder to breed or sell infected babies, but its OK for everyone else to do it? What sort of researcher would say something like that?
It doesn't really matter where you stand on this issue, the second you deviate from the established party line someone is going to take a whack at you. I found out the hard way and now have a BOI thread with my name on it JUST because I chose to come forward in support of testing.

 

[Tere Salazar]

This brings up one of the great, under discussed issues with AV. We all know the risks posed to females carrying infertile eggs, and the last thing I want to see if an increase in deaths in females because they become egg bound. I've had 3 or 4 emails in the last few months asking specifically what to do because someone AV positive female was laying multiple clutches of infertiles or was obviously carrying infertile eggs and making no attempt to lay.
We're going to see this issue more and more if people keep making the decision, the right decision IMO, not to breed infected dragons.

You know, I have to admit something. When I was explaining to a very good friend of mine what had happened with Fiera, she said to me, "Well, why didn't you just breed her then?" Simple question...deserves a simple answer, right?

Not quite. I so had my head set that they were Adeno positive, and therefore, would never be bred again, and that's a promise we made to everyone who would listen. We also had that nasty rumor go on about how we were breeding and incubating known positive animals. Because of those two things, I didn't breed Fiera. Would it have saved her? Or would the breeding have stressed her out even more?

I can tell you one thing. I didn't breed her, and I know all those infertile clutches just zapped every bit of strength she had, and I can't forgive myself for not breeding her...and I'm being blamed for her death.

But what if I would have bred her, and she would have gotten worse, I would never have been able to forgive myself...not to mention I would have been hung by the lynch mob if it would have ever gotten out.

So...which is the lesser of two evils?

 

[Valley Dragons]

Has anyone ever documented multiple infertile clutches being laid by adeno-negative dragons? Perhaps someone should start a data pool on issues such as this so that we know what exactly is a normal and acceptable level of "weirdness" that occurs in negative verses positive animals. Maybe as breeders, we should do our best to document any and all issues with our dragons, and do our best to track the progress of the offspring. Then we can start comparing notes and come to a conclusion. I would like to see something like this happen - a sharing of experiences and observed information about our dragons, as well as concrete test results - without all the fighting. I can commit to doing this, but it may take a me a couple months to come up with the money for testing. Becasue if we don't have testing done, then we won't know if adeno is really coming into play or not. What do you guys think about doing something like that?

Jamie

 

[Tere Salazar]

Has anyone ever documented multiple infertile clutches being laid by adeno-negative dragons? Perhaps someone should start a data pool on issues such as this so that we know what exactly is a normal and acceptable level of "weirdness" that occurs in negative verses positive animals. Maybe as breeders, we should do our best to document any and all issues with our dragons, and do our best to track the progress of the offspring. Then we can start comparing notes and come to a conclusion. I would like to see something like this happen - a sharing of experiences and observed information about our dragons, as well as concrete test results - without all the fighting. I can commit to doing this, but it may take a me a couple months to come up with the money for testing. Becasue if we don't have testing done, then we won't know if adeno is really coming into play or not. What do you guys think about doing something like that?

Jamie

Jamie-

The most infertile clutches I've had prior to Fiera was one, from two different females. Now, the fun thing here is that I have no clue whether they were Adeno positive or negative, as that was prior to our testing, and one of those females has since found a new home.

I would be all up for doing anything I can do. I've said that time and time again. I think it's a fantastic idea, and something that we really do need to be doing.

 

[Denisebme]

You know, I have to admit something. When I was explaining to a very good friend of mine what had happened with Fiera, she said to me, "Well, why didn't you just breed her then?" Simple question...deserves a simple answer, right?

Not quite. I so had my head set that they were Adeno positive, and therefore, would never be bred again, and that's a promise we made to everyone who would listen. We also had that nasty rumor go on about how we were breeding and incubating known positive animals. Because of those two things, I didn't breed Fiera. Would it have saved her? Or would the breeding have stressed her out even more?

I can tell you one thing. I didn't breed her, and I know all those infertile clutches just zapped every bit of strength she had, and I can't forgive myself for not breeding her...and I'm being blamed for her death.

But what if I would have bred her, and she would have gotten worse, I would never have been able to forgive myself...not to mention I would have been hung by the lynch mob if it would have ever gotten out.

So...which is the lesser of two evils?

Damn the consequences. When someone emails me and asks me what I would do, I tell them I would go ahead and breed them and freeze the resulting eggs. Would it have made a difference with Fiera? No one can give you an answer to that question, and you may well have had the same results either way, and no matter what gets said or how many people point fingers, there wasn't anything you could have done either way.
You've got to look at it this way. Some people are always going to point a finger at you and try to blame you for anything that goes wrong with your colony because instead of staying silent, you're speaking out and telling the truth. If they admit that AV might be the cause of what happens to you, that is pretty much the same as admitting that AV can pose serious health issues, and we just can't have that (sarcasm intended).

We can blame high clutch mortality on bad husbandry without ever seeing or knowing what we're talking about too, that is so MUCH easier than admitting that for some people, AV has had devastating consequences.
I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I know what I have seen with my own eyes. You can have to dragons from the exact same pairing and have one test negative for the virus and one test positive. Why? If I had to guess, I'd say that in the case of Daphne (negative) and Izzy (positive) maybe there was something about their immune systems from the beginning that made one more susceptible to the virus, Izzy was always small and sickly, Daphne was always big and hearty. That is just a guess though.

Ooops, had to edit, my spelling sucks today.

 

[Valley Dragons]

Well guys, I have more thoughts and ideas...but I better go make some dinner for my family and give my eyes a rest, lol.

Until later,

Jamie

 

[Denisebme]

Has anyone ever documented multiple infertile clutches being laid by adeno-negative dragons? Perhaps someone should start a data pool on issues such as this so that we know what exactly is a normal and acceptable level of "weirdness" that occurs in negative verses positive animals. Maybe as breeders, we should do our best to document any and all issues with our dragons, and do our best to track the progress of the offspring. Then we can start comparing notes and come to a conclusion. I would like to see something like this happen - a sharing of experiences and observed information about our dragons, as well as concrete test results - without all the fighting. I can commit to doing this, but it may take a me a couple months to come up with the money for testing. Becasue if we don't have testing done, then we won't know if adeno is really coming into play or not. What do you guys think about doing something like that?

Jamie

I'm all for tracking, not only test results but also clutch rates and issues. I'll even donate the space on my server if someone with the experience wants to put together a forum and I'll host it for free until the end of time and pay the domain registration costs. If I knew anything about php, I'd even set it up myself, but I don't.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Damn the consequences. When someone emails me and asks me what I would do, I tell them I would go ahead and breed them and freeze the resulting eggs. Would it have made a difference with Fiera? No one can give you an answer to that question, and you may well have had the same results either way, and no matter what gets said or how many people point fingers, there wasn't anything you could have done either way.
You've got to look at it this way. Some people are always going to point a finger at you and try to blame you for anything that goes wrong with your colony because instead of staying silent, you're speaking out and telling the truth. If they admit that AV might be the cause of what happens to you, that is pretty much the same as admitting that AV can pose serious health issues, and we just can't have that (sarcasm intended).

We can blame high clutch mortality on bad husbandry without ever seeing or knowing what we're talking about too, that is so MUCH easier than admitting that for some people, AV has had devastating consequences.
I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I know what I have seen with my own eyes. You can have to dragons from the exact same pairing and have one test negative for the virus and one test positive. Why? If I had to guess, I'd say that in the case of Daphne (negative) and Izzy (positive) maybe there was something about their immune systems from the beginning that made one more susceptible to the virus, Izzy was always small and sickly, Daphne was always big and hearty. That is just a guess though.

Ooops, had to edit, my spelling sucks today.

I had completely forgotten Daph and Izzy grew like that, too. I'd like to hear someone try to say that's due to husbandry. I would fall out of my chair laughing. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that someone will try.

You are exactly right, though. No matter what, the truth about this virus can't get out. It's so much easier to try to discredit someone that to accept this is what's really happening.

As for Fiera, I just wish I would have had the answer...any answer...anything that would have helped her. Thanks for listening today, you guys. It's been a particularly rough day...obviously.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Well guys, I have more thoughts and ideas...but I better go make some dinner for my family and give my eyes a rest, lol.

Until later,

Jamie

Have a good night, Jamie. I know at least two of us look forward to hearing more ideas...and I'm sure there are more.

 

[Denisebme]

I had completely forgotten Daph and Izzy grew like that, too. I'd like to hear someone try to say that's due to husbandry. I would fall out of my chair laughing. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that someone will try.

You are exactly right, though. No matter what, the truth about this virus can't get out. It's so much easier to try to discredit someone that to accept this is what's really happening.

As for Fiera, I just wish I would have had the answer...any answer...anything that would have helped her. Thanks for listening today, you guys. It's been a particularly rough day...obviously.

I know that they would try to blame my husbandry, and they would simply get issued an invitation to come look at my colony themselves or pound sand, their choice.
The only real major differences in my husbandry and yours that I noticed was that we use different lighting, and I have a lot of space for quarantine that allows me to house lizards separately for as long as I need to. I'm absolutely convinced that the reason why I haven't seen this virus widespread in my own colony has a lot more to do with how seriously I quarantine animals than any other single issue. Even saying that I feel like I need to knock wood because we're only 2 tests into this and we still can not say with 100% certainty that we have a clean colony.
We all have tough choices to make. Mark and I recently made the decision to downsize to 11 beardies, 7 females and 4 males. We did it because its the ONLY way we can afford to continue to test regularly.
You're allowed to have rough days. I know that both you and Wendy have had to deal with a lot, and it sure doesn't help to have to deal with finger pointing on top of it all.

 

[Tere Salazar]

I know that they would try to blame my husbandry, and they would simply get issued an invitation to come look at my colony themselves or pound sand, their choice.
The only real major differences in my husbandry and yours that I noticed was that we use different lighting, and I have a lot of space for quarantine that allows me to house lizards separately for as long as I need to. I'm absolutely convinced that the reason why I haven't seen this virus widespread in my own colony has a lot more to do with how seriously I quarantine animals than any other single issue. Even saying that I feel like I need to knock wood because we're only 2 tests into this and we still can not say with 100% certainty that we have a clean colony.
We all have tough choices to make. Mark and I recently made the decision to downsize to 11 beardies, 7 females and 4 males. We did it because its the ONLY way we can afford to continue to test regularly.
You're allowed to have rough days. I know that both you and Wendy have had to deal with a lot, and it sure doesn't help to have to deal with finger pointing on top of it all.

Well, I do have a tiny bit of quarantine space, but certainly not enough for another entire colony, as was insinuated was expected of me. I'm not sure I know of anyone else that could claim to have that.

And yes, we use Reptisun 10.0s because in our cages, the MVB's would fry our dragons. They're just way too hot. If I had different cages, I'd use MVBs.

Hmmm...think our husbandry is alike because the same LARGE breeder taught us both, and Wendy as well? But yeah...let's go ahead and blame it on our husbandry.

As for your testing, I have every bit of confidence you will test negative, once again.

 

[JimD]

Seeing as this thread has gone back to AV and not so much about inbreeding I have a question/comment.
IF there is/was major dieoff due to AV why would people not come forward and bring it to everyones attention? I know you will all say that people don't want to be attacked but if 20-30 came forward with proof who could attack?
This is being put here as a neutral question/statement. Its not directed at anyone.
I have only seen two people come forward with dieoff. I'm just wondering why?

Jim

 

[Tere Salazar]

Seeing as this thread has gone back to AV and not so much about inbreeding I have a question/comment.
IF there is/was major dieoff due to AV why would people not come forward and bring it to everyones attention? I know you will all say that people don't want to be attacked but if 20-30 came forward with proof who could attack?
This is being put here as a neutral question/statement. Its not directed at anyone.
I have only seen two people come forward with dieoff. I'm just wondering why?

Jim

This is going to come across as snippy, even though it's not meant to be.

They're not STUPID...that's why. I've even advised a few not to say a word, and I know a couple of other people have, as well.

 

[JimD]

How are you going to get people to listen and believe you if you dont bring the proof to the table then?
Ive been wondering this for a long time. If it really is how people say, where is the proof?
Do I make sence?

Jim

 

[puppytoes72]

Seeing as this thread has gone back to AV and not so much about inbreeding I have a question/comment.
IF there is/was major dieoff due to AV why would people not come forward and bring it to everyones attention? I know you will all say that people don't want to be attacked but if 20-30 came forward with proof who could attack?
This is being put here as a neutral question/statement. Its not directed at anyone.
I have only seen two people come forward with dieoff. I'm just wondering why?

Jim

you dont like when things head in a positive direction do you? wel to answer your question i think the larger breeders arent coming forward to talk about it if they are having die-offs,why would they?they would lose money thats why! sandfire,dachiu,sunshine....you dont think they are having die-offs or problems? kevin from sandfire told me on the phone if they look weak and can not handle shipping they euthanize them.you will have to ask them why they are not coming here to talk about it jim.why isnt your buddy vicki coming forward about ANYTHING?

 

[JimD]

I'm trying to keep this civil Puppytoes but I would guess because of people like you. Not the others, but you.
I'm asking questions to learn as much more as I can.
Ill see if I can give you some fuel for your fire. My wife and I breed a fair amount of dragons. We have had die off before. Nothing even close to what is brought up here though. We've had babies not do well like their clutch mates. I have dragons from all over the States. Believe that we have AV (can not get the tests done in Canada) but have had two necropsy's done with no sign of AV detected. Doesn't make sense.

Jim