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4 heat packs in a box DEAD SNAKES whos to blame

For Mikeys information, You jumped the gun... I didnt take the call cause I was very busy with 2 other calls on hold... Have yet to see your pictures, so once again you ASSUMED something... As for our guarantee we always honor it, Stateing foolish little clauses like others do is redicoulous ie: reciepient must be there, no live arrival if traveling between this temp and that..Its all ways to getting out of honoring a gurantee... And your going to tell me a person who has written insulting remarks, tried to slander me and my companies name and hurled countless accusations of how our stuff is **** yet buys more deseves to be treated accordingly with Honor?


Alfredo Veloso
 
People fail to see the faxt that there were 3 heat packs of average temp 108 (the normal one used by everyone) and a smaller one average temp 70 degrees.... we use the smaller one to help balance the box out and after 6 years of doing so have manged to come up with thsi formula.... So in essence there were 3 hot heat packs and one that was a lot cooler and if mickey checks he will see that heat pack has 2 red stripes on it


Alfredo Velsos
 
As for our guarantee we always honor it, Stateing foolish little clauses like others do is redicoulous ie: reciepient must be there, no live arrival if traveling between this temp and that..Its all ways to getting out of honoring a gurantee... And your going to tell me a person who has written insulting remarks, tried to slander me and my companies name and hurled countless accusations of how our stuff is **** yet buys more deseves to be treated accordingly with Honor?
Click to expand...

Alfredo,

Stating that the buyer has to sign for the package at first attempted delivery is not a "foolish little clause". It's the difference between day and night. There are irresponsible buyers that would leave the package sitting in the sun in the summer, or in the cold in the winter, or that the package is dropped at the front door by the carrier and it is stolen. No it's not foolish. You hand deliver a package. Particularly when it contains live animals. It protects YOU the seller, but it also protects the lives of the animals inside which is probably more important. Have you had that silly clause the animals might already be alive. Nothing against you Alfredo, I already stated Mickey was wrong because he was not there to receive the package in the first place, but you have a live arrival guarantee.

Regards.
 
Alfredo

THERE WERE 4 HEAT PACKS. I STATED THIS A FEW TIMES NOW. I did in the original call tell you 3 as that was all I had found. THERE WERE 4. The box, and heat packs are at my shop. I plan to check temps again tommorow.

Alfredo I understand your busy, so am I. I had a store full of customers, two pallets of aquariums and dry goods out in my parking lot, and your box to deal with. I took the time to give you detailed information as to what I was seeing on my end. Your responces were as follows

"We put the same amout of heat packs in every other box (44) that went out yesterday, The delay is no doubt the very reason they died... So what do you want to figure on it?"

"Like I said, its how we have been shipping that size box recently, we have to look at the low temps, and it spent the night in memphis and if you look at this map it was 39 degrees last night there,http://www.weather.com/maps/maptype/currentweatherusnational/usactuallowtemps_large.html"


If Im not mistaken theese emails were in responce to the email with the photos in it. The emails subject was re:dead emeralds

Notice the re: in front. That means you responded to the email the pictures were in. It was my assumption that the photos had been viewed. It was also my assumption from the responces that i was getting pinned with the blame here.

No where in any way have you said I would be refunded even if I delayed the box a few hours. Not on the phone, sure not in uncertain terms. Then once I went to email, rather then phone the responces started to spell out your stance. The rest of the timeline has since been laid out.

Ive been in this business long enough to know when Im being told your SOL. If thoose emails were saying that, I dont know what else is. I know Im out in the wind at this point. I may have just effectively closed my shop so to speak, but if thats the way it is so be it. Its quite obvious to me that my "demands" are too much for the importers to meet. I guess I should just accept that unless you want JUNK to be passed off as good, you better not play the game. I guess expecting your suppliers to be a "partner" in the well being of your business not the downfall of it is to much to ask also.
 
I could buy the problem with too many heat packs if there were alot of other complaints about Xtreme regarding this. Xtreme says he shipped out 44 other boxes in like conditions that day with no complaints and his explanation of how he figures out how many packs to include appear to be based on experience.

I think the temps in Omaha were around 40 or so at 10:15 when the first delivery attempt was made. 5+ hours later when the customer actually got the package the temp was at 60. I damn sure know if I had a shippment worth $1,000 of live animals due I would be there EARLY especialy if it were from Fla to Omaha in Winter. Unless people start popping up with dead animals due to overheated shipping containers from Xtreme, I would have to rest the at LEAST a large MINORITY of the blame on the buyer. As heat packs are not an exact science, I guess this is one of the inherant risks of shipping live tropical reptiles across the U.S. during Winter. Maybe the parties should kiss, make up, each admit fault too some extent and meet halfway financially.
 
"For Mikeys information, You jumped the gun... I didnt take the call cause I was very busy with 2 other calls on hold... Have yet to see your pictures, so once again you ASSUMED something... As for our guarantee we always honor it, Stateing foolish little clauses like others do is redicoulous ie: reciepient must be there, no live arrival if traveling between this temp and that..Its all ways to getting out of honoring a gurantee... And your going to tell me a person who has written insulting remarks, tried to slander me and my companies name and hurled countless accusations of how our stuff is **** yet buys more deseves to be treated accordingly with Honor?"

What honor have I been treated with by you guys to begin with. When I first reported my issues with previous packages, your responce was "send it back". Heck you allready had my money, like Im supposed to trust that I will get it back if I send it back.

Then to save all of us troubles I go down in person to purchase, and now thats getting turned around on me.

COUNTLESS ACCUSATIONS HUH thoose are the facts buddy. Sadly thoose are the facts as to what I HAVE SEEN from your company. But the other fact is I have to have a supplier from somewhere. Its not like Im going to go catch the stuff myself.

Then you turn my missing the box into the cause of death, when IT WAS NOT. I have had boxes delayed many days with no problems. A healthy animal packaged properly can survive a 3 hour delay on a 60 degree day. Anyone saying otherwise is obviously a bit mistaken. Next Im waiting to hear that Im a LIAR because I missed the 4th heat pack, and your going to say there were only 3? Is that next, or will you acknowladge the fact that it was 4?

Then its my fault I forgot to get an airway bill? I sent you one with the bearded package. Im just as busy as you Id bet. Im SURE I dont have nearly the number of orders to deal with, ect, but I also dont have employees. I have to run my life and the shop in the few hours a day I get. This morning I had a few things to take care of prior to opening the store. I couldnt sit at the shop on the hopes the package would come. At this point GOD I WISH I HAD.

Lets look at something else Alfredo, prior to finding out who it was that shipped me the box EVERONE was sure it was your fault. No ifs ands or butts. Even Chris at Top Shelf was quick to say so. Then he finds out its you, and suddently I wasnt CLEAR AS A BELL in the first post that I delayed the box a few hours.

Thats why I didnt post your name. I know the power you guys have to ruin a business (as I may have just done to mine). Hell this is in the business section not the boi allready. Imagine had it stayed there how many people would have veiwed it. Had you not responded, and let the thing take its course, it would have died with just a few responces. Thats all I wanted was a few outside opinions before I became "picky" with you about my cooked snakes.
 
We received a shipment of 6000 crickets with 4 heat packs. It was 0° here in MO at 11:00 when we received them and about that in IL where they came from the night before. Guess what? The crickets were cooked and dead. Shipper agreed that 4 heat packs was too much and sent another shipment to us.
 
While I understand that to many (and to myself) 924$ is an expensive package. But in all honesty that is a VERY SMALL order for our store.

I have had beardeds and veileds shipped to me in unisulated box on 40 degree days with NO DOAS. Did I like it, no, but it has happened. Its always better to get a little cool in shipping rather then to cook.

Im sorry but I was unable to get to the shop earlier, plain and simple. That being said I have dealt with shipping animals for nearly 10 years now, and as stated have had boxes delayed many days at times, often in the very cold weather. I have NEVER had a box arrive cooked prior to this one.

Alfredo says 3 heat packs is standard, well there were 4. That means someone didnt follow "standards" on there end. Yes in a perfect world I would have been at the shop to recieve the package, but I GUARANTEE the delay did not cause the doas. I have traveled all over this country with animals boxed. I have had stuff shipped in every extreme from every direction, and again I have never had a box cooked. I have also NEVER had a single box shipped to me with 4 heat packs NEVER ONCE before today.

Kiss and make up? I highly doubt that at this point. Should I have not posted here, I dont think so. Honestly from the tone of the emails, and previous problems with packages, I felt my chances of getting a refund were slim to none, and slim walked out the door when I posted here.

But I guess you should all read into it as you will. I hope you never have to deal with the issues I did. I can almost GUARANTEE Alfredo will not send another box of emeralds with 4 heat packs in it again. So I guess atleast something was learned.

When I ship a box I pack it so Im confident it will make atleast 2 days in the box. I ship mon-thursday, so if delayed by a day the shippers will be open. I take into consideration this may happen. As I said, had there not been 4 heat packs in the box, I would have blamed myself. But 4 heat packs spell cook NO IFFS ANDS OR BUTTS in my mind. Lets not forget theese were cb snakes, not imports. They should have handled less then 24 hours in a box no problem. In fact I got one from Alfredo from the same batch last wed around 2 pm we packed it up. We left Alfredos place around 5:30 pm eastern. I had zero heat packs in the box, and the temps in omaha were 20 degrees cooler then today. It took us untill 10:30 central (so add an hour) on thursday to get to the shop. That means that emerald was in the box for 33 1/2 hours.
 
I think if I got a large number of orders DOA or dying I would have found a new supplier, something smells fishy and it ain't the tuna.

From my shipping terms:
Dragon Charm is not responsible for mistakes made by Fedex or if buyer is not present for delivery.
Click to expand...
If you are not going to be there to receive you need to either have it held at the Fedex depot, shipped standard, or accept whatever losses entail. If I ship to someone I am not going to be responsible if they aren't there to sign and my animals spend the day bouncing around in a truck in sub-freezing temps.

Can we see pics of the box you received them in to see what type of size and insulation we are dealing with? In some cases with certain size containers and certain amounts of insulation it would be feasible to need 3-4 heatpacks in an enviroment with a low of 22* at night. And maybe it wouldn't necessarily mean that it would be needed but it certainly wouldn't cook them.

Comments like this are neither professional nor helping to prove your point or solidify your case against Alfredo:
Well Alfredo GO ____ YOURSELF
Click to expand...
 
Well I have/had informed Fed Ex of my store hours. It supposed to be in their "system" but obviously that did not help. Also if you read the thread you will note the box did not bounce around is "sub freezing temps". The extra couple hours of delay were during 60 degree temps. I could understand if the temps were cooler where this statement would come into play. Or warmer. But the temps on my end, and the couple hour delay did not cook the snakes. You want a box that the ambient temp is atleast 88 shipped, then 4 heat packs was not to much. I think most sain people would agree that 88 ambient, and as high as 112 near a pack (as the snakes easily may have been) is far to high.

Generally I do have boxes sent "next day saver" so they dont have to delivery prior to the shop opening. Or I have boxes held for customer pick up, this one just slipped the cracks. That said again I stand by the fact that a few hours delay on a 60 degree day does not kill properly packaged snakes.

How many people here have had a box delayed a few hours? Id say one in 10 boxes Ive recieved has been delayed atleast that amount of time. Not to mention the many numbers of boxes delayed days at times. If properly packadged a aninal will handle this delay fine. Hell how many times does LLL ship a animal to a show, let it sit in the package all weekend on a table, and then ship the animal back. Thoose animals spend effectively 3-4 days in transit like conditions. Being in a box for a couple extra hours under NORMAL CONDITIONS does not kill healthy animals. High temps from 4 heat packs SURE WILL.


I admitted my "mistake" of not getting the box at first delivery attempt. But to be told that HANDS DOWN that killed the snakes if BS to say the least in my opinion.

Is blaming a customer for a mistake profesional?

Is calling a customer a "cry baby" profesional?

Is calling a customer "picky" for wanting quality animals profesional?

Theese were comments on Alfredos end prior to that responce, so I stand by my statement.

I can post the pictures tommrow. The box is approx 16 x 16 x 8 if memory serves me correct.
 
"I think if I got a large number of orders DOA or dying I would have found a new supplier, something smells fishy and it ain't the tuna."

Richard I dont know how much experience you have running a pet shop, but that kind of statement doesnt seem to show much. I went to three of the "big guys" down in Flordias place just last week myself. I can assure you there isnt much difference between one or the other. Many of the risks are thoose involved with imported reptiles.

Would I love to find a supplier that sends out only stuff to my likeing HELL YES, but so far I havent come close. Ive likely purchased from just about every wholesaler in this business. In my experience they are all the same in the scence that if they get crap, well it rolls down hill if you know what I mean. However I need to supply my shop so you have to take risks.
 
Mickey,

Did you reach an agreement with Alfredo? It seems that Murphy’s Law hit both of you guys hard on that day. Alfredo doesn’t strike me as an individual that would not rectify this situation. In all honesty I’m hoping this doesn’t hurt your business too bad.

Regards.
 
Unfourtunately I doubt that anything other then what was stated here will ever come of this.

I tossed and turned all night on this, and honestly it is what it is. I started the thread to get others opinions on the situation. I figured in a few days Alfredo would have contacted me and we would have gone from there. I honestly didnt expect his responce on the thread in the manner it was given.

Had I been a childish jerk as hes trying to play this off, I would have started the thread with XTREME REPTILES ....... Instead I started it poseing the question. I tried to be as upfront about the situation as possible. In the first sentence I stated that I DELAYED THE PACKAGE.

Seriously giveing my past experience with this company and other wholesalers in general, I had a pretty good idea I was up ____ creek with out a paddle. Once I realized there were 4 heat packs in the box I was honestly PISSED that I had even made the first call where I considered the idea the delay was to blame.

Seriously how many people here have had 4 loose heat packs (not taped to lid, not wrapped in newspaper, there was however shredded newspaper packing throught the box to be fair) in a 16 x 16 x 8 box? I have never experienced this in my 10 years in this business, prior to yesterday.

O well it is what it is I guess. It sucks the snakes are dead, more then money, it truely does.

Out of curiosity I am considering doing a couple of test, just to satisfy my own curiosity. Problem is I allready spotted one flaw in my test, I dont have 60 hour heat packs (I believe thats what Alfredo said the red striped ones were). I only have 40 hours. So I may have to wait for my next superior order to perform the test.

There were 4 heat packs in the box, 2 with red stripes, 2 without. As stated the box was 16 x 16 x 8 stryo chest interior. The snakes were packed in the 6" pie delies I believe, likely 48 oz or something like that (approx 4" tall). The snakes were on paper towels. There were 3 snakes in the box.

From memory atleast two of the heat packs were in the bottom corners, and the other two were floating in the middle. Honestly I dont exactly recall that part.

I wonder what the temp in the box would be (ambient, heat pack temp, and 2" from heat pack)
2 hours after packed
4 hours after packed
8 hours after packed
12 hours after packed
16 hours after packed
20 hours after packed
22 hours after packed
24 hours after packed
26 hours after packed

I assume the box was packed at Alfredos around 4 eastern. (3 central). They were finally delivered after the delay at approx 3:30 central the next day. My local temps were at 60 degrees.

My guess is the packs hit optimum temps approx 3-4 hours after packed. By that GUESS even without the delay the snakes would have been in extreme temps 12-14 hours.

Well once I get the right heat packs I will do the test, and photos just for my own curiosity if nothing else. Im also going to put a couple eggs in the box during the test. One inside a deli like a snake would have been, one 2" from a heat pack as a snake very likely could have been, and one on a heat pack as the loose heat pack could have easily slid under the snake. I will of course lable each one prior to not confuse the one on the pack with the others.

Untill then I assume as Alfredo would like, this thread will die. I have nothing new to add on my end untill I run the test. The 3rd snake that did arrive is hanging in, but appears to be very stressed. Im not holding out a ton of hope, but will do my best. Its set up on a misting system, and we have taken further steps to fully hydrate it over the last few days.
 
Before you run your flawed test, Now that you mention there was 2 heat packs with 2 red stripes, those are 2 low heat 30 hour heat packs, and 2 40 hour heat packs... If I put 2 30 hours that means there was less heat in the box... So make sure you use it correctly.... Either way any test you run will probably prove nothing... For all we know the fed ex driver may have parked in the direct sun in a small cargo van for a 2 hour lunch...And I have never used a 60 hour heat pack in any package


AlfredoVeloso
 
Xtreme Reptiles said:
Before you run your flawed test
Click to expand...

Then why don't you perform an unflawed test?

Xtreme Reptiles said:
...And I have never used a 60 hour heat pack in any package AlfredoVeloso
Click to expand...

Yeah and you also said you never used 4 heat packs too. I've received hundreds of shipments from 5 different wholesalers where I work and NEVER has any of them used 4 heat packs. In fact all heat packsl have been taped to the lid (2) not 4 and not scattered througout the box like yours were.

Only the box of crickets that had 4 heat packs in it were cooked. BTW when we got them at around 11 a.m. the heat packs were just warm to the touch. So that tells me that the crix were cooked hours before we got them.
 
I dont know who you are Karen, but I have never sold crickets? and we have used 4 heat packs in our boxes all winter long...So I have no clue as to what you are talking about


AlfredoVeloso
 
I don't know you either, in fact I don't know anyone on this site. That has nothing to do with cooked snakes.

I never said you sold crickets. Sheesh. What I said was the ONLY box of animals we received that were DEAD had 4 HEAT PACKS in it and that was crickets. It was 0° outside when the crix were shipped from IL and 0° here when we got them at 11 a.m. Not 45° like you said or 60° like the other guy said the temp was. Either way 4 heat packs in 45° weather is too much.

If you used 4 heat packs all winter long, then there should be plenty of people coming on here stating that fact and the fact that their animals weren't cooked when they got them.
 
Ok Alfredo now your pissing me off.

First you blame me for something that we both know was YOUR FAULT.

Then your going to run your mouth like that about the test being flawed. Obviously it doesnt matter at this point what the test proves, you WILL NOT STAND BEHIND YOUR TERMS. YOUR COMPANY DOES NOT STAND BEHIND ITS TERMS.

Lets see Alfredo, I was sitting at your facility from what approx 2 untill 5:30 pm the day I was down there hand picking. During that time you had 3 crates from Madagasgar sitting outside getting unpacked. At the time I left you still have over 40 chameleons IN BAGS, IN CRATES, with the lids off. This was in FLORIDA on a 70 plus degree day. Hell the mantellas were sitting outside for atleast 3-4 hours.

So its save for your boxes to take hours to be opened, out in the sun in florida, but my box gets delayed a few hours on a 60 degree day and your going to blame me. YOU GUYS COOKED THE SNAKE PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Obviously there is no need to do the test, even if the results came in to favor me your going to say Im a crybaby thats full of ____. Your obviously not going to cover the animals AS YOUR TERMS STATE YOU WOULD. The third snakes half dead, and the 4th that I drove back still hasnt eaten.

You know I have to wonder at this point (based on my experience with your POOR QUALITY OF ANIMALS) if the snakes werent allready dead before shipping. Why else would someone with any experience shipping snakes send a box with 4 heat packs to a destination with 60 degree temps. It doesnt add up.

Your a CROOK plain and simple Alfredo. Id much rather be a "crybaby" who is picky about animals then a THEIF AND A CROOK.
 
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