4 heat packs in a box DEAD SNAKES whos to blame

[DragonCharm]

we have used 4 heat packs in our boxes all winter long...So I have no clue as to what you are talking about

Alfredo, curious as to how many orders you have processed this winter? Hundreds right? If 2 low heat and 2 reg heat packs have worked for all of those shipments could this not just be bad luck, not shipper error here? Maybe 4 heatpacks isn't a death sentance, maybe it would depend on the types of heat packs used?

This is what I think should happen, one party needs to just call it a loss and walk away. Either Alfredo credits him or Mickey calls it a loss and walks away, whichever just end it. In the grand scheme of things this is small potatoes.

 

[Ophis]

Actually I don't think Xtreme said that they never used 4 heat packs. They posted that they have been shipping with 3-40hr and 1-30hr pack all winter long (Which is actually more heat pack strength than were in TLKs package. He said his package had 2-40s and 2-30s).

I think the opposite would be true in relation to Xtreme customers posting if their snakes were not cooked upon arrival. What you would have, if there were a problem, would be alot of people posting about their cooked snakes from Xtreme. Lack of such postings tends to support Xtremes position.

We will never know what the temps were in that package throughout its journey, but I am guessing that the most drastic rise in temp and the highest temp achieved, was between 10:15 (when the outside temp was in the low 40s) and 3:30 (when the outside temp was in the low 60s)

I too thought it was probably the shippers fault at first, but after hearing Xtremes(And I don't know them from adam.) position and the fact that TLK missed a chance to recieve this package 5 hrs and 15mins before he did (not "A couple of hours" as others have stated) becoming more evident and that the outside temp rose 20 degrees during that time (who knows how much they rose inside the shipping vehicle!) I can no longer make that assumption.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Actually he stated originally that they had been shipping with 2 40 hour and 1 30 hour. So yes there was more heat in my box then others boxes.

As we can all see, all were going to do is beat a dead horse on this one.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

You know whats funniest to me about all this. I personally have never had before this package, 4 heat packs in on box EVER in 10 years.

Here is a good test

HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE SHIP BOXES THAT ARE 16 x 16 x 8 with 4 heat packs?

Honestly how many times have any of you had a box with 4 packs in it?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Tos

Someone told me once that should've, could've, would've, etc. do not exist in the real world.

Having said this, Mickey should've been there, he acknowledged that already. On his defense: he never got a tracking # (so he was not certain the package was arriving, and he had some other urgent things to take care of.

There's only one thing we have in writing Live arrival guaranteed". After all this I'm not really sure why that sentence is there.

Alfredo,

If you feel requiring a signature is silly (which protects both the animals and yourself) you might consider removing the previous one from your page, as it has demonstrated meaningless.

Regards.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Well there are the pics. That was a half hour after I opened the box. The temp in my store was approx 72 degrees. The box had been opened up for a while, so the temps were likely that high the majority of the trip IN MY OPINION.

Tell you what Alfredo, Im willing to stake my reputation that the delay did not at the very least soley cause the problems. I guess your willing to stake your on the fact that 4 heat packs CAUSED NONE OF THE PROBLEMS. I like my stance far better then yours.

 

[Ophis]

Funny we shipped out 44 Large boxes yesterday with 3 -40 hour heat packs and 1 -30 hour heat pack all over the US with no Incident? Maybe he may want to add a little more info? Like the night time low in his area was 22 degrees reported high was 45 degrees..(if any one wisheds to verify http://www.weather.com/activities/other/other/weather/yesterday.html?locid=68132) How about the temps in Memphis where they spent the night, low of 43 degrees high of 46 ...(if you wish to verify http://www.weather.com/activities/other/other/weather/yesterday.html?locid=USTN0325)... The large 16x16x8 box was our standard large with 1/4" styrophoam, not the thick styro fish boxes that some use which hold much more heat... As of last check today in the month of january we shipped out 293 large boxes all with the exact same amount of heat packs, and 0 have arrived with all animals cooked... some arrived with animals cooler than desired... He is also takeing temp reading of the heat packs indoors at room temps not of a box in transit...He knew the animals were sent priority overnight to his shop, if wasnt planning to be there as early as fed ex why not send it to a more appropiate location? All the snakes didnt arrive dead as he claims either, one was alive upon arrival and then died a bit later... The other 2 appeared to have just died...Here you can see where fed ex shows the delivery attempt
Feb 3, 2005 3:23 PM
Delivered
Omaha, NE
10:15 AM
Delivery exception
OMAHA, NE
Customer not available or business closed
7:45 AM
On FedEx vehicle for delivery
OMAHA, NE
So now shippers have to also bear the burdens of others mistakes? Funny how he first admitted to his error and said he wasnt looking for any compensation? These guys sat in a fed ex truck for an extra 5 hours and 15 min..
Alfredo Veloso

Like I said. Xtreme posted that they shipped with 4 heat packs, 3-40hr and 1-30hr. From TLCs description of the actual heat packs enclosed, there were actually 2-40hr and 2-30hr packs. So NO there was LESS heat in your box than in other boxes.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

"People fail to see the faxt that there were 3 heat packs of average temp 108 (the normal one used by everyone) and a smaller one average temp 70 degrees.... we use the smaller one to help balance the box out and after 6 years of doing so have manged to come up with thsi formula.... So in essence there were 3 hot heat packs and one that was a lot cooler and if mickey checks he will see that heat pack has 2 red stripes on it


Alfredo Velsos"

As you can see at one point Alfredo said 3 heat packs. He did not pack the animals himself, so he may not have even truely known how many heat packs were in it.

If he truely were shipping boxes with 4 heat packs to everyone, Im sure someone else will chime in to that fact. As I said I have NEVER before this recieved a box with 4 heat packs in it. Let alone loosely packed in the box.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

DUH MY MISTAKE, I MISSED THE SECOND PART IN MY HASTE.

Either way, I still stand by never haveing recieved 4 heat packs in one box before.

Well this soap opera is over, unless Alfredo has anything new to add (as Im sure he likely doesnt) then its just going to die. Speaking of death, the 3rd one is on its door as we speak. Thats 0-6 with xtremes emeralds for me this season. Who knows if the 4th one will eat either, time will only tell.

 

[Ophis]

What!? even in the qoute you just posted its clear that he is stating that he packed 4 HEAT PACKS! 3 normals and a smaller one. I just can't see how this translates to you as 3 heat packs!

 

[Ophis]

Woops. you beat me to it with your last post. sorry.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Sorry I just read the first part of it where he said he used 3 - 40 hour heat packs.

Again I WAS MISTAKEN.

While Im on again, I am doing a bit of research. Temps for care of emerald tree boas

This is from the care shee located here
http://www.d-g-s.com/daemons/etbcare.htm

"Temperature : Maintenance Cycle : Beginning the 6th day after a feeding, and lasting until the next feeding.
For year round use with all non-breeders, neonate through adult, temperatures should be kept between a Day Time High of 84°F to a Night Time Low of 75°F. Fluctuation, although a natural event, is unnecessary. Keepers may prefer to employ the optimum fixed Maintenance temperature of 82°F inbetween feeding cycles."


And this one

http://www.reptileallsorts.com/emeraldtreeboa-cs.html

"Temperatures:
Now, there will probably be people who will argue with my temperature regimen, but no one will ever be happy and that’s just something we’ll all have to live with. For the most part, I like to keep my temperature steady for my babies, juvies, and non-breeding adults. For these animals I like to keep a nice stable 80F all day long, sometimes with a slight drop at night and a slight raise during the day that happens naturally without any intentional manipulation, it usually never swings more than two or three degrees in any given direction. At these temps the animals remain nice and stable and have no problems whether digesting or shedding. Adults, especially breeders go through a much more complicated scheduling which I don’t want to get into in much detail because of the fact that it is very variable. As a rule, I try to keep adults at 80F during the off season when they are just putting on weight. Towards the end of September, I begin nightly drops into the lower 70's. Never below 70 though. The day time highs reach about 82-83F in order to offset the NTL’s (night time lows). This continues throughout the majority of the breeding season, when actual breeding is observed I often employ the use of rain chambers to increase humidity drastically which seems to put the icing on the cake. Later on, about mid to late March the males and non-gravid females are returned to the regular 80F temperatures. Possibly gravid females are also maintained at an even 80F but are offered a basking site of about 93F which they will often put to good use. After parturition they are returned to normal steady temps until the next season. Now many people will recommend the use of lower temperatures, even going so far as to say that lower temps will correct regurgitation problems. This is true to an extent but care must be taken that an animal with chronic regurgitation is not exposed to sub-optimal temperatures that will further debilitate it. It is my personal belief that an emerald tree boa should not be dropped below 70F, ever. "

And this one here
http://groups.msn.com/HerpetocultureChatGroup/emeraldtreeboas.msnw

"TEMPERATURE & HUMIDITY: Emeralds come from the muggiest climate on earth! I've been there several times and know firsthand. It is hot and sticky all the time, oftentimes even at night. Keep them around 82 degrees day and night for the first three years after birth. Once they're older you can vary temperatures to induce breeding. Although humidity must be kept high for proper shedding and health, airflow must be established to prevent cages from becoming stagnant. Humidity along South American rivers ranges from 85% to 100% at all times. Emeralds have evolved with this requirement. To establish these humidity levels, cages can be misted daily with non-chlorinated, warm water, and large water basins (oftentimes covering entire bottom of cage) will add significantly to cage humidity. All our emeralds have live plants (pothos variety) in their cages to add even more humidity and freshness. "

Now thoose are just pages I found on the web, I tried to go to more distinquised breeders, but thats what I got. Notice they are all saying right around 84. Theese guys were at a minnimum of 88 ambient, and that assumeing none of the delis were anywhere near the heat pack. When I first touched them the animals were very warm (I wish now I had temp gunned the corspse, but I didnt).

As I said I started this thread for others input. It turned into something I wish it hadnt. I wasnt trying to "blackmail" Alfredo, or anything like that. I was hopeing you guys could be a mediator of sorts. Alfredo says I jumped the gun posting, but I feel he jumped the gun also. I didnt intend to hang him out to dry in the manner this has occured, but at this point Im pretty fed up with the whole situation. I have stated my previous experience with Xtreme, and I will be honest that its not just them. Its my experience with alot of wholesalers. I understand the risks of buying imports, and if I didnt I assure you I would have posted about the other shipments prior, but I didnt untill now. I just wanted input on the heat packs, and Ive provided the pictures, and all the info I can. It turned ugly, nothing will ever be solved, and thats that.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Notice they are all saying right around 84. Theese guys were at a minnimum of 88 ambient, and that assumeing none of the delis were anywhere near the heat pack.

That's one thing I was about to say today. If there were heat packs loose in the box they could've very well been in contact with the delis during transit. That may explain why not all snakes died although they were in the same box.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Well just to help others see why I speculate that the delis did indeed come in contact with the packs (and likely the snakes, as they were loosely packed in large delis with just a papertowel) I am going to take another picture tommorow of the box, but this time I will pull the lid, and insert the actual 3 delis into the box. You will see quickly that there wouldnt be much room for a heat pack to be too far from any deli, let alone maybe MULTIPLE heat packs near one deli. This is the point Ive been getting at all along. Untill I temped the box, I felt like yea just maybe the delay was to blame. I do not hold myself above responsibility. However after seeing the temps, realizeing there were 4 heat packs, and thinking back to just a few minutes prior and the snakes being very warm, I realized they were cooked delay or no delay. Hell the one that survived is likely what all 3 would have been like at MINIMUM without a delay.

So tommorow when I get to the shop, I will take a new box pic and post it.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Sorry about the delay, didnt get a shot of the box till this morning. Here is the exact box, exact delis, and even the exact heat packs and packageing that was in the box. Notice how little room there is for the packs once you add the delis. Also thoose delis were rather large for the emeralds. With only papertowels in to hold them, they likely slid all over in the delis (and easily could have slid up next to a heat pack).

 

[BrianB]

Here's what I'm getting out of this:

1. The seller is out of line with some of their comments. The buyer gets pissed off, you don't toss back insults. That's very unprofessional. Nevermind that Mickey is also a seller, he's the customer in this case, and some of the comments from Alfredo were poor customer service. (Mickey does fly off the handle sometimes, but he did not mention the seller at first and was being pretty reasonable to start with IMO.)

2. Someone said that we aren't seeing a lot of other complaints about cooked animals from Xtreme, so that tends to support their view. Wrong. We are only discussing this transaction, and the whole world is not beating a path to this site, no matter how useful this site is. (They should be, but I'm sure a good number of buyers aren't aware of this site, or don't post here for other reasons.)

3. The seller did NOT send tracking info. Somehow, Mickey figured out the package was on the way, and knowing that, I'd expect him to be there for a morning delivery. I would be. But it doesn't change the fact that the seller didn't communicate very well on shipping.

4. Shippers should pack well enough that animals will survive a lot longer delay than five hours. Packages, even ones containing herps, get lost for several days with any of the major shippers sometimes.

5. The seller's TOS do not state that the buyer not being present voids the live arrival guarantee.

6. The number of heat packs seems excessive. I recieved (in a smaller box) a boa this morning. Temps were in the high 20s and early 30s on this end, when he was out on the delivery truck. The heat pack was taped to one side of hte box, opposite the snake. Snake was at 60F when he arrived* (surface temp, of course) and the heat pack at 84F. I've never had anyone use more than two heat packs even in the larger sized boxes. The temps had to be significantly higher than measured by Mickey at some point in the trip, and that's high enough to kill the snakes.

7. Someone mentioned the 20 degree rise in temps during the day. The seller mentioned the FedEx guy possibly taking a two hour lunch (another unprofessional remark, and who the heck knows of a FedEx driver with that much time to kill?), etc.. One word for both: Styrofoam. Insulation. If you used enough of it, a temp change that small should barely register inside the box. Especially when the inside box temps were MUCH higher to start with....

Also, the heat packs seem to have been loose in the box. If that's the case, that's clearly negligent on the shipper's part, but the shipper hasn't admitted to that as far as I can see in this thread, and it really doesn't change anything in the end.

Bottom line, according to the seller's own terms, they are responsible for rectifying the situation. This thread has turned into a pissing contest between the two parties, but it doesn't change the fact of the matter or the seller's obligation in the matter.

Just my .02.

*I don't know if emeralds can tolerate 60F or not, and obviously it was a different sized box, etc. Just giving some info on the arrival temp of the heatpack itself.

 

[dzoo]

You'll catch more flies with Sugar than Vinegar.....

I am sure that if Mickey had maintained a cool head, been a bit more patient and not posted so quickly and in such a harsh tone I'm sure an amicable solution could have been worked out.

I am positive that Xtreme reptiles did not INTENTIONALLY pack the reptiles in a manner that would kill them enroute. Why would they?

I receive packages from Xtreme on a fairly regular basis and have always been impressed by the packaging. On the boxes that I receive some of the heat packs are right on top when you open the box, and there is a thick layer of shredded newspaper between the heatpacks and the animals. And actually the animals at the bottom of the box are somewhat cool because this layer of shredded newspaper seems to prevent a lot of the heat from traveling down. So it is very possible that the temp measured when the top of the box was cracked open does not accurately depict the temp at the bottom of the box where the deli cups were. And obviously if you aim the temp gun right at a heat pack you will get a high reading. Temp gunning the deceased snakes would have been more accurate. The heat packs do not circulate the heat very well, its not like there is a little fan on them forcing the heat through the whole box, its a very passive heat although if they were in direct contact with the deli cups that could obviously cause a problem.

Of all the importers I have dealt with Xtreme has been , by far, the best. I do not buy a lot of imported reptiles because of the inherent problems with them but the few I have purchased from Xtreme have been in good shape. and properly packed.

Before dealing with Xtreme I dealt strictly with another big importer in Florida - their boxes were sent out with nothing to fill the void spaces in the box (i.e. no shredded paper like Xtreme) so cups and bags just flew around during shipping and animals were loose in the box upon arrival. Amphibians had "no live arrival guarantee" so you could always expect a few dead ones (that were probably dead when packed), if you ordered 12 lizards at least one would be DOA, and the living ones dehydrated (never saw leopard geckos suck up water so fast) AND there was "no live arrival guarantee" ON ANYTHING shipped Fed Ex or UPS! So probably the majority of shipments had no guarantee at all.
***********************

Here are their terms:
Live arrival guarantee only on shipments sent airport to airport (airfreight), picked-up by customer within 4 hours of arrival.
No live arrival guarantee for shipments delayed or mishandled by the carrier. Claims must be placed with carrier.
No live arrival guarantee on shipments sent door to door.
No live arrival guarantee on shipments sent to destinations below 40(f) degrees or above 89(f) degrees.
No live arrival guarantee on amphibians at anytime.
All claims and unacceptable animals must be called in within 24 hours of arrival of destination airport.
**************************************

So count your blessings with Xtreme. I figure their liberal guarantee policy and lack of disclaimers is because they have confidence that they are selling good animals and have confidence in their packing and shipping methods. But after dealing with this case and some others on the BOI (i.e. Tackyturtle) I would not be surprised if they do adopt all the standard disclaimers and that is dissapointing.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Well Jon I have to disagree with your assesment.

I have been more then patient with Alfredo's company. I did not post threads in regards to the animals I was shipped in my first two boxes. I did call Alfredo, and was told I would be credidted, and never was.

You may have recieved great packages from Alfredo, but I guess as I was a new "mark" I did not. In my first two shipped boxes, I lost a good portion of the orders, many higher dollar animals. No refunds. The only replacements I recieved for my losses were the 6 mountain horns they replaced when I raised the issue.

So when I got this box, and started getting the full blame I got the feeling I was going to be SOS. Alfredo then took the oppertunity to out his name on the thread, to use it as an excuse to not cover the animals.

According to his terms he owes me for the two dead snakes. Will I ever see the money HELL NO. Would I have seen it without this thread, I highly doubt it. Im glad others have gotten good packages shipped to them from xtreme, I sure havent. Quick recap of my experience in 3 shipments (Im not even going to mention the hand picked items, as they all fall on me as I packed them).

2 of 3 ornate uros dead from first order within a week. Arrived VERY VERY THIN, called on them, was told ship back if not happy. Funny this was my first order with them, and I told him I only wanted QUALITY ANIMALS, and would perfer zeros on the invoice to corpses. So they only shipped 3 instead of the 5 ordered, and they should have only shipped one.

3 emeralds in same order as ornates, sold as small, told approx 18", were not. One never fed, two were chronic pukers had to be given out to protect other animals in the shop.

4 of 6 satanic leaftails dead within 5 days from second order. Two arrived dead (WAS NEVER CREDIDTED, but did inform them day of arrival "never had that problem before"). Other two died in the Omaha Henery Dorley Zoos care within 3 days of arrival (one died on the drive from the shop to the zoo on the second day after landing). Never refunded on theese in any way.

6 of 10 (think it was 10) mt horn dragons arrive dead (all 10 were packed in a medium snake bag, theese were large mt horns I believe they were suffocated).

2 dead nigerian uros within 3 days of arrival (one arrived dead, and was reported, other was not reported) never credited.

2 of 3 emeralds arrive cooked. Report the problem. On the phone (as with one the phone when reporting other doas) Alfredo and I acted as if it would be worked out. At the time I did not realize the package was sent with 4 heat packs. Once I did realize this, and sent photos, and went to email Alfredo began to blame me 100% and ask what he was supposed to do.

The thread was then posted.

Now IF, and I understand you may or may not believe what I am saying but bare with me, IF YOU WERE I would you not have questioned the chances of any sort of refund?

 

[DragonCharm]

You may have recieved great packages from Alfredo, but I guess as I was a new "mark" I did not.

That's a pretty serious word you are using there. I read that as you calling him a theif or scam artist, is that the word you were looking to use?

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Richard

Please dont put words into my mouth. I stated what I stated. I have said my side of the story.