4" Turtle Ban Lifted!

[droogievesch]

I would have to look back at the law, but I believe the bill only mentioned the sale of baby turtles, and not the purchasing or ownership. There was also another loop hole about being a hobbyist vs. a breeder. So if I had a pair and they had eggs I was allowed to sell the babies as long as I wasn't a business. The law targeted wholesalers and petstore where the conditions were not ideal and salmonella would be a threat. Like any law though it was open for interpretation, all I know was I was told I was fine and I didn't need to worry about it. If I had 50 or so in a small tub she may have had a different tone though.

 

[KCRD.com]

Here's another issue that was brought up....

I was questioned at a show recently if the change in the law included baby tortoises, and the answer is, yes. The law specifically mentions turtles, however tortoises technically fall under the family of turtles. Often this is confused in that people classify terrapins as turtles, when in fact turtles are the family that terrapins and tortoises both belong to. That is why you hear the term "water turtle" and "land turtle" often used.

 

[ExoticsExpress]

I was questioned at a show recently if the change in the law included baby tortoises, and the answer is, yes. The law specifically mentions turtles, however tortoises technically fall under the family of turtles. Often this is confused in that people classify terrapins as turtles, when in fact turtles are the family that terrapins and tortoises both belong to. That is why you hear the term "water turtle" and "land turtle" often used.

Great to hear!

Anthony Allis
[email protected]

 

[romad119]

The law should cover all chelonians.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I was questioned at a show recently if the change in the law included baby tortoises, and the answer is, yes. The law specifically mentions turtles, however tortoises technically fall under the family of turtles. Often this is confused in that people classify terrapins as turtles, when in fact turtles are the family that terrapins and tortoises both belong to. That is why you hear the term "water turtle" and "land turtle" often used.

I had typed out a complete breakdown of turtle taxonomy. It took about fifteen minutes and went down the list starting with the Kingdom.

Then Fauna decided to eat it, give me a "cannot find the site" error when I posted the reply and cause me to start punching my desk (Note: Desk is denser than knuckle bones. Ouch.)

The whole point of writing it out though was to provide a complete and detailed explaination of the difference between the taxonomic levels of Family and Order and point out that you had misused one of them. And to then illustrate exactly what the taxonomic relationship between them all was.

If anyone actually cares, I can rewrite it. If nobody needs to see it that badly or everyone realizes they can just find it on their own, then I'll stick with my point of "Please quit using the word family as a substitute for the word order. They are not synonyms. (phrased in a long winded manner that includes strong undertones of "neener neener neener, I'm smarter than you are")"

 

[RJBILBY]

Tortoise

Isn't the catch to selling all turtles and tortoises going to be the part that states:
(1) the turtle is raised, shipped, and sold using methods proven to keep the turtle free of salmonella, using salmonella safety standards comparable to standards for other animals allowed for sale as pets or animal products allowed for sale as food products; (2) the FDA has approved a plan submitted by the turtle farmer or seller relating to compliance with this Act;
I know a lot of the big farmers in Louisiana have set up treatment facilities for their turtle farms, mainly red ear sliders, but how many other turtle and tortoise (especially) breeders are going to set up these facilities and meet the FDA plans? They treat these eggs from the day their laid and this is the biggest reason this law was introduced.

 

[KCRD.com]

I had typed out a complete breakdown of turtle taxonomy. It took about fifteen minutes and went down the list starting with the Kingdom.

Then Fauna decided to eat it, give me a "cannot find the site" error when I posted the reply and cause me to start punching my desk (Note: Desk is denser than knuckle bones. Ouch.)

The whole point of writing it out though was to provide a complete and detailed explaination of the difference between the taxonomic levels of Family and Order and point out that you had misused one of them. And to then illustrate exactly what the taxonomic relationship between them all was.

If anyone actually cares, I can rewrite it. If nobody needs to see it that badly or everyone realizes they can just find it on their own, then I'll stick with my point of "Please quit using the word family as a substitute for the word order. They are not synonyms. (phrased in a long winded manner that includes strong undertones of "neener neener neener, I'm smarter than you are")"

Uhh, okay.

 

[jfarah]

So is it illegal for me to order some baby turtles online and sell them at a local reptile show here in Colorado?

 

[KCRD.com]

It is only illegal if you are selling native species, or if you are selling babies with out a sign that says they are for educational or scientific purposes only, or if your city has a blanket ban on them in general.

 

[elect]

Depending on what state you’re in; the above listed sign is good for nothing (educational or scientific purposes only). The FDA photographed my sign and took my signature sheet after an undercover agent purchased one of each species.
They then confiscated all of my babies and fined me $1000.00 (thank god not per turtle because I had 100’s of them).
Heres the deal, the law has not fully passed yet (only the senate and not the house) but the FDA is on a stand by which means you may buy, sell, or posses turtles under a 4” carapace at this time.
I believe if Pet-Co is carrying them then it must be ok but what state is the Pet-Co in because Florida and California both have ignored this law for years, not only in the pet trade but pet stores as well, in Florida you can walk into any pet store and find baby turtles for sale…

 

[Lee Watson]

FDA Confiscation

Tom, I believe you have all your facts mixed up. If a person is (or was) selling turtles under 4" the FDA will issue a demand for disposition. The demand says turtles shall not be sold, distributed or otherwise disposed of except by an approved method of dispostion.
You may comply with this demand for disposition or within 10 working days appeal the demand to the FDA in Md. If they don't disagree with your appeal, You come under one of the many exceptions under the law.
According to the FDA there has never been a conviction under this law. I would have to believe you were arrested by local govt.
Basically you would have to violate the demand for disposition to violate the law.

Lee Watson

 

[aechia81]

I can't speak for any other states or stores, but the local Petco in PA carries only red ear sliders 4 inches or larger, and I've heard no news that upper management plans to sell anything smaller. In fact, the 4-inchers only came back within the last couple of years, after they lifted the PA ban on sales of -all- turtles/tortoises, regardless of size.

For anyone who's interested in knowing, store P&P actually requires associates to provide customers buying the turtles with both caresheets and salmonella fact sheets (and also urge the customer to bring the animal back to the store if they decide they don't want it or end up not being able to care for it). Of course, whether the individual employees follow that rule is always another story, but I've heard rumor that the FDA can fine sellers for not providing that information. Anyone else hear anything like this?

Jessica Morrissey

 

[homegrownherps]

For those who may not know, Marc Cantos has been actively representing the interests of the Florida Reptile Industry for the past several years with various legislative groups in the state of Florida. The issues stated below are very serious and everyone needs to step up and support the efforts of groups like PIJAC to prevent this type of broad-brush legislature.

Please read all of this! The portions marked in red are especially dangerous to anyone involved in the reptile trade.

Hello Everyone:
PIJAC is preparing a Pet Alert for next week that will explain how this amendment has gotten to this point, and what will be going on from here.

Essentially, at the urging of a group of renegade Louisiana turtle farmers, Senator Mary Landrew D La, has snuck this amendment on an Agriculture bill that has already passed the Senate. The bill must now be reviewed by conference committees in both the House and Senate. If it passes, the President will sign it into law. We ALL need to contact the conference committee members once they are named, along with our own Congressmen and Senators - to take it up with the conference committee members. (PIJAC will provide the contact info.)
**In case you're not sure how you're reading it, These turtle farmers are openly screwing the entire reptile industry, as this amendment requires the Secretary of Agriculture to either repeal the 4 inch turtle law, or prohibit the sale of any reptile species that may pose a salmonella threat. If this passes, the Humane Society Of the United States will push harder than pit bulls for this new law to be enforced. Please get this out to everyone affected; and everyone please be prepared to read next week's Pet Alert, spread the information contained, and then act (contact your representatives) as soon as the conference committees are named. (PIJAC will keep us posted). They will need to hear it from us, and our Senators and congressmen. Or, we can all start figuring out what we'd all do after reptiles...
Marc Cantos
PS Happy Holidays

READ ALL OF IT; BABY TURTLES ARE NOT THE WHOLE ISSUE. THIS IS FROM THE CURRENT "HERP DIGEST"....

9) The Domestic Pet Turtle Equality Act – Or the Louisiana Turtle Farmers Strike Again.

(Editor- Defenders of Wildlife found this snuck into the Senate Farm Bill manager's amendment that passed last week (page 48). The only information that I have at the moment, that I believe is true, is that necessary hearings between the House and Senate to iron out a single bill that both houses of congress can vote on will take place in February. As I stated I believe this is just another attempt by the Louisiana turtle farmers to legalize the sale of red-eared sliders in the U.S. Thus making it possible to buy turtles not only on the street corners of every major city in the U.S., but your local pet shop, pet chain and even Walmart. Though the Farmer’s representatives got the amendment attached to the Senate version of the FDA bill, it was removed by the House. Now the farmer’s reps are trying to attach it to the recently passed Agriculture bill. I will be sending additional information on this as I receive it.)

The following is the bill as it now stands.

TITLE __--DOMESTIC PET TURTLE MARKET ACCESS
SEC. __. SHORT TITLE.
This title may be cited as the "Domestic Pet Turtle Equality Act ".
SEC. __. FINDINGS.

Congress makes the following findings:
(1) Pet turtles less than 10.2 centimeters in diameter have been banned for sale in the United States by the Food and Drug Administration since 1975 due to health concerns.

(2) The Food and Drug Administration does not ban the sale of iguanas or other lizards, snakes, frogs, or other amphibians or reptiles that are sold as pets in the United States that carry salmonella bacteria. The Food and Drug Administration also does not require that these animals be treated for salmonella bacteria before being sold as pets.

(3) The technology to treat turtles for salmonella, and make them safe for sale, has greatly advanced since 1975. Treatments exist that can eradicate salmonella from turtles up until the point of sale, and individuals are more aware of the causes of salmonella, how to treat salmonella poisoning, and the seriousness associated with salmonella poisoning.

(4) University research has shown that these turtles can be treated in such a way that they can be raised, shipped, and distributed without having a recolonization of salmonella.

(5) University research has also shown that pet owners can be equipped with a treatment regimen that allows the turtle to be maintained safe from salmonella.

(6) The Food and Drug Administration and the Department of Agriculture should allow the sale of turtles less than 10.2 centimeters in diameter as pets as long as the sellers are required to use proven methods to treat these turtles for salmonella.

SEC. __. REVIEW, REPORT, AND ACTION ON THE SALE OF BABY TURTLES.

(a) Pet Turtle.--In this section, the term "pet turtle" means a turtle that is less than 10.2 centimeters in diameter.

(b) Prevalence of Salmonella.--Not later than 60 days after the date of enactment of this title, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, acting through the Commissioner of Food and Drugs, shall determine the prevalence of salmonella in each species of reptile and amphibian sold legally as a pet in the United States in order to determine whether the prevalence of salmonella in reptiles and amphibians sold legally as pets in the United States on average is not more than 10 percent less than the percentage of salmonella in pet turtles.

(c) Action if Prevalence Is Similar.--If the prevalence of salmonella in reptiles and amphibians sold legally as pets in the United States on average is not more than 10 percent less than the percentage of salmonella in pet turtles--

(1) the Secretary of Agriculture shall--

(A) conduct a study to determine how pet turtles can be sold safely as pets in the United States and provide recommendations to Congress not later than 150 days after the date of such determination;

(B) in conducting such study, consult with all relevant stakeholders, such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the turtle farming industry, academia, and the American Academy of Pediatrics; and

(C) examine the safety measures taken to protect individuals from salmonella-related dangers involved with reptiles and amphibians sold legally in the United States that contain a similar or greater presence of salmonella than that of pet turtles; and

(2) the Secretary of Agriculture--

(A) may not prohibit the sale of pet turtles in the United States; or

(B) shall prohibit the sale in the United States of any reptile or amphibian that contains a similar or greater prevalence of salmonella than that of pet turtles.

FYI: Mike and Marshall at PIJAC's E-mail address'
[email protected], [email protected]

 

[homegrownherps]

I contacted Marc to see if he would let us know how we could help. He's not familiar with using these forums, so he gave me permission to post his comments.

Thanks for showing me this Jim. I don't know how to put info on it (maybe you can)but, individuals can contact PIJAC to stay informed and jump right in once the conference committees are named in both the House and the Senate - by contacting the members, and their own representatives (Senators and Congressmen) to take up the issue with the conference committee members. The more people who speak up, the better.
Remember, the Reptile Industry as a whole, has always sided with the farmers on this issue, and for the farmers to stab the industry and pet owners in the back like this is not only the lowest of the low, but serves us all up to humane extremist groups who could not have divided and conquered us any better themselves...
Making their dream of a world without pets, one giant step closer...

 

[Beardie_Guy]

This is horrible. So many turtles are neglected already, and now you can get them at Petco or Petsmart!

 

[Cat_72]

Levi, while I am not thrilled with the sale of the baby turtles again either, I think you missed the much larger issue that is at hand...Jim's quote from Mark Cantos summarized it very well.

**In case you're not sure how you're reading it, These turtle farmers are openly screwing the entire reptile industry, as this amendment requires the Secretary of Agriculture to either repeal the 4 inch turtle law, or prohibit the sale of any reptile species that may pose a salmonella threat. If this passes, the Humane Society Of the United States will push harder than pit bulls for this new law to be enforced.

This is an issue that could potentially affect not only the entire reptile industry as a whole, but even our individual rights to even keep our herps...ANY of them....as pets.

 

[RCampbell]

Taken from Herp Digest :

1) Status of Proposed Repeal of Four-Inch Ban on Sale of Turtles, or the “Domestic Pet Turtle Equality Act”

Late last year The “Domestic Pet Turtle Equality Act”, was added as an amendment to the Senate’s version of the Farm Bill. The amendment was aimed to repeal the ban of the sale of turtles four inches and under in the U.S.

But the Act was not in the House of Representatives’ version. So though both versions overwhelmingly passed, since the versions passed were different (there were many other differences besides the turtle language) they had to go to a committee of senators and congressmen to iron out the differences.

The committee first met in very late January 2008. All meetings of the committee on the Farm Bill were/are closed to the public. And there will be no public hearings or comment period. (So much for transparency in government.)

But even before then negotiations officially started between the senators and congressman; lobbyists and lawmakers not in the committee, were approaching the committee members to get other amendments snuck in or taken out or language changed.

The White House was also actively involved, sending messages describing what version of the bill they wanted to see, and what specific elements if included or not taken out would cause President Bush to veto the entire bill. In fact, such a veto threat is now holding up the bill from leaving committee.

This has been going on all of February and seems like it will continue to go into April, at the earliest. (See article below to get a sense of what is happening about the bill, though it has no mention of the turtle act.)

At the moment I have no idea if the “Domestic Pet Turtle Equality Act” is still attached to the Farm Bill, has been added onto the House’s version, or if any of the original language has been changed.

I, we, will only know when the Farm Bill finally comes out of committee to be voted on.

If it is still there, and gets passed and signed into law, turtles four inches and under will not become automatically legal.

As it was first introduced the amendment stated that the ban was based on 30-year old science, and that there now exists truly salmonella free turtles.

The Act mandated that a series of studies begin within 60 days of the enactment of the law by the Secretary of Health and Human Services, acting through the Commissioner of Food and Drugs, with the Department of Agriculture to conduct a study comparing salmonella levels in turtles and herps legally sold in the U.S.

If the levels are the same, (with what looks like a 10% margin of error plus or minus) the Department of Agriculture shall in 150 days submit a report on how turtles below four inches can again be sold in the U.S. (supposedly safely, minimizing risk of spreading salmonella even from the so-called salmonella free turtles.)

Then departments such as the FDA and CDC will make their own decisions based on the report whether or not to accept the recommendations or implement them.

So don’t expect to see legally sold turtle fewer than four inches this year.
(Copy of the original text of the “Domestic Pet Turtle Equality Act” is available upon request [email protected]).

 

[droogievesch]

Does anyone know the status of this bill?

 

[Kiote_9]

I know this is old but it seemed so...unfinished

http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptile-news/2008/08/22/baby-turtle-ban.aspx

"Baby Turtle Ban Still Bouyant
New legislation for the domestic sale of baby turtles measuring 4 inches or less is dead in the water.

For the time being, legislation permitting the domestic sale of baby turtles is dead in the water.

An amendment Louisiana turtle farmers had hoped would repeal the 33-year-old ban on selling turtles measuring 4 inches or less was removed from this year’s farm bill: the Food, Conservation and Energy Act of 2008. Congress overrode an executive veto to pass the legislation in late May.

Although some turtle farmers might have been disappointed by the news, the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council, which opposed the amendment, celebrated it. Michael Maddox of PIJAC’s governmental affairs staff said the way the provision was crafted it could have had the opposite effect, solidifying the baby-turtle ban while expanding it to encompass many other reptile and amphibian species.

“This measure is dead for the present,” Maddox said."

 

[Pony]

more Red-eared Sliders in the pet trade! As a rescue, I'm tired of the phone calls to place these for whatever stupid excuse. "I didn't know it would get this big"!
"I'm pregnant"! "I'm tired of caring for it"! And so on. There are some great SMALLER turtles that make much better pets than a red-eared slider.

This times 9999999999999999