A.N.G. Pets and Exotics - Disgusting!

[ravensgait]

Bobby why do you insist on reading into what people write? Wes didn't say it was Right or Wrong ! Just as I don't see it as being Right but I do see it as his right to do what he wants with what belongs to him.

You don't like it fine I got that from your first post but then you drag in our ethics and morals?? I could read into your post to say you have something against those with handicaps ! see what I'm saying?? Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't make it wrong for someone else to do it.. As far as I know he didn't break any laws or even bend any .

So what next, if he sells it are we going to drag the buyer in here as well ? why not the buyers parents as they raised their kid with in Bobby's opinion poor ethics and Morals . I'm sure others feel as you do Bobby but there are those of us that feel he has the right to do what he wants despite some folks disapproval.

Funny how one week we say hey it doesn't belong on the BOI unless a deal has taken place and the next week we are hear lambasting someone over an add because we don't like his morals.. There was no deal made so why is this on the BOI ? Just because a name was mentioned? well damn some one's name gets mentioned in most every thread on this site, guess they all belong here then..

And once again just because I defend this yahoo's right to do what he wants with his Property doesn't mean I would of Buy, sell, breed, cook, eat ETC ETC blind snakes. So go ahead read things into what I said ETC ETC knock yourself out but if your going to bring up Ethics and Morals best look at your own first.. Randy

 

[varnyard]

Well Randy, I guess you missed this part:

Wes: I'll say there is nothing wrong with breeding it if it breeds true.

No one stuck his hand in the mixing bowl and made this snake. It just happened. If it can live and reproduce and there's a market for the babies, go for it.

So you can think it is fine to profit off handicaps and even create more for the money all you wish to. I will still say it is wrong, as well as morally lacking, just as this animal is lacking eyes, and as far as the ethics they are gone. That is my opinion on it, it has been that way from day one long, long ago, and that is not going to change now or ever. It is called, right and wrong, and black and white, I will not try to ever see something like this as a good thing or agree it is even close to good. It is very sad and sick at best.

So I will agree to disagree very strongly, and that is my opinion.

 

[BenSiegelReptiles]

i have given aways snakes with no eyes--judging by the way his price keeps going down, I do not think there is much of a market for them. Two headed snakes, now that is a different story-I have seen them go for alot. Other genetic defect ie albinism brings more money in most species. It is a free market. If he wants to try to sell a no eyes snake so be it--his other ads not sure about though- like his yellow mangrove hybrid ad--$150--wow--was not aware of anyone successfully breeding those two species together and how much they actually just look like a mangrove monitor. Also like the hypo nile ad with the water monitor used as a comparison color shot. I am actually shocked that no one has mentioned these.

 

[SPJ]

his yellow mangrove hybrid ad--$150--wow--was not aware of anyone successfully breeding those two species together and how much they actually just look like a mangrove monitor. Also like the hypo nile ad with the water monitor used as a comparison color shot. I am actually shocked that no one has mentioned these.

It just goes to show he is not a trustworrhy seller IMO.
Based on his ads, he will do anything to make a buck. Whether it is selling defected animals or misrepresenting animals. In addition, coming here and defending himself by posting as if he was someone else, shows his true character.
One to be avoided IMO.

 

[critical bill]

Some man live his life for profits alone, but that very same man he lives his life all alone.

"Collie Man" - Slightly Stoopid

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Ben, you have brought up some good thought provoking ideas, however, I have to agree to some degree with Bobby here. That animal has no place in the market. Yes, some yahoo could buy it and that's what bothers me the most, the fact that a deformed animal should ever be sold for profit.

If and this is a big if, said animal will survive, then it should be given away to a responsible loving keeper, not sold to the highest bidder. Had one of my animals produced it, I would have culled it, but that's just me and my opinion.

What one calls morally reprehensible another says it's not. That's what makes this industry what it is. Although I do not feel that morals have a lot to do with this thread, ethics, and responsibility do.

 

[The BoidSmith]

We keep defining genetic defects at everything that differs from the standard. An albino snake is a genetic defect but only because the environment might not let her survive compared to a "normal" animal. Evolution has taught at different though, panthers (a mutation) survive in the wild, blind fish survive in caves and the bottom of the ocean, what about cave salamanders. What we see as defects evolution has allowed the species give it a try and if the mutation is advantageous in any way the animal will survive. Defects that are invalidating will be culled naturally without our help. Of course now we have them in captivity so we need to decide ourselves! But albino and melanic snakes are still captured in the wild. Small insular boas have adapted their size to a reduced food supply, and so on.

Wes said something really interesting:

And also, you keep anthropomorphising this snake. How do YOU know if feels a lack, that it is unhappy, that it knows there is something wrong (and by whose definition is another important question) with it?

We need to try to avoid anthropomorphising snakes. If not it really should create a tremendous internal fight in any person with an ounce of sensibility, and you know why? Because probably there are lots of people who think that culling imperfect animals is the way to go.

If its brain is as small and simple as I think it is, all it really has any care at all about is being warm, getting water and food and MAYBE breeding. Not all snakes want to breed. All of us who do it know that.

With that I happen to agree. Not so long ago someone gave me three baby ball pythons with birth defects, all of them almost blind one of them with a shorter mandible that even impair him to drink. Only one of them would feed on it's own for a while, the third one couldn't even drink...all three are gone "natural selection" was helped out...

 

[Chameleon Company]

To one degree or another, all of us in the business sell animals for money (maybe even profit!) that are perfectly healthy in our hands, but will end up being killed by the person we sell them to. Admittedly, on the chameleon end, I sell a whole lot of animals that were bred to die prematurely so that I could pay my bills. I could tell you that my intentions were otherwise, but so what ! Didn't take "no eyes", etc, or some other detracting quality. Just a difficult animal sold to someone with money for me, who meant well, and meaning well was just not good enough. I guess no matter where you think you sit on the moral highway, there will always be one who thinks they sit ahead of you ! With luck, they will be downwind at an opportune time for me to let them know my appreciation for them

I am with Wes, Randy, and Ben on this one.

 

[varnyard]

So animals that should be on a scratch and dent sale list at best, are just fine to sell as better than normals, grade AAA+++ all the way, and if you got em, sell em? Hell, just reproduce more of them if you can, it's all good, right? I mean it is all about supply and demand, correct? Now sub-par animals are much better and worth more than ones that have all of the body parts? They are just so special; they are worth all the extra dough.

And it has nothing at all to do with morals or ethics, because what are ethics and morals when all that matters is the money?

Yea OK then, to each his own....

 

[richardduckworth]

i find it less appealing to cull an imperfect animal that COULD live an otherwise "regular" life. some birth defects are just impossible to get by. that i understand totally. some are very noticeable (no eyes, derma ball, etc) but if the animals eats, poops and seems otherwise fine, then why would you wanna kill it? i understand not breeding some of them but that's on the person who bred them. to me, it is simply saying "i don't wanna care for this animal". i've heard folks talk about culling imperfect animals in a way that makes them sound like they believe they're doing the animal and the rest of us a favor. it's just another load of crap, they're taking the easy way out and not assuming the responsibility. if you breed enough animals, some will be imperfect and while some may be horribly deformed, others can get by just fine.

 

[varnyard]

i find it less appealing to cull an imperfect animal that COULD live an otherwise "regular" life. some birth defects are just impossible to get by. that i understand totally. some are very noticeable (no eyes, derma ball, etc) but if the animals eats, poops and seems otherwise fine, then why would you wanna kill it? i understand not breeding some of them but that's on the person who bred them. to me, it is simply saying "i don't wanna care for this animal". i've heard folks talk about culling imperfect animals in a way that makes them sound like they believe they're doing the animal and the rest of us a favor. it's just another load of crap, they're taking the easy way out and not assuming the responsibility. if you breed enough animals, some will be imperfect and while some may be horribly deformed, others can get by just fine.

No Richard, he is not an imperfect animal, he is better than a perfect animal. He was born with no eyes, therefore he is worth over ten times the money as a healthy one. Remember the price tag was $1000.00 dollars because he has no eyes.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Bobby,
All due respect, and in accord with the supply and demand you note, what he asks for it will not determine its value. What one pays will. I do not think there is a waiting list anywhre for boas with no eyes. Boas with blue eyes and tits? Now you got something !
As to value, and the issues you take regarding such, when I see an ad from one of my competitors for a chameleon that I know to be somewhat common, but yet is described as being "great and unusual in every way" by the seller, with some huge price tag, my first thought is "ridiculous". My second thought is "I hope they get that price".

 

[LauraB]

I do agree the seller of this snake is not exactly trustworthy due to the ads that Ben pointed out, due to the outlandish original price tag he placed on the little snake and due to his phony "alter ego" posts here.
I do agree he does not have the best interests of this animal in mind and I also agree with Laura that a snake with such special needs should absolutely not be sold to the highest bidding yahoo. It should go to an experienced, well intentioned keeper only. I agree this snake should never be bred.

We've all seen the eyeless RES that are specially bred for that genetic anomaly - that's just plain reprehensible! We've all seen the over-priced melanistic, albino, leucistic reptiles on the market. We all know that every breeder wants to develop that new strain, that new unique and highly marketable animal. Whether it be eyeless, noseless, tongueless; whether it be blue checkered, or pink polka-dotted; whether it be altered by nature or altered by design; call it what you want, it's all just messin' with the gene pool. Right or wrong, it's all about marketing.

As far as culling this particular snake, I disagree. Animals with very obvious, life threatening deformities will be culled quite naturally. I'm sure that snake is not angry about not having eyes. I'm sure that snake is not dwelling on the big "why me?" I'm certain that snake does not realize it's quality of life is any different from any other snake. I have a little musk turtle with only 2 legs. My dog brought it home, minus the legs and with deep puncture wounds in it's shell. That was 5 years ago. Of course she would not have survived had I just taken her back to the lake. Today she is well cared for, moves around just fine in her tank and I'm certain she doesn't miss those legs a bit. Yes, that's different than born without eyes, but she still was not disposable in my eyes. I also have a special needs chameleon. I was advised by a few people to place him in the freezer as a humane means of euthanasia. He's going on 2 years now, eats (with my help) and drinks just fine....and no, he didn't come from Jim
When that chameleon dies, he dies. I don't however, want to be the cause of it if I can help it.

~ Laura Bolt

 

[Junkyard]

To one degree or another, all of us in the business sell animals for money (maybe even profit!) that are perfectly healthy in our hands, but will end up being killed by the person we sell them to. Admittedly, on the chameleon end, I sell a whole lot of animals that were bred to die prematurely so that I could pay my bills. I could tell you that my intentions were otherwise, but so what ! Didn't take "no eyes", etc, or some other detracting quality. Just a difficult animal sold to someone with money for me, who meant well, and meaning well was just not good enough. I guess no matter where you think you sit on the moral highway, there will always be one who thinks they sit ahead of you ! With luck, they will be downwind at an opportune time for me to let them know my appreciation for them

I am with Wes, Randy, and Ben on this one.

Maybe you should not have admitted that.

 

[Keith Northrop]

Does a one eyed Albino snake count???

Yeah......about as well as he can see in the dark on his left side.....I'm
starting to lean toward Laws to keeping certian humans from breeding......After this Week at the shop (Chameleon Counters)...I would vote
Obama in sec if he proposed "Sterilization"......HaHa...One eyed purple peter
eatters......What the Heck did that mean???

 

[Ken Foose]

In 1985, during the first public mass breeding's of het Burmese pythons, a cb het for albino burm was bred to a normal female burm. The result was a complete clutch of eyeless Burmese pythons. I don't know if this was genetic or a problem with incubation, but that does not matter now. What matters is that was 22 years ago. The debate then was to keep them alive or kill them off rather then have them end up in the potential genetic pool. I don't know what happened to them all but one of the hatchlings, as it was long ago and most of the hatchlings are most likely long dead. I do know that the one hatchling that I know for sure is left is a beautiful 23 ft female named Babe. She feeds on f/t rabbits and has been a pet to a nice family for the past 22 years. She's tame and acts and reacts just like a sighted Burmese python with a mellow attitude. I had a parakeet once with one leg. I never once thought of killing it because it always stood on one leg. I have a friend with a little dog with only its hind legs. It has wheels for front feet. I don't think my friend ever thought once about putting it down because of its lack of legs. The dog sure seems happy enough when I see it. And remember the lady that wanted a ton of money for the piece of toast with an image of some holy icon on it? If memory serves, she was asking a fortune for it. I think the whole idea was pretty silly, but it was her right to ask anything she wanted for her toast. After all, it was hers to sell for anything she wants. I know a guy whe says he will not work for less then $100 an hour. It's his right to work for that wage, and it's the right of others not to hire him. The seller of this snake has the right to ask anything he wants for it. And we all have the right to decline to pay the price. Pretty simple really

Ken

 

[Royal Morphz]

Man Ken that makes 2 from that very public (by 1985 standards) Burmese pairing that are still around and very healthy. I know of a beautiful burm from that pairing that is owned by a friend of my fathers in Nashville he is healthy and a family pet. my first breading endeavor was a albino to albino boa now i didn't know any better and thought "this will be a great way for me to make money and learn more" well of that pairing i got 2 one eyed albinos out of 12 that made it. I was then asked by a close friend was i going to kill them . i said no way was i going to end a living animals life because it had the misfortune of being born slightly different i have one of those snakes and he is now 8 and to this day has never had a problem i never bred him nor will i ever and i gave every other sibling away to people i knew would keep them for life and let them live i cant believe that we think we can deem ourselves "God" in this or any instance

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Maybe you should not have admitted that.

Michael

I believe what Jim was trying to say is that chams are relatively delicate animals that require a substantial amount of knowledge and finnesse to raise properly. They are not like snakes. Unless he was testing each and every buyer on their husbandry knowledge and skills, he has no way of knowing if they possess the knowledge to let the animals thrive. Hence, the premature death comment

 

[Junkyard]

I wondered that when I read the post, but he did post that they were "bred to die prematurely". I am only reading the lines, not trying to crawl around between them.

 

[Wraith]

I wondered that when I read the post, but he did post that they were "bred to die prematurely". I am only reading the lines, not trying to crawl around between them.

more of a tongue-in-cheek type comment from my view. If they are bred and sold to ignorant owners who manage to kill them within a year, then yes those animals were bred to die prematurely.