about siklback and their husbandry

[whiskersmom]

I don’t know the gentleman, but have heard nothing but great things about him and his company. What’s your point??

For the sake of offering a well-rounded view - Here’s another perspective on inbreeding from another well known monitor breeder - FR.



PS - Our apparently “inbred” silkback female has outgrown her outcrossed leatherback relatives by over 100grams. Go figure.

I was answering to KelliH's post saying that all of the large scale breeders practiced inbreeding. But my point is, there are some well known and respected breeders that didn't sell out to the all mighty dollar!

What is your point?
Doesn't it bother you at all that you are helping to ensure that captive bred bearded dragons will one day be extinct? Or could it be that because it probably won't happen in your lifetime, you don't care?

BTW, your post reminded me of another "large scale commercial breeder" who we won't name in fear of more 'rambling' posts.

 

[whiskersmom]

No, Agama Intl. is a commercial reptile breeder, no doubt about it. I said I didn't think they would be considered a large scale producer of bearded dragons. By the way, without the large scale commercial breeders of reptiles, you most likely would never have even had an opportunity to own a bearded dragon.

Then so be it, Kelli. If me not owning one of these animals would help to keep them pure and healthy, then who the hell am I to have one?
We really don't have a clue as to what we are accomplishing, do we?

 

[Valley Dragons]

Then so be it, Kelli. If me not owning one of these animals would help to keep them pure and healthy, then who the hell am I to have one?
We really don't have a clue as to what we are accomplishing, do we?

Sherri, the steadfast martyr for the bearded cause...

Do you honestly think that producing silkbacks will cause the whole species to go extinct?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Sherri, the steadfast martyr for the bearded cause...

Do you honestly think that producing silkbacks will cause the whole species to go extinct?

But breeding animals untested/positive for Adeno Will.

 

[Dachiu]

Doesn't it bother you at all that you are helping to ensure that captive bred bearded dragons will one day be extinct?

Sherri, this statement is absurd... Unless of course, you are going to go into detail about more of your opinions.

The fact is that you have no idea what is going on here in our breeding program with these particular imported animals - who we are breeding to what line, what other breeders we have possibly sent any of the offspring to, etc… and being ignorant of that information just annoys the crap out of you. Get over it.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Sherri, this statement is absurd... Unless of course, you are going to go into detail about more of your opinions.

The fact is that you have no idea what is going on here in our breeding program with these particular imported animals - who we are breeding to what line, what other breeders we have possibly sent any of the offspring to, etc… and being ignorant of that information just annoys the crap out of you. Get over it.

Wrong.

What's absurd is your total and complete lack of responsibility for the health of the animals that make your money for you.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Sherri, this statement is absurd... Unless of course, you are going to go into detail about more of your opinions.

The fact is that you have no idea what is going on here in our breeding program with these particular imported animals - who we are breeding to what line, what other breeders we have possibly sent any of the offspring to, etc… and being ignorant of that information just annoys the crap out of you. Get over it.

But we all DO know that you do not test your dragons for Adeno, and it is fact that you have/had it in your collection, correct? So, since you dont test, how do you know if the dragons you plan to breed these silkbacks to, dont carry the virus as well?

 

[Valley Dragons]

But we all DO know that you do not test your dragons for Adeno, and it is fact that you have/had it in your collection, correct? So, since you dont test, how do you know if the dragons you plan to breed these silkbacks to, dont carry the virus as well?

OMG, here we go again with the adeno argument! How do YOU know that adeno is a plague that is going to cause all bearded dragons to go extinct? Don't you think if adeno was that bad - and if Vicky has had it in her colony for a few years - that all HER dragons would be the first to die off?

Jamie

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

OMG, here we go again with the adeno argument! How do YOU know that adeno is a plague that is going to cause all bearded dragons to go extinct? Don't you think if adeno was that bad - and if Vicky has had it in her colony for a few years - that all HER dragons would be the first to die off?

Jamie

Am i saying its going to kill them all off? have i said that? UH NO.

Secondly, WHY should it be OKAY to breed animals WITH it!? shouldnt there be quarantined ( cant find the right word right now..) TESTS done to see the effects on the animals overall health? so far, i have not seen one GOOD thing about the virus come out, but that it actually has caused beardeds here in the USA to be much smaller than those in the wild of Australia. Now, that could jsut be a myth, but its just what ive come to learn so far about this virus.

 

[Denisebme]

There are quite a few dragon breeders who have particular knowledge and have utilized artificial insemination - and have proven it to work. Just because a few of you are not privy to this information, since it is not printed on a care sheet, please do not ASSume that it cannot be done.

A female silkback does NOT have to EVER be introduced to a male - to produce viable eggs.


The ignorance and harping of a select few has become annoyingly repetitious.
Who are you to make a decision for anyone else - of what should or should not be? What successful experiences do you have in raising, caring for and breeding dragons that entitles you to the honor of forcing your opinion on others? An opinion that has been formed on ASSumptions?

It is obvious after reading these posts, that certain people’s sincerity is nothing more than superficial. You aren’t looking to learn anything and you’re not interested in any of the information that has been provided - unless it can be used as ammunition.
Puppytoes made that glaringly obvious in one of her posts.

I haven't seen anyone forcing their opinions down anyones throats or trying to make decisions for them, and as always, your arrogance just astounds me. There is not a person on this forum whose opinion is any more or less valid than yours, and your repeated name calling of anyone that disagrees with you is ludicrous.
You can start talking about people with agenda when people on this forum start stalking your vet, until then, you should be pretty happy that all the discussion concerning this mutant is going on in a public forum instead of behind the scenes in manipulative phone calls.

 

[Dachiu]

Sherri - Would you mind posting our correspondences via private message through bd.org from back when the testing methods being claimed by chasity and Denise were in question? If you dont have them all.. I do. I wouldnt want to post a private conversation in a public forum without your consent...


Alicia - Exactly where did you read this information about adenovirus being responsible for making the dragons in the USA smaller than the ones in the wild in Au?

 

[KelliH]

Am i saying its going to kill them all off? have i said that? UH NO.

Yes you did. Valley Dragons asked Sherri:

Do you honestly think that producing silkbacks will cause the whole species to go extinct?

and you posted in reply to that, this statement:

But breeding animals untested/positive for Adeno Will.

So in essence you did say that adenovirus is going to cause the entire species to go extinct.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I'm sure Alex and others that found this thread today had a hard enough time going through the posts but just incase any one is a glutton for punishment these are the previous ones.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100720
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99285

 

[walker75]

OMG, here we go again with the adeno argument! How do YOU know that adeno is a plague that is going to cause all bearded dragons to go extinct? Don't you think if adeno was that bad - and if Vicky has had it in her colony for a few years - that all HER dragons would be the first to die off?


Jamie YOU &others have labled this the plague.. It is a very highly contagious virus that can and does kill babies also adults. If they live like mine they are a carrier of this virus.

What makes it a plague as you call it it when breeders continue to breed known positive dragons which they continue to do.

Do all die no.. but they are carriers for life and if they are breed which they are this also weakens there genetics. Ya know the saying ..She just happened to die for no apparent reason.

And since Vicky has had and may still have it it would have been real nice of her as a mass breeder of bearded dragons to come forward and tell the community of this Virus instead of selling the known positives that lived.

As such she hid it for years damage is done alot of dragons now have this virus and we are learning more about it. It would have been nice if the larger bearded dragon mills would not of swept this under the so called carpet.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Sherri - Would you mind posting our correspondences via private message through bd.org from back when the testing methods being claimed by chasity and Denise were in question? If you dont have them all.. I do. I wouldnt want to post a private conversation in a public forum without your consent...

Oh, you're referring to when you were calling Sherri trying to manipulate her to believe that the test didn't exist? You mean the test that other breeders in Denise's are have admitted to using? You know, that test that doesn't exist?

Please, Vickie, do get over yourself. You truly are one of the most arrogant individuals I've ever had the displeasure of "meeting".

 

[mikey]

Sherri - Would you mind posting our correspondences via private message through bd.org from back when the testing methods being claimed by chasity and Denise were in question? If you dont have them all.. I do. I wouldnt want to post a private conversation in a public forum without your consent...

I say post them !

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Yes you did. Valley Dragons asked Sherri:



and you posted in reply to that, this statement:



So in essence you did say that adenovirus is going to cause the entire species to go extinct.

In essence sure, but thats not the exact way it was meant to be taken. sorry, i forget you have to be 100% literal in these fun debates ^_-

the virus is KNOWN that it does KILL dragons, sure... not all, and some can live so long as their husbandry never falls out of line, but i NEVER said that it will kill ALL dragons or however its being interpreted like say, IBD does Boids. Like some crazy plague. Thats not at all how i think of this virus in the least, but!!!!! it will kill dragons, and it will slowly infect ALL dragons if people do not properly quarantine these animals and prevent them from passing the disease on. and then, whos to say if that happened, it wouldnt eventually kill everything off? does anyone know? for sure? please let the world know when one does know.... im sure theyre peeing their pants in anticipation for that information...

Do the people who are defending the virus or rather interpret that as saying "dragons can live perfectly well with this virus" know 110% that it wont eventually ruin the entire captive population if given more time, and more dragons to infect?

Do those of us, against this virus, and the unethical practices or allowing it to spread more, know 110% that it WILL kill all of the captive population, if given time?

No.

But why should it even be an issue. even a Goddang QUESTION as to if it should be in existance or not?!

I think the answer to that is VERY simple. NO. it should not exist in the captive population of dragons. It should be taken SERIOUSLY and its NOT!!!! Why cant people start PREVENTING a potential problem by testing their dragons and supporting those that do test? Is it really that much of a problem?! cause... if it is..... please.... stop breeding dragons.

MAN I HATE GREED. Those dollar signs are just too important i suppose...


So take what i say as you will, but the logic about this virus, and that of creating a mutant animal and allowing either to be promoted as OK, without knowing all of the facts, or doing experiments to FIND this information out before they are made public is wrong.
*edit*
Also I should mention that i do not feel that all dragons in the Captive population even HAVE the virus. I think whatever test results were first Put forth were outweighed by the fact that, most of the dragons sent to be tested ( or whatever they send to have tested) were positive witht he virus. There is VERY much a chance that ALOT of peoples dragons are in fact. NOT positive.
Shouldnt everything in the world be done to keep those dragons adeno free? shouldnt something be DONE by EVERYONE to keep them that way???

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Alicia - Exactly where did you read this information about adenovirus being responsible for making the dragons in the USA smaller than the ones in the wild in Au?

To be honest, i cant even remember now, Im waiting on an answer from one person to see if thats where i heard it from, but i cant say 100% right now.

Is it myth, or is it fact? even if partially, i think people would like to know.

Now, if they are smaller, would that be because of so much captive breeding, and possibly inbreeding? would it possibly be a cause of the virus in some of the captive animals?

If you dont know 100% i would like somone who does to answer. If anything, as least then we have a bit more information out there about it.

Theres too much speculation, and NOT enough fact.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

I don't think you can compare adeno to silkbacks. Silkbacks will not infect others to make them silkback.
Which is why I said before that the adeno virus debate should be seperate.
But no one has yet to state a question that hasn't been answered about the silkback. With the one exception of "What will the long term affects be?" which obviously can't be answered. And the "What will happen when it's bred?" which also.. can't be answered since apparently no one has bred a silkback yet, only leatherbacks to make silkbacks.
Turning the whole discussion to adeno and whether certain people are trustworthy.. or discussions from however long ago.. doesn't accomplish anything but to make less information available about silkbacks.
Adeno is a important discussion... that needs a thread about it. Isn't there several?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I don't think you can compare adeno to silkbacks. Silkbacks will not infect others to make them silkback.
Which is why I said before that the adeno virus debate should be seperate.
But no one has yet to state a question that hasn't been answered about the silkback. With the one exception of "What will the long term affects be?" which obviously can't be answered. And the "What will happen when it's bred?" which also.. can't be answered since apparently no one has bred a silkback yet, only leatherbacks to make silkbacks.
Turning the whole discussion to adeno and whether certain people are trustworthy.. or discussions from however long ago.. doesn't accomplish anything but to make less information available about silkbacks.
Adeno is a important discussion... that needs a thread about it. Isn't there several?

The reason adeno came back up, was more or less because it is known to have been, still be in, Vickies collection, but yet since they do not test, how do they know if they wont infect the silkbacks they now have? how do they know if they have it or not, still?
That should a concern to everyone in this hobby. And vickie herself. I mean, those animals DO make money for them dont they? And really, i wasnt about to take a stance for or against, and really im still not, about vickies dragons, but THAT was something that needed to be pointed out. And something i would not agree with.

Why would those animals be bred to possibly infected animals?

This thread has gone so far off course, its probably going to take a miracle to bring it back on track ^_- but such is the nature of fauna eh?