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about siklback and their husbandry

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Denisebme said:
What drives me crazy here is that you really can't have it both ways. The tests are either great, or they are meaningless, they can't be both.
The huge problem with the research as done of the University of Florida is that they aren't publishing any statistical data on the animals that they test, and as far as I know, no one is, which is always going to leave a question as to how much stock you can place in the research.
For a lot of us, this isn't a "potential" problem. We've heard from breeders who have had die offs and from people caring for sick dragons, and that first hand information is enough for us to make a decision.
Click to expand...

What drives ME crazy is that IT HAS TO BE BOTH WAYS to make an effective argument! I think it is great if people want to test, but without knowing what those tests MEAN, then what is the point? You CAN'T know what the tests mean, unless you know the health status of the animal that tested positive! I agree 100% that more statistics need to be published.

Jamie
 
Valley Dragons said:
If I had sick babies or problems with my animals, then testing would have been more of a priority.

Jamie
Click to expand...

Don't you have a responsibility to those babies that you send off with people who paid you money for them?
I'm sure all these beardies that have Adeno and are not doing good, started out showing no symptoms while still in the care of their breeder. How else were they able to sell them?
This isn't a new subject (although it is the wrong thread), when you decided to go into breeding Bearded Dragons, didn't it cross your mind to have your breeders tested?

I have a question for you Valley Dragons, if and when you have your beardies tested and if they all come back positive, will you 1) inform all potential buyers that they have Adeno and 2) will you stop breeding?
 
Denisebme said:
Here's the thing, no matter what I have chosen to do, its still legally actionable if someone else knowingly publishes slander in order to purposely do harm to your reputation.
Click to expand...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92001&page=1&pp=5

07-06-2007, 11:46 PM
Denisebme said:
Yeah. I don't even know Mike and I found myself on the wrong end of one of his little schemes. You remember the one where they were going around trying to convince people that a test we all knew existed didn't exist, and that a lab I KNEW had run my tests didn't really run them?
Oh yeah, add to that the fact that he said he wasn't going to breed his KNOWN POSITIVE AV dragons, and yet now he's selling the babies from his KNOWN POSITIVE parents.
I'll bet I still have the email where he apologizes to me for running around calling me a liar behind my back based on absolutely nothing, boy bet he was red when he found out that I was the one telling the truth.
"Good Guy", a definite NOT!
Click to expand...

Does this count too? From just 4 days ago on the BOI..
 
whiskersmom said:
Don't you have a responsibility to those babies that you send off with people who paid you money for them?
I'm sure all these beardies that have Adeno and are not doing good, started out showing no symptoms while still in the care of their breeder. How else were they able to sell them?
This isn't a new subject (although it is the wrong thread), when you decided to go into breeding Bearded Dragons, didn't it cross your mind to have your breeders tested?

I have a question for you Valley Dragons, if and when you have your beardies tested and if they all come back positive, will you 1) inform all potential buyers that they have Adeno and 2) will you stop breeding?
Click to expand...


Yes, I will inform my customers if my dragons turn out to be adenovirus positive. Will I stop breeding? If I continue to produce healthy animals, then no - I see no reason to stop breeding. If I were to have mass die-offs or unexplained illness and problems with my dragons - then of course I would stop breeding.

Jamie
 
Valley Dragons said:
Yes, I will inform my customers if my dragons turn out to be adenovirus positive. Will I stop breeding? If I continue to produce healthy animals, then no - I see no reason to stop breeding. If I were to have mass die-offs or unexplained illness and problems with my dragons - then of course I would stop breeding.

Jamie
Click to expand...

So thats a yes that you will be selling "healthy" (in your personal experience) Adenovirus infected animals?
 
Valley Dragons said:
Yes, I will inform my customers if my dragons turn out to be adenovirus positive. Will I stop breeding? If I continue to produce healthy animals, then no - I see no reason to stop breeding. If I were to have mass die-offs or unexplained illness and problems with my dragons - then of course I would stop breeding.

Jamie
Click to expand...


That's my point...they all start out healthy, otherwise people wouldn't buy them...so no, you may not see massive die offs or sick babies. But your responsibilty should not stop there.
I have another question for you Valley Dragons, if you do know you have Adenovirus in your colony and you are still breeding and selling babies, if customers are calling you saying they are having health problems, would you stop breeding then?

Or, will you adopt the reasoning that there isn't any proof that the strain that causes symptoms can not be proven to have come from your facility? Like other's seem to be saying?
 
Mooing Tricycle said:
So thats a yes that you will be selling "healthy" (in your personal experience) Adenovirus infected animals?
Click to expand...

Well, they have not tested positive yet, but if they do - and as long as I have not had any problems, then yes, I will sell the babies. I encourage my customers to keep in contact with me so that I will know about any potential probmes, should something occur in the future.

Jamie
 
Valley Dragons said:
Yes, I will inform my customers if my dragons turn out to be adenovirus positive. Will I stop breeding? If I continue to produce healthy animals, then no - I see no reason to stop breeding. If I were to have mass die-offs or unexplained illness and problems with my dragons - then of course I would stop breeding.

Jamie
Click to expand...

So Jamie you did not read or do you not understand what it means when the Dr said

DO NOT Breed Known Positve Dragons and sell them.

go re read the report from the university of flordia from Dr Jacobson
 
Dennis Hultman said:

Honestly, from an outside perspective, I think there have been many statements made on many fronts that would appear to be problematic if a legal route were taken. That’s a dangerous area to venture and once it starts that direction you never know where it might lead you. Just an opinion.
Common sense and passions about what is right and wrong don't always fall inline with the legal system.
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Dennis,
I completely respect what you're saying, but everyones position just in life is different. My life is very public and has little to do with Bearded Dragons off of this forum. Most people who would do the research to find out who I am are not going to read through 250+ posts to figure out who is telling the truth on a reptile forum because they have no interest in reptiles.
If this were just about the beardies, my position would be clear, buy from me and I'll send you anything you want, even take you with me to the vet if thats the only thing that would make you feel better.
Its not about that with me, and it never has been. I'm a real person with a real life and a real job outside of all this, and I work with people who know how to use google. Its about protecting a reputation that I have spent 20 years building and I'm not going to let anyone damage it for sport. Ain't going to happen.
I know I can be stubborn, and I'm aware that hasn't made this issue any easier, but I have honestly felt that the tactics used surrounding this whole issue have been pure bullying for no reason then to get people to step into line, and its a line I have no desire to stand in.
 
mikey said:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92001&page=1&pp=5

07-06-2007, 11:46 PM

Does this count too? From just 4 days ago on the BOI..
Click to expand...

What problem do you have with that? Mike told me himself that his animals tested positive and he was shutting down his webpage and wasn't going to breed. He was very upset about it at the time.
I also have the email where he full on admitted that he was acting on false information when he was participating in the schemes going on behind the scenes. He actually issued an apology for it at the time.
In other words, I actually used the BOI the way it was intended. I used firsthand information based on my dealings with Mike and reported them HONESTLY instead of participating in a behind the scenes rumor mill and trying to hurt someone with rumor and inuendo.
 
http://www.rebeldragons.com/abc.php

"Our breeders have come back with both positive and negative results on the same dragon. We highly question the accuracy of the fecal testing due to these conflicting results. "

Is this what you were referring to?
 
Mike from Rebel Dragons has changed his website many times since Jan of this year he also has changed his position on adenovirus...

I have always checked Mike's web page as the information he was collecting contained on his web site was taken from other forums with out permission.

Yes it was on his site he tested positive and had quit breeding, put someone may have just convinced him to continue on breeding having a wait and see type attitude.

This attitude is what is making the dragons weaker and unhealthy. It is never good to breed a known positive dragon.. unless of course it is a means of sole income and they cannot or will not find other work. This applies to many and not just one person as a general comment.
 
So you are saying what he is currently stating on his website is a lie?

"Our breeders have come back with both positive and negative results on the same dragon. We highly question the accuracy of the fecal testing due to these conflicting results."

and this is the known truth..or slander?

"Oh yeah, add to that the fact that he said he wasn't going to breed his KNOWN POSITIVE AV dragons, and yet now he's selling the babies from his KNOWN POSITIVE parents."
 
So you are saying what he is currently stating on his website is a lie?

"Our breeders have come back with both positive and negative results on the same dragon. We highly question the accuracy of the fecal testing due to these conflicting results."

I have no idea who you are trying in insight Jean but just for shits & giggles I will say that it is quite possible to have both a positive and a negative em test in a dragon.. See people test them .. then they are told it is positive

which it is POSITIVE !! it is never a negative and the tests mean nothing as you may want to imply. Once positive always a positive it is not reversed.. The animal may have not been shedding the virus at this time is all.

See I do know somethings about this part of the virus and I also have first hand daily experience with it.
 
OH yeah and it has been said over and over again not to breed adeno positive dragons

I forgot to say people may test and then re test hoping that is is wrong...

So if you test and it is positive then you retest and it is negative = a positive adenovirus dragon who it just not shedding at that time and should never be breed.

Then comes the part .. the test is not accurate or the testing is wrong you are only fooling yourselves if you continue to think like that

Continuing to Question the tests results are Not right because Adenovirus cannot be reversed if it was shown as a positive at all the animal is a carrier of the virus for life.
 
mikey said:
So you are saying what he is currently stating on his website is a lie?

"Our breeders have come back with both positive and negative results on the same dragon. We highly question the accuracy of the fecal testing due to these conflicting results."

and this is the known truth..or slander?

"Oh yeah, add to that the fact that he said he wasn't going to breed his KNOWN POSITIVE AV dragons, and yet now he's selling the babies from his KNOWN POSITIVE parents."
Click to expand...

Its the truth, as reported by Mike back in April. The fact that he is contradicting himself now is not my concern.
So now I have to ask, what's your agenda in all this? You don't appear to be a breeder, you don't really seem to be here for any purpose that one can put a finger on, so I have to ask why you're so invested in attacking people just because they disagree with the party line?
 
I have a question. It would appear to me that just about every breeder posting here, along with all of the larger breeders, have adenovirus in their colonies. Well, except for Denise. So, what some of you are suggesting is that all of these bearded dragon breeders discontinue breeding their dragons. Is that correct?
 
KelliH said:
I have a question. It would appear to me that just about every breeder posting here, along with all of the larger breeders, have adenovirus in their colonies. Well, except for Denise. So, what some of you are suggesting is that all of these bearded dragon breeders discontinue breeding their dragons. Is that correct?
Click to expand...

It's all a conspiracy so that Calidragons can take over and rule the bearded dragon world....mwah-ha-ha-ha!!!

Just, kidding...I couldn't resist...

Jamie :)
 
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