about siklback and their husbandry

[Denisebme]

Maybe I missed it somewhere in this post but is this kind of the same as the derma ball (without scales)?

It's probably a similar mutation.
Here is a Link that gives a description of a wild caught, mostly scaleless snake. Pay close attention to how the skin is described.

 

[Denisebme]

From another researcher:
Soft epidermis of a scaleless snake lacks beta-keratin

M. Toni, L. Alibardi

Department of Biology, University of Bologna, Bologna, Italy

European Journal of Histochemist 2007; vol. 51 issue 2 (Apr-Jun):145-152

Beta-keratins are responsible for the mechanical resistance of scales in reptiles. In a scaleless crotalus snake (Crotalus atrox), large areas of the skin are completely devoid of scales, and the skin appears delicate and wrinkled. The epidermis of this snake has been assessed for the presence of beta-keratin by immunocytochemistry and immunoblotting using an antibody against chicken scale beta-keratin. This antibody recognizes beta-keratins in normal snake scales with molecular weights of 15-18 kDa and isoelectric points at 6.8, 7.5, 8.3 and 9.4. This indicates that beta-keratins of the stratum corneum are mainly basic proteins, so may interact with cytokeratins of the epidermis, most of which appear acidic (isoelectric points 4.5-5.5). A beta-layer and beta-keratin immunoreactivity are completely absent in moults of the scaleless mutant, and the corneous layer comprises a multi-layered alpha-layer covered by a flat oberhautchen. In conclusion, the present study shows that a lack of beta-keratins is correlated with the loss of scales and mechanical protection in the skin of this mutant snake.

Key words: snake; scaleless; beta-keratin; ultrastructure; immunocytochemistry, immunoblotting.

Correspondence: Lorenzo Alibardi,
Dipartimento di Biologia Evoluzionistica Sperimentale, University of Bologna, via Selmi, 3
40126, Bologna, Italy
Tel: +39.051.209.4257.
E-mail: [email protected]

Paper accepted on February 28, 2007

 

[KelliH]

There is also nothing to indicate that they have the same quality of life.

Yes there is: the person that knows more about them than anyone else has said so. The only person to ever hatch one out has stated as much.

 

[Tere Salazar]

From another researcher:
Soft epidermis of a scaleless snake lacks beta-keratin

M. Toni, L. Alibardi

Department of Biology, University of Bologna, Bologna, Italy

European Journal of Histochemist 2007; vol. 51 issue 2 (Apr-Jun):145-152

Beta-keratins are responsible for the mechanical resistance of scales in reptiles. In a scaleless crotalus snake (Crotalus atrox), large areas of the skin are completely devoid of scales, and the skin appears delicate and wrinkled. The epidermis of this snake has been assessed for the presence of beta-keratin by immunocytochemistry and immunoblotting using an antibody against chicken scale beta-keratin. This antibody recognizes beta-keratins in normal snake scales with molecular weights of 15-18 kDa and isoelectric points at 6.8, 7.5, 8.3 and 9.4. This indicates that beta-keratins of the stratum corneum are mainly basic proteins, so may interact with cytokeratins of the epidermis, most of which appear acidic (isoelectric points 4.5-5.5). A beta-layer and beta-keratin immunoreactivity are completely absent in moults of the scaleless mutant, and the corneous layer comprises a multi-layered alpha-layer covered by a flat oberhautchen. In conclusion, the present study shows that a lack of beta-keratins is correlated with the loss of scales and mechanical protection in the skin of this mutant snake.

Key words: snake; scaleless; beta-keratin; ultrastructure; immunocytochemistry, immunoblotting.

Correspondence: Lorenzo Alibardi,
Dipartimento di Biologia Evoluzionistica Sperimentale, University of Bologna, via Selmi, 3
40126, Bologna, Italy
Tel: +39.051.209.4257.
E-mail: [email protected]

Paper accepted on February 28, 2007

Sorry...just couldn't help myself.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Yes there is: the person that knows more about them than anyone else has said so. The only person to ever hatch one out has stated as much.

Yes, he stated as much according to what HIS husbandry standards are. There is quite a difference between what he does and what most of us do.

 

[Denisebme]

Yes there is: the person that knows more about them than anyone else has said so. The only person to ever hatch one out has stated as much.

Google is a great tool, and before I said anything on this issue I actually took the time to simply look up scaleless reptiles and found a lot of controversy on pretty much every mutant ever created.
In snakes, the chief complaint was the high husbandry standards required to care for an animal with such delicate skin. Those aren't my words, those belong to someone on an Australian forum that actually cared for one.
There is a big difference between a snake with no scales and a Bearded Dragon with no scales, Bearded Dragons bite and scratch when they breed.
It really shouldn't be a shock that there is controversy on US forums related to this mutant since the controversy can be found all over the place where this is discussed, with the same issues coming up and the same concerns being raised.

 

[KelliH]

Yes, he stated as much according to what HIS husbandry standards are. There is quite a difference between what he does and what most of us do.

I'm not understanding your point and where you are going with that. The original breeder of these animals should know more than anyone else how they behave. I'm not quite understanding how his husbandry standards have anything to do with whether these animals have the same quality of life as a normal bearded dragon. If you could explain why it would help me to better understand the point you were trying to make.

 

[Tere Salazar]

I'm not understanding your point and where you are going with that. The original breeder of these animals should know more than anyone else how they behave. I'm not quite understanding how his husbandry standards have anything to do with whether these animals have the same quality of life as a normal bearded dragon. If you could explain why it would help me to better understand the point you were trying to make.

You'd really be able to understand the point I was trying to make if the point I was trying to make in any way related to what you stated. I'm sorry. I totally misread what you said, and didn't realize it until after I had replied.

 

[KelliH]

Google a great tool, and before I said anything on this issue I actually took the time to simply look up scaleless reptiles and found a lot of controversy on pretty much every mutant ever created.

You are so right, Google is a fantastic tool. I did a simple Google search as well, and read some actual published scientific articles on scaleless reptiles, (not someones opinion posted on a message board).

Here is one on evaporative water loss in scaleless water snakes-
Scaleless Water Snakes Publication

The above referenced article states that cutaneous water loss is no greater in scaleless reptiles than in normal reptiles.

Here is another scientific article that was published in Copeia. The subject of this study was a scaleless Pituophis (Gopher Snake) and this particular study showed that there is no difference in water loss and heat transfer between scaleless and normally scaled reptiles. This article states that the snake in question behaved completely normally: it moved normally, fed normally and defecated normally. The article goes on to state that "The present study suggests that the commonly held views regarding the physiological
role of the scales of reptiles may be incorrect.".

While I was Googling looking for scientific data I came across this page:

http://www.herper.com/strange/scalelesspics.html

This page focuses on a scaleless Texas Rat Snake owned by Chad Arment and Greg Watkins-Colwell. They state that "scaleless snakes are no more difficult to keep than normal snakes, and shedding has never been a problem. Some lines may have inbreeding which can create their own set of problems, but I am not aware of any difficulties which can be traced directly to scalelessness.".

I have to get back to my gecko room now, and I couldn't find much else of value (ie. facts) to add to the discussion. However, my husband has an extensive herp library that includes books and also a whole bunch of scientific journals (and I mean a bunch, he has been collecting this stuff for 30 years!). He also has access to other information via the Zoological institution he is employed with. Anyway, I am going to do some research on this topic, it interests me a great deal. I am in no way saying that anyone is right or wrong, all I am doing is stating my opinions and trying to learn more about this via scientific studies and facts, rather than unsubstantiated opinions. None of this is personal at all, it's just an interesting debate.

Ok, gecko room, here I come.

 

[KelliH]

You'd really be able to understand the point I was trying to make if the point I was trying to make in any way related to what you stated. I'm sorry. I totally misread what you said, and didn't realize it until after I had replied.

Ok, I just figured I had a brain fart or something. It happens with some frequency as I get older.

 

[Denisebme]

You are so right, Google is a fantastic tool. I did a simple Google search as well, and read some actual published scientific articles on scaleless reptiles, (not someones opinion posted on a message board).

Here is one on evaporative water loss in scaleless water snakes-
Scaleless Water Snakes Publication

The above referenced article states that cutaneous water loss is no greater in scaleless reptiles than in normal reptiles.

Here is another scientific article that was published in Copeia. The subject of this study was a scaleless Pituophis (Gopher Snake) and this particular study showed that there is no difference in water loss and heat transfer between scaleless and normally scaled reptiles. This article states that the snake in question behaved completely normally: it moved normally, fed normally and defecated normally. The article goes on to state that "The present study suggests that the commonly held views regarding the physiological
role of the scales of reptiles may be incorrect.".

While I was Googling looking for scientific data I came across this page:

http://www.herper.com/strange/scalelesspics.html

This page focuses on a scaleless Texas Rat Snake owned by Chad Arment and Greg Watkins-Colwell. They state that "scaleless snakes are no more difficult to keep than normal snakes, and shedding has never been a problem. Some lines may have inbreeding which can create their own set of problems, but I am not aware of any difficulties which can be traced directly to scalelessness.".

I have to get back to my gecko room now, and I couldn't find much else of value (ie. facts) to add to the discussion. However, my husband has an extensive herp library that includes books and also a whole bunch of scientific journals (and I mean a bunch, he has been collecting this stuff for 30 years!). He also has access to other information via the Zoological institution he is employed with. Anyway, I am going to do some research on this topic, it interests me a great deal. I am in no way saying that anyone is right or wrong, all I am doing is stating my opinions and trying to learn more about this via scientific studies and facts, rather than unsubstantiated opinions. None of this is personal at all, it's just an interesting debate.

Ok, gecko room, here I come.

I've read the article on water loss, and it does not appear to be a concern, at least not with snakes.
My concern has always been primarily with breeding them and what happens if one gets bit or hit with a claw. There is a certain amount of justification in saying lets just wait and see what happens to them when its time to breed them, but it sits very uneasily with me because if the skin is as described, I can just see the carnage.
I really don't take this kind of debate personally. Its a conversation that needs to be had, and its actually quite heartening that its going on around the world right now

 

[Valley Dragons]

That is exactly right. One says the skin is like an eyelid or pinkie mouse. Would you want a beardie biting an eyelid? I sure wouldn't. And I've seen what they can do to a pinkie mouse with one bite.

Then shortly after concern was raised over this particular issue, the story was changed to, no, the skin is tough like a normal beardies, only no scales.

WHICH IS IT?

I'm not sure if maybe I'm reading something different than everyone else, but from what I understood, the mutants require a higher humidity and frequent mistings. I would consider that specialized care for a bearded dragon, particularly when increased humidity can cause other health issues.

Ill do my best to answer many of the questions that were posed to us - but I do not have answers to all of them.

We own one female Silkback that we imported from Italy in Oct. 2006.

Our adult animals are housed in melamine enclosures with 2 fluorescent bulbs (one is a 5.0) and a low watt basking bulb (15-50 watt depending on the season). Our cages have also been modified to allow for increased airflow and the humidity in our house runs usually around 50%. All lights come on in the morning and due to the low wattage basking bulbs being used, the cages warm up slowly - as does the room temperature. Anywhere between noon-4pm we usually shut off our heat lights. Since the ambient temperature in the room is higher and the fluorescent are fairly close (approx. 8 inches) to the animal - if they choose, they can remain on the basking area and maintain a higher body temp. Our adult dragons respond well to an average body temperatures of around 90-92 - with an occasional peek of 96 range. We choose to gradually warm our dragons to a peek temperature and then slowly allow their temperatures to drop back down to ambient - this works well for us. Using this method also allows for a slight increase of overall humidity in the cage - we do not bump the humidity in the cage by spraying. In general, the cage humidity is usually slightly lower than the room humidity.

This is very close to the same set up we have raised our silkback in. So when her husbandry is compared to the way many people tend to house their dragons - there are variations. Would we suggest using a high output UVB source? Nope. But we don’t recommend them anyway.

Bearded Dragons and Frilled Lizards

Does allowing our dragons to bask at high temperatures for a long duration every day actually promote health? Is this natural? In the USA, prolonged, higher heat is usually used - causing drier conditions. So when we say that we offer “slightly increased humidity” it is in comparison to popular husbandry practices.

Bearded dragons do not need a 110 basking temperature to properly digest their food. Our dragons digest their food and poo just fine at lower temperatures. Could you keep a Silkback at a higher temperature and avoid problems? I don’t know. There was a study done on heat transfer which compared a scaleless gopher snake to a normally scaled gopher snake and not much of a difference was noted between the 2. http://compphys.bio.uci.edu/bennett/pubs/4.pdf

“Optimal” care/husbandry for bearded dragons (as a whole) is based upon opinion. Optimal care varies with the individual dragons needs/preferences and it is our job to provide what in our opinion is optimal care. We feel we have done this across the board with all of our dragons - those with and the one without scales…

As for the lack of scales making her too fragile to act like a normal beardie without causing herself injury - No. She is not falling apart. Yes, her skin is soft and smooth and not covered in scales, therefore more fragile than that of a scaled animal. She acts like any other bearded dragon and has not accidentally caused a skin tear yet. She still watches everything going on in the room, chases her crickets and roaches, splashes around and blows up like a bubble in water to float.

We have not bred her and therefore cannot comment on how the skin has held up through a breeding season. But she was caged with another animal when younger - and received a bite on her tail. The bite was a good one and broke her skin - but she healed just fine and the bite mark is barely noticeable. There were no infections involved. Based on this incident, one would assume that physical breeding could cause harm - especially if the male is aggressive. ((There are other ways of fertilizing a female that offer no direct contact - this has been proven by many. Plus, a Silk does not need to be bred to create another Silk.))

Her skin, when shedding is thinner than a normal dragons shed and does not seem to have the elasticity of scaled shed. Close attention must be given to the skin around the digits and tail to prevent rolling or constriction like Seamus said… During her shedding process, we will occasionally dampen a paper towel and leave it in her cage.
Another concern of ours was the pads of her hands and feet. She has not formed, and probably cannot form, any calluses in this area and therefore pressure sores were a concern. We have seen none as of yet.

The physiological aspect of scales concerning water retention was also addressed in the gopher snake study. ((Im sorry, but the only information I have found in reference to scalelessness is in snakes.)) http://compphys.bio.uci.edu/bennett/pubs/4.pdf
Our silkback is not dehydrated nor does she drink much when offered water. When she is soaked in water for a bath, she does not “prune up” like our hands do.

Differentiation of the epidermis during scale formation in embryos of lizard
( http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1467751&blobtype=pdf ) is another article that is loaded with information on scales and their formation.

It seems to me that Ruby’s skin does not complete the folding process… nor I suppose, does the keratinization process finish - Whatever it is exactly that happened, it has not effected anything else that we have noticed. She is now 17 inches, has nails and teeth and her skin is not overly sensitive to touch when handling. She is a happy, outwardly healthy bearded dragon - minus scales.

We are not producing Silkback dragons and are at close to 2 years away from even being able to do so. We haven’t even gone through a whole cycle with our female silk. We have quite some time between now and then to continue with our observations.

Hope this addresses some of the concerns.
Rob & Vickie

So...because the Dachiu's did not make enough effort by a few people's standards to fully and completely explain a brand new project - one that is not even for sale to the public at this time - we are going to call them LIARS? That is ridiculous! They came here to this forum to better explain...and yet no one wants to REALLY hear anything that they have to say about these animals. No, its more fun to accuse someone of switching their stories. The more I read what is going on here, the madder I get. Half the people here are an uninformed bunch of, uh - we'll say "silly people" for niceness sake. This is disgusting to me.

Jamie

 

[whiskersmom]

I think alot of us are going by the Dachiu's original description of this mutation...."like that of a pinkie mouse or an eyelid."
No matter what else you can say about it, health wise or husbandry, if it's skin is like they described and I can't believe they would be wrong as they own one, then to breed her is going to be something terrible. It will tear her up. Comparing a clutch mate's nip to an adult male in mating is absolutely ridiculous.

And I'm sorry, waiting to strike out against this project until they are ready to sell them (which by the Dachiu's account is about 2 years away) is also ridiculous.


So sorry that we "silly people" are disgusting you but in my opinion purposely creating bearded dragons to not have scales is what is disgusting.

 

[puppytoes72]

dachiu site: "

Care for the "Silkback" dragons DOES vary slightly from the general care of a regularly scaled bearded dragon. While her diet has remained the same as our other dragons, we have adjusted her husbandry by lowering her basking temperatures to a high of the upper 90s, with restricted access to long periods of actual basking time. The combination of a regular fluorescent bulb and a ReptiSun 5.0 are used for UV lighting and slightly increased humidity.

The skin of the "Silkback" dragon is similar to that of a pinkie mouse ((or your eye lid)) in texture and fragility. Close care must be given to prevent injury and encourage a healthy shedding process. "

 

[whiskersmom]

Valley Dragons wrote:

Half the people here are an uninformed bunch of, uh - we'll say "silly people"

Exactly how informed are you? Where or should I say who are you getting your info from? What makes you think you are more enlightened then the rest of us? Just because someone who has a stake in this venture has put forth some theories and trying to disguise them as facts doesn't make you more informed. It just might make you more gullible.

This animal has no scales. This animal was not discovered, it was created. How can you think that the more responsible bearded dragon owner would accept this?

 

[puppytoes72]

Valley Dragons wrote:


Exactly how informed are you? Where or should I say who are you getting your info from? What makes you think you are more enlightened then the rest of us? Just because someone who has a stake in this venture has put forth some theories and trying to disguise them as facts doesn't make you more informed. It just might make you more gullible.

This animal has no scales. This animal was not discovered, it was created. How can you think that the more responsible bearded dragon owner would accept this?

great post!

 

[Valley Dragons]

Valley Dragons wrote:


Exactly how informed are you? Where or should I say who are you getting your info from? What makes you think you are more enlightened then the rest of us? Just because someone who has a stake in this venture has put forth some theories and trying to disguise them as facts doesn't make you more informed. It just might make you more gullible.

This animal has no scales. This animal was not discovered, it was created. How can you think that the more responsible bearded dragon owner would accept this?

I've been on the phone asking questions to one of the two people in the world that own this morph - so yes, I DO consider myself more informed on the subject. Who are YOU to assume that you know better than the person who actually owns this animal? Who are YOU to assume that they are liars? And once again, we are back to that little word...ASSume...

Jamie

 

[puppytoes72]

I've been on the phone asking questions to one of the two people in the world that own this morph - so yes, I DO consider myself more informed on the subject. Who are YOU to assume that you know better than the person who actually owns this animal? Who are YOU to assume that they are liars? And once again, we are back to that little word...ASSume...

Jamie

how much is she paying you to speak on her behalf ? what's funny is we are actually going by HER description on HER site

 

[Tere Salazar]

Ok, I just figured I had a brain fart or something. It happens with some frequency as I get older.

No, it was my brain fart...and a pretty large one, at that! And older? I'm not sure what you mean. I'm only 22...if I started counting backwards many years ago!

 

[whiskersmom]

I've been on the phone asking questions to one of the two people in the world that own this morph - so yes, I DO consider myself more informed on the subject. Who are YOU to assume that you know better than the person who actually owns this animal? Who are YOU to assume that they are liars? And once again, we are back to that little word...ASSume...

Jamie

I don't claim to be an expert and I'm not assuming anything.

They have no scales. Fact or fiction?
They have skin like that of a pinkie mouse or eyelid. Fact or fiction?

You claim to be more informed because you are talking to the person who has a stake in this. It never crossed your mind that maybe, just maybe the whole theory is being glossed over? Do you honestly think that these animals were shipped to the U.S. out of the goodness of Alessandro's heart? Do you honestly think that if realized that this was a big mistake, this breeder would come out and say, 'ya know, my bad.....but I guess I'll just suck it up and move on because I want to keep the good reputation of being an honest, ethical and caring breeder.'
You think, after the Denise fiasco this person isn't above lying? I'm sorry, but I guess I have to repeat puppytoes, how much you gettin' paid?
I am not out right accusing anyone of lying but I'm not naive enough to think they are above it. Actions do speak louder then words at times and Dachiu's past actions are screaming at me right now.