about siklback and their husbandry

[puppytoes72]

ty,but i do not need to heed anyone's advice when it comes to speaking my mind.we were all newbies at one time but i have researched 3-4 hours a day, everyday, for the past 9 months.everynight i am reading up on bearded dragons and once again i will say IT DOESN'T TAKE AN EXPERT TO KNOW THAT INBREEDING IS GOING ON HERE

 

[Denisebme]

That is not what I've been trying to say....have you not seen this so called Bearded Dragon??? IT DOESN'T HAVE SCALES!!!! That would be like someone "line breeding" you and your sister so that your children can be born without skin. When have I ever brought up snakes or geckos? If I have, it was in a general statement. But I will definitely go on record stating that I believe that it's against the laws of nature for relatives to procreate. Period. Now if that makes me a person who doesn't belong in this thread, oh well, sucks to be you....you'll just have to ignore me.
While it is true, I'm not a geneticist or a biologist but neither are any of you. Just because you have been breeding in this manner doesn't mean it is ok or ethical.
I may not have the experience in line breeding but I do have basic intelligence and you insinuating that I or Michele have nothing to bring to the table is wrong. You just don't like what we have to say. And Dennis, I have spoken to breeders that have said that this isn't how they would conduct business. Not every breeder believes in line breeding.....they're just a little smarter then me in coming here.

Inbreeding, which where I come from means 1st or 2nd generation pairing like sibling/sibling crosses, Parent/child, grandparent/grandchild, uncle/niece etc. I always think is wrong. Linebreeding is 3rd or 4th generation pairing, and if done correctly, this can even strengthen a line. There is a great article about it here
What I have serious issues with are people who are breeding to exploit a genetic trait that might have a serious impact on the animal, like the eyeless turtles seen here in an advertisement and bearded dragons without scales.
I can understand why people are passionate about this issue, it doesn't matter who the breeder is or who else might be involved.
Dennis- I'm sorry that your ethics have ever been called into question. I may not always agree with you 100%, but you're definitely one of the good guys.

 

[fstop2100a]

guess the way some people act in this forum that inbreeding has affected the human race in the area of common sense and metal capacity. What have we here? A group that has somehow morphed into having less brain power then the reptiles. I am deleting this forum from my email as I have better things to do then write or read this kind of ilk-ed literature...

 

[Tere Salazar]

I understood his comment completely, and did not see it as aimed at you, however hard one tries to make it seem that way. Dennis is nothing but Upstanding, and he does not just make remarks to make them without the facts.

I saw it as sarcasam at best, to a newbie owner trying to get their foot in on something they do not even fully understand. Assumptions dont fly well here at fauna, and ive learned my lesson at that. others should heed that advice

Yes, I now know that. After it hit me upside the head like a ton of bricks, I PMed Dennis apologizing. I have been super emotional, and have had attacks coming from every direction, not that it excuses my behavior to Dennis. Someone very wise once told me to never ASSume, and I did just that and proved that very wise someone right.

Dennis, I understand what you are saying that line breeding is done all the time, to establish and prove out lines. I also understand that line breeding can be done correctly and incorrectly.

I think the main concern as far as the inbreeding that took place to create these animals is that the gene pool for dragons is already so small that it just can't be good to add to that problem.

I think the other concern is that this isn't a simple color morph. This is much more on the lines of a deformity, and people are trying to exploit that.

This isn't so much about what everybody else may do, it's that some of us believe doing these things is immoral.

 

[puppytoes72]

i just have one more thing to say.do all of you really believe how closely they were bred? look how long it took to get an answer out of them.it was all word games.a certain person has been proved to be a liar in the past.thats all folks

 

[Seamus Haley]

While it is true, I'm not a geneticist or a biologist but neither are any of you.

You might want to re-evaluate that one, this site has a pretty diverse member base and there are a solid number who do one or both of those professionally and quite a few more who've got all that fancy book schoolin' and the sheepskin to prove it... that just don't generate an income off it.

 

[Denisebme]

You might want to re-evaluate that one, this site has a pretty diverse member base and there are a solid number who do one or both of those professionally and quite a few more who've got all that fancy book schoolin' and the sheepskin to prove it... that just don't generate an income off it.

I think she was specifically referencing the people that have been active on this thread.

 

[Denisebme]

I should add here that this is a conversation that is going on in the bearded dragon community all over the world. If you Google "silkback bearded dragons", you'll see that the people who belong to this forum aren't the only ones a bit disturbed by this development.
On one forum, I actually saw one guy say that all American breeders are crazy for doing things like this, and this morph wasn't created by an American breeder.

 

[KelliH]

But I will definitely go on record stating that I believe that it's against the laws of nature for relatives to procreate.

Do you believe that in the wild reptiles avoid breeding with relatives?

 

[Valley Dragons]

It seems to me that people really, really, REALLY want to find fault with the silkback. So far, all I see is opinions. Some like this morph, and some don't. But so far, there are no FACTS to back up the disgust for this animal. All the questions that can be answered have been answered at this time. So far it seems that the silkbacks are healthy and do not suffer undue distress from their lack of scales. As far as the gene pool being significantly affected by this new morph - I highly doubt it. So can't we all just accept each other's OPINIONS and quit bashing those who have different views from us? Because at this point, I don't see anything factual to fight about.

Jamie

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Puppytoes, if you are going to call the OP allessandro a liar, do it in plain english. So far he's answered a TON of questions, which some folks continue to RE-ask, apparently ignoring the answers which ahve been given already.
Again, line-breeding 4th cousins is not inbreeding. It has nothing to do with brother-sister breeding. It's not even 4th cousins.. it's fourth cousins 3 generations removed. Yes they are related, but then so are all humans if you want to go there. At some point nearly every morph was a single or a very small group. This includes color mutations.
The line breeding is not really a concern since it's been stated how far apart the pairings have been. To continue to state it's in-breeding and referance "breeding you to your sister" is false and misleading.
The continued referance to human breeding, especially stating Down's Syndrome children shouldn't breed, is also not relevant to the discussion, which is SUPPOSED to be about Silkbacks and their husbandry and origins.
If you don't LIKE a new morph or mutation, just say that. There's a lot of people who despise albino ball pythons, and they have every right to say they don't like them. But try to stick to facts.
The questions about "Well you haven't stated the long-term effects of this mutation" is also moot. They don't know, because they haven't gotten that far. I'm sure that the first pastel ball python has it's detractors too.
The physical possibilty that it has physical difficulties is the valid point. Can a bearded dragon without scales live in a fairly normal environment and bask, and eat, and grow, and breed? So far the answers seem to be yes from allessandro. He keeps all his dragons at a lower basking temp, so we won't know if the silkback can also be kept at the higher temps that U.S. dragons are commonly kept at. Not until someone keeps them at that temp to see.
Folks keep saying that the breeders are not biologists, and are not geneists(sp?), well... neither are 99% of the reptile breeders out there.
The adeno debate still has nothing to do with the silkback husbandry. Unless you are asking if the silkbacks have been tested themselves, it has nothing to do with this thread. OR it shouldn't. Past actions from someone that is affliated with the OP has nothing to do with silkback husbandry.
I'd really like to see a thread stay on topic long enough to get more information that everyone says they want. Of course, I'd also like to see a thread where questions are not re-asked after being answered and where folks ignore the facts stated by people who have the animals in hand.
It may be that the keratin is being processed perfectly by all of the dragon's body EXCEPT the skin. Maybe their livers will shut down at age 3 years. We don't know. We might find out, if we can keep an open discussion.
Theresa

 

[Valley Dragons]

Puppytoes, if you are going to call the OP allessandro a liar, do it in plain english. So far he's answered a TON of questions, which some folks continue to RE-ask, apparently ignoring the answers which ahve been given already.
Again, line-breeding 4th cousins is not inbreeding. It has nothing to do with brother-sister breeding. It's not even 4th cousins.. it's fourth cousins 3 generations removed. Yes they are related, but then so are all humans if you want to go there. At some point nearly every morph was a single or a very small group. This includes color mutations.
The line breeding is not really a concern since it's been stated how far apart the pairings have been. To continue to state it's in-breeding and referance "breeding you to your sister" is false and misleading.
The continued referance to human breeding, especially stating Down's Syndrome children shouldn't breed, is also not relevant to the discussion, which is SUPPOSED to be about Silkbacks and their husbandry and origins.
If you don't LIKE a new morph or mutation, just say that. There's a lot of people who despise albino ball pythons, and they have every right to say they don't like them. But try to stick to facts.
The questions about "Well you haven't stated the long-term effects of this mutation" is also moot. They don't know, because they haven't gotten that far. I'm sure that the first pastel ball python has it's detractors too.
The physical possibilty that it has physical difficulties is the valid point. Can a bearded dragon without scales live in a fairly normal environment and bask, and eat, and grow, and breed? So far the answers seem to be yes from allessandro. He keeps all his dragons at a lower basking temp, so we won't know if the silkback can also be kept at the higher temps that U.S. dragons are commonly kept at. Not until someone keeps them at that temp to see.
Folks keep saying that the breeders are not biologists, and are not geneists(sp?), well... neither are 99% of the reptile breeders out there.
The adeno debate still has nothing to do with the silkback husbandry. Unless you are asking if the silkbacks have been tested themselves, it has nothing to do with this thread. OR it shouldn't. Past actions from someone that is affliated with the OP has nothing to do with silkback husbandry.
I'd really like to see a thread stay on topic long enough to get more information that everyone says they want. Of course, I'd also like to see a thread where questions are not re-asked after being answered and where folks ignore the facts stated by people who have the animals in hand.
It may be that the keratin is being processed perfectly by all of the dragon's body EXCEPT the skin. Maybe their livers will shut down at age 3 years. We don't know. We might find out, if we can keep an open discussion.
Theresa

Very well put.

Jamie

 

[Denisebme]

Puppytoes, if you are going to call the OP allessandro a liar, do it in plain english. So far he's answered a TON of questions, which some folks continue to RE-ask, apparently ignoring the answers which ahve been given already.
Again, line-breeding 4th cousins is not inbreeding. It has nothing to do with brother-sister breeding. It's not even 4th cousins.. it's fourth cousins 3 generations removed. Yes they are related, but then so are all humans if you want to go there. At some point nearly every morph was a single or a very small group. This includes color mutations.
The line breeding is not really a concern since it's been stated how far apart the pairings have been. To continue to state it's in-breeding and referance "breeding you to your sister" is false and misleading.
The continued referance to human breeding, especially stating Down's Syndrome children shouldn't breed, is also not relevant to the discussion, which is SUPPOSED to be about Silkbacks and their husbandry and origins.
If you don't LIKE a new morph or mutation, just say that. There's a lot of people who despise albino ball pythons, and they have every right to say they don't like them. But try to stick to facts.
The questions about "Well you haven't stated the long-term effects of this mutation" is also moot. They don't know, because they haven't gotten that far. I'm sure that the first pastel ball python has it's detractors too.
The physical possibilty that it has physical difficulties is the valid point. Can a bearded dragon without scales live in a fairly normal environment and bask, and eat, and grow, and breed? So far the answers seem to be yes from allessandro. He keeps all his dragons at a lower basking temp, so we won't know if the silkback can also be kept at the higher temps that U.S. dragons are commonly kept at. Not until someone keeps them at that temp to see.
Folks keep saying that the breeders are not biologists, and are not geneists(sp?), well... neither are 99% of the reptile breeders out there.
The adeno debate still has nothing to do with the silkback husbandry. Unless you are asking if the silkbacks have been tested themselves, it has nothing to do with this thread. OR it shouldn't. Past actions from someone that is affliated with the OP has nothing to do with silkback husbandry.
I'd really like to see a thread stay on topic long enough to get more information that everyone says they want. Of course, I'd also like to see a thread where questions are not re-asked after being answered and where folks ignore the facts stated by people who have the animals in hand.
It may be that the keratin is being processed perfectly by all of the dragon's body EXCEPT the skin. Maybe their livers will shut down at age 3 years. We don't know. We might find out, if we can keep an open discussion.
Theresa

Actually, line breeding is a form of inbreeding, its just two generations out or more.
Since I was the one who mentioned downs syndrome, let me put it BACK into the proper context. What I said was that WE wouldn't intentionally breed Downs syndrome children, which means as adults we would do anything we could to prevent CREATING a child that intentionally HAS downs syndrome.
Most reputable turtle breeders would also NOT intentionally breed an eyeless turtle.
This is in fact a genetic mutation, like curly tails or crooked backs. To take the attitude that maybe they'll all just die at 3 years old from liver failure but in the meantime we can do whatever we want with them is, to put it bluntly, sort of distasteful to me.
To say that all the rest of the community has a right to do is say whether they like them or not doesn't fly either. The mutation in out in public now, and I have just as much a right to express my concerns as you have to express your lack of concern.
I also don't feel that my questions were ever answered to my satisfaction, nor do I expect them to be anytime soon.

 

[Tere Salazar]

To say that all the rest of the community has a right to do is say whether they like them or not doesn't fly either. The mutation in out in public now, and I have just as much a right to express my concerns as you have to express your lack of concern.

As do two other ladies that were posting on this thread. Regardless of anyone's years of experience or breeding status, everyone should be able to voice their opinions, period. There really is no need to belittle and humiliate anyone because their morals and beliefs are different than your own.

I personally do not agree with the inbreeding, no matter what politically correct term is used to identify it. That may be okay in other species, but we've all seen the effects of it in bearded dragons with a line of hypopastels that are weaker than weak, as well as translucents. There is no justification for inbreeding bearded dragons, particularly when the inbreeding is being done to further promote a genetic flaw.

I also do not agree with breeding to exploit a deformity, genetic flaw, mutation, whatever you want to call it. Yes, it would be like intentionally breeding two people with Down's Syndrome in an attempt to produce offspring with Down's Syndrome. This is not some simple color mutation.

And no, I don't think animals avoid procreating with relatives in the wild. I do not think however, that they would be repeatedly, forcibly paired with relatives in the wild, either. The difference is in our care, they are no longer in the wild. In our care, it is our job as their keepers to make sure they DON'T procreate with close relatives.

Further, although I agree that Adenovirus should be a separate issue, in this case, the issue does come into play. You've got an animal that obviously has at least one genetic defect, and you send it into a facility that admittedly has Adenovirus positive animals. Since that particular facility has made it clear that they have no intention of testing to know which animals do or do not have Adenovirus, the potential exists that this genetically flawed animal will come into contact with Adenovirus positive animals, particularly given the lines that are to said to be planned for crossing with the genetically flawed mutant, therefore creating an even weaker animal.

I do believe that was the longest run-on sentence I've ever made.

 

[Denisebme]

i just have one more thing to say.do all of you really believe how closely they were bred? look how long it took to get an answer out of them.it was all word games.a certain person has been proved to be a liar in the past.thats all folks

Michelle,
Don't let them run you off just because you have strong opinions. Yes, you were a Newbie, we all started there. Don't sweat it.
I also agree with you that honesty is a factor here, or lack of it, which is why I didn't read the "answer" that Vickie posted. I was specifically looking for answers from Alesandro because a) he is the creator of this mutant and b) he as the creator has had a lot more experience in dealing with them.
You have as much right to express your opinions on this issue as anyone else, and yours is JUST as valid as anyone elses.
That said, I have to say that Dennis Hultman is one of the most ethical people in this place. He's also very fair. When he says something, I listen.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Michelle,
Don't let them run you off just because you have strong opinions. Yes, you were a Newbie, we all started there. Don't sweat it.
I also agree with you that honesty is a factor here, or lack of it, which is why I didn't read the "answer" that Vickie posted. I was specifically looking for answers from Alesandro because a) he is the creator of this mutant and b) he as the creator has had a lot more experience in dealing with them.
You have as much right to express your opinions on this issue as anyone else, and yours is JUST as valid as anyone elses.
That said, I have to say that Dennis Hultman is one of the most ethical people in this place. He's also very fair. When he says something, I listen.

I appreciate your statement.

 

[FavorBoas]

Buon vedere un amico dall'Italia.
Alzate i draghi barbuti o li vendete? Vorrei vedere i vostri animali. Se lo vendete.
Thank you & Speranza parlare presto
Robbin

 

[FavorBoas]

pardon if my Italian is off...I don't think I know the word for dragon in Italian. I just wanted to comment on such a beautiful animal & was curious if you have a website where one can see the project of Silkback Dragons coming along and offspring.

 

[whiskersmom]

I want to clarify that I don't have any knowledge of snakes, geckos or any other reptiles other then the bearded dragons. I also want to say that I have no knowledge of responsible inbreeding, linebreeding or out crossing but I have seen the effects of what this "breeding" has produced. In my mind if line breeding is to be done, then shouldn't it be done to enhance or better the animal?
From what I've seen of these silk backs, the opposite has occurred and that is what's troubling me.
I will not assume that all breeders of different reptiles are doing this same thing....if I have in the past, please forgive me.
Breeding the dragons to purposely create dragons without scales is wrong in my opinion.

Please don't assume however, that just because I don't breed that my opinion's don't count....it's people like me that is going to see this animal and quite possibly have the same reaction. What we think does matter.

 

[Denisebme]

I want to clarify that I don't have any knowledge of snakes, geckos or any other reptiles other then the bearded dragons. I also want to say that I have no knowledge of responsible inbreeding, linebreeding or out crossing but I have seen the effects of what this "breeding" has produced. In my mind if line breeding is to be done, then shouldn't it be done to enhance or better the animal?
From what I've seen of these silk backs, the opposite has occurred and that is what's troubling me.
I will not assume that all breeders of different reptiles are doing this same thing....if I have in the past, please forgive me.
Breeding the dragons to purposely create dragons without scales is wrong in my opinion.

Please don't assume however, that just because I don't breed that my opinion's don't count....it's people like me that is going to see this animal and quite possibly have the same reaction. What we think does matter.

There are a lot of people in the world that feel exactly the same way, so not only do your opinions matter, from the forums I'd have to say its the majority opinion.
Like you, I don't see this little mutant as enhanced, I see it as defective, and normally reputable breeders would work to eliminate this from their lines not promote it.
While this animal is causing an uproar in the beardie community, eyeless turtles are causing an uproar with turtle people. What's the difference between them? None that I see, both are mutants because of a serious genetic defect, and both are causing concern in their respective communities.