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about siklback and their husbandry

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CurtisF said:
Bobby chose to leave Fauna a little while back. But, when his name is being thrown around, I don't think you can blame him for 'reading here under stealth mode', when he also said he isn't coming back several times due to other issues. I see no problem with it....What happened is there for everyone to see...


Agreed, and this thread is not about bobby reading the forum. and really, who gives two hoots if he is!? hes a free man, and its not like it dosnt happen with other threads, or other users. It is about The Silkbacks, and Adeno, since thats the way these things have taken course. and thats how its going to stay. :)
 
Dennis Hultman said:

Maybe, maybe not. New and mutant strains of viruses pop-up in every animal on this planet. Man isn't exempt either.


So what you are getting at is that, while the strain might ( or might not since we dont know yet) have been in the dragons, it might not have been harmful until now?

if that is what you mean, wouldnt it still be a bad idea to allow the virus to continue, since it could possibly mutate again?
 
Dennis Hultman said:
Thanks. Does anyone have a link handy about the specific cases reported in 96? Were they all in the US? Were those particular animals’ imports?

Dennis-

I know you're asking about 1996, but didn't know if this bit of information on the ones reported in 1997 would make any difference. I'm still looking for anything about 1996. I think my eyes are worn out today.

http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections+index-req-viewarticle-artid-47-page-1.html

Under Introduction:

My first case was in 1997 in a clutch of one month old Pogona vitticeps from Illinois, USA. Since that time there have been many cases diagnosed all over the country. An exponential increase in the cases in the past three years has been noted. Because, to this point, we have only been able to detect this disease after death using a postmortem pathology, little is known about the pathogenesis of the adenovirus in the bearded dragon. My work has focused on detecting the virus in the live animal and getting a better understanding of its pathogenesis.

This is from Dr. Wentz' paper.

Hope it helps some.
 
Originally Posted by whiskersmom
Also, if you think about how long the dragons have been here in the states, since the early 80's, without Adeno being discovered until '96 wouldn't that give a slight indication that the dragons didn't come here captive caught with the virus....16 years is a long time for people not to notice that our dragons were sick. Or could it be that they no longer could fight it off as their immune system had been weakened by continuous inbreeding?
Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman
Maybe, maybe not. New and mutant strains of viruses pop-up in every animal on this planet. Man isn't exempt either.
I might add that what we could identify as a cause of a illness changes constantly as our own knowledge increases. My guess would be that 16 years of experience would be considered a minuscule amount of time. In the last sixteen years look how we have advanced in the study and causes of diseases in humans. It is quite possible that early signs went without notice. Contributed to bad husbandry or a host of other causes.
 
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Im definitely suggesting that those who have the virus in their collection stop. And i definitely dont feel the least bit bad about expecting it either.

From what I have seen and heard, almost all dragon breeders have this in their collections. So is the entire (essentially) bearded dragon community of breeders supposed to cease production indefinitely or what?

If you saw a leopard gecko breeder selling sick animals, or animals that were known to have a virus that COULD be harmful to others colony's, would you want them breeding as well? even if it was a Mixed issue virus just like this?

There actually is a similar situation in leopard geckos, it's called crypto. Many people in the leo breeding community believe that virtually all leopard geckos carry this, and it only causes problems when the animals are under stress, such as when they are not cared for properly (bad husbandry) or when they are over bred. Back in the late 1990's crypto wiped out many, many people's collections and did kill a lot of leopard geckos. However, the geckos have built up some sort of tolerance for the disease and now crypto is rarely spoken of.

I personally think that adenovirus in dragons could be a similar situation. They all have it.
 
Saladragon said:
Dennis-

I know you're asking about 1996, but didn't know if this bit of information on the ones reported in 1997 would make any difference. I'm still looking for anything about 1996. I think my eyes are worn out today.

http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections+index-req-viewarticle-artid-47-page-1.html

Under Introduction:

My first case was in 1997 in a clutch of one month old Pogona vitticeps from Illinois, USA. Since that time there have been many cases diagnosed all over the country. An exponential increase in the cases in the past three years has been noted. Because, to this point, we have only been able to detect this disease after death using a postmortem pathology, little is known about the pathogenesis of the adenovirus in the bearded dragon. My work has focused on detecting the virus in the live animal and getting a better understanding of its pathogenesis.

This is from Dr. Wentz' paper.

Hope it helps some.
Thank you.
 
Mooing Tricycle said:
So what you are getting at is that, while the strain might ( or might not since we dont know yet) have been in the dragons, it might not have been harmful until now?

I just don't know. Asking questions.
 
Dennis Hultman said:
Thank you.

Dennis-

Here's some information on the 1996 cases.

http://www.vetpathology.org/cgi/con...+E&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

I sure hope that link works.

Edit: I couldn't get the link to work, but this is what it says.

Veterinary Pathology, Vol 33, Issue 3 343-346, Copyright © 1996 by American College of Veterinary Pathologists


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ARTICLES


Coinfection of a bearded dragon, Pogona vitticeps, with adenovirus- and dependovirus-like viruses
E. R. Jacobson, W. Kopit, F. A. Kennedy and R. S. Funk
University of Florida, Gainesville 32610, USA.

Four neonate bearded dragons, Pogona vitticeps, from two collections became ill and died. Multiple tissues were collected and processed for light microscopy. In hematoxylin and eosin-stained sections of liver of one lizard, numerous basophilic intranuclear inclusions were observed. In three lizards, intranuclear inclusions were primarily seen within enterocytes in the small intestine. A portion of paraffin-embedded liver of one lizard and small intestine of a second lizard were removed, deparaffinized, and examined by electron microscopy. For the most part, inclusions in the liver consisted of nonenveloped viral particles 60-66 nm in diameter. Smaller nonenveloped virions 15-17 nm in diameter were occasionally seen in association with these particles. In the intestine, inclusions consisted only of 60-70 nm particles. Based on morphology and location, the larger particles were consistent with an adenovirus. Based on size and presence within nuclei of host cells coinfected with the adenovirus-like virus, the smaller viral agent was consistent with members of the genus Dependovirus.
 
I did find an article concerning the first barbatus afflicted with Adeno from the Auckland Zoological Park. Here is the article.

N Z Vet J. 1982 May;30(5):59-60. Links
[Q N Z Vet J. 1982 May;30(5):59-60. Links
Adenoviral hepatitis in a female bearded dragon (Amphibolurus barbatus).Julian AF, Durham PJ.
Animal Health Reference Laboratory, Wallaceville Animal Research Centre, Private Bag, Upper Hutt.

A female bearded dragon (Amphibolurus barbatus) died following intermittent periods of inappetance. No significant gross lesions were found at autopsy, but histological examination revealed disordered liver architecture with numerous foci of coagulative necrosis. Eosinophilic intranuclear inclusions were present in many hepatocytes, some epithelial cells of the bile ductules and occasional epithelial cells of renal tubes and glomeruli. Large numbers of viral particles within many nuclei, associated with the intranuclear inclusion were demonstrated by electronmicroscopy. Similar particles, sometimes in paracrystalline arrays, were also seen within membrane-bound vesicles located next to the nuclei and to a lesser degree within the cytoplasm and extracellular spaces. The virus was considered to be an adenovirus on the basis of its size, morphology, site of formation and lack of envelopment. It was considered to he the cause of the hepatitis.

PMID: 16030866 [PubMed]
UOTE] N Z Vet J. 1982 May;30(5):59-60. Links[/QUOTE]
 
Also, apparently wild Bearded Dragons in Australia have been diagnosed with adenovirus as well. I can't seem to figure out how to read the full article, but you can see the beginning of it here:

Adenovirus in wild dragons
 
KelliH said:
Also, apparently wild Bearded Dragons in Australia have been diagnosed with adenovirus as well. I can't seem to figure out how to read the full article, but you can see the beginning of it here:

Adenovirus in wild dragons

If you can figure it out, would you mind sharing? I'm having issues, as well.
 
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If I am reading this correctly, it was in a wild bearded dragons in 1982

Quote:
It has not been found YET in wild bearded dragons.
CheriS 11-02-2006 03:49 AM

that is not accurate, the first ever recorded case of it found in a bearded dragon was in Australia, 1981 in a National Zoological Park in Australia and reported in 1982 in The New Zealand Veterinary Journal, Volume 30, Number 5, 1 May 1982, pp. 59-60(2)

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nzva/nzvj/1982/00000030/00000005/art00003

You can purchase the entire article for 25 bucks..
 
KelliH said:
Also, apparently wild Bearded Dragons in Australia have been diagnosed with adenovirus as well. I can't seem to figure out how to read the full article, but you can see the beginning of it here:

Adenovirus in wild dragons

Kelli, I can't seem to find what you are linking to.
 
KelliH said:
Also, apparently wild Bearded Dragons in Australia have been diagnosed with adenovirus as well. I can't seem to figure out how to read the full article, but you can see the beginning of it here:

Adenovirus in wild dragons


Ive tried searching that page, and have not seen anything regarding bearded dragons, other than one thing about Lesions on the skin or something.

Nothing on Adenovirus except for that one snippett.... can anyone else locate the topic?


It also seems to state, that it is in only northern bearded dragons as of yet? I dont know enough about beardeds, but are they only in the north? or are they all over the continent?
 
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Also, apparently wild Bearded Dragons in Australia have been diagnosed with adenovirus as well. I can't seem to figure out how to read the full article, but you can see the beginning of it here:

Hmm, do a keyword search for adenovirus and you will see what I was referring to.
 
KelliH said:
Hmm, do a keyword search for adenovirus and you will see what I was referring to.

Adenovirus hepatitis in Bearded Dragons - Katie Reed (Due Dec 2004)

What we currently know and don't know about Adenovirus hepatitis, an emerging disease of wild Australian Bearded Dragons in the Northern Territory of Australia


This is what you're seeing, right? It's been a really, really long day. Am I missing something here?
 
Saladragon said:
Adenovirus hepatitis in Bearded Dragons - Katie Reed (Due Dec 2004)

What we currently know and don't know about Adenovirus hepatitis, an emerging disease of wild Australian Bearded Dragons in the Northern Territory of Australia


This is what you're seeing, right? It's been a really, really long day. Am I missing something here?


Thats all i see as well. I believe that is what she is referring to, but i dont think there are any articles on it, but that one bit?

I tried using the site in Mozilla and IE just to be sure i was able to use the site entirely too.... no luck in search?
 
Adenovirus hepatitis in Bearded Dragons - Katie Reed (Due Dec 2004)

What we currently know and don't know about Adenovirus hepatitis, an emerging disease of wild Australian Bearded Dragons in the Northern Territory of Australia

I guess she is either very late on her report or it's not easily accessible.
 
Results
AFIP Wednesday Slide Conference - No. 29
22 May 1996
Conference Moderator: Dr. Donald K. Nichols
Diplomate, ACVP
Department of Pathology
National Zoological Park Washington, D.C. 20008

Case II - 33735, 33733, or 33709
(AFIP 2503649)
Signalment: Acanthodraco vitticeps (inland bearded dragon).

Necrotic hepatocytes in the liver of a bearded dragon. Almost every is karyomegalic as the result of a large smudgy basophilic adenoviral inclusion. (HE, 400X, 48K)

History: The sections are drawn from three representative cases in an outbreak of sudden deaths of 80% of a batch of 4 to 8-week-old captive-bred bearded dragon hatchlings that occurred over several weeks. No signs of ill-health had been observed in the parent animals; Salmonella spp. had been isolated sporadically from fecal culture of both parents and hatchlings. The animals were housed in several separate batches, all of which were affected. No premonitory signs of illness were observed; affected animals were found dead.

Gross Pathology: Twenty-five animals were examined. In all cases the animals either had a pale, mottled liver or were grossly normal.

Laboratory Results: Salmonella spp. (Group A to I positive) were isolated in mixed culture from some but not all cases.

Contributor's Diagnosis and Comments:

33735, unlabelled Liver, necrosis, diffuse, acute, severe with hepatomegaly and amphophilic intranuclear inclusion bodies. Stomach, intranuclear inclusion bodies, superficial epithelium, rare. Duodenum, intranuclear inclusion bodies, epithelial cells. Pancreas, intranuclear inclusion bodies, acinar cells, rare.

33733 Liver, necrosis, diffuse, acute, severe with hepatomegaly and amphophilic intranuclear inclusion bodies. Duodenum, intranuclear inclusion bodies, epithelial cells. Pancreas, intranuclear inclusion bodies, acinar cells, rare. Lung, normal.

33709 Liver, necrosis, diffuse, acute, severe with hepatomegaly and amphophilic intranuclear inclusion bodies. Intestine, intranuclear inclusion bodies, epithelial cells. Pancreas, intranuclear inclusion bodies, acinar cells, rare. Stomach, normal.

Of twenty-five animals euthanized or submitted dead for necropsy, twenty showed liver lesions; most had inclusions at other epithelial sites similar to the cases presented here. The degree of hepatic inflammation associated with the presence of intranuclear inclusions varied widely. Additional sites affected in other cases included gall bladder epithelium, oral epithelium, kidney tubular epithelium, esophageal epithelium, lung and salivary gland. Viral culture produced only contaminants. Adenovirus-like particles were observed in electron micrographs of liver tissue from several affected animals. A very similar outbreak among juvenile Rankin's dragon lizards (Pogona henrylawsoni) has been reported (Frye et al., 1994), characterized by hepatic necrosis with large, basophilic intranuclear inclusion bodies. Electron microscopy showed numerous intranuclear paracrystalline arrays of adenovirus-like particles. A similar adenovirus infection has been reported in a bearded dragon in New Zealand (Julian and Durham, 1990).

AFIP Diagnosis:
1. Liver: Necrosis, disseminated, with numerous basophilic intranuclear inclusion bodies, Inland Bearded Dragon (Acanthodraco vitticeps), reptile.
2. Stomach, duodenum, and pancreas, epithelial cells: Basophilic intranuclear inclusion bodies, small numbers.

Conference Note: Adenovirus, a double-stranded DNA virus, has been reported in numerous reptiles including Nile crocodiles, boa constrictors, rosy boas, rat snakes, Gaboon vipers, Savannah monitor lizards, Jackson's chameleon, and Rankin's dragon. All of these reptiles had intranuclear viral inclusions in the gastrointestinal tract and/or liver; most also had hepatic necrosis.

Adenovirus is established in some breeding groups of bearded dragons in the United States. Transmission studies have not been done; however, lizards hatched from eggs incubated apart from parents and having no contact with adult lizards after hatching have developed the disease. This suggests that vertical transmission occurs.

In a recent case report of adenovirus and dependovirus-like infection of bearded dragons, the ultrastructural characteristics of the reptilian adenovirus included the formation of paracrystalline arrays in the nucleus of infected cells. The viral particles were 60-66 nm in diameter, non-enveloped, and had electron-dense or electron-lucent cores.

Contributor: Division of Comparative Medicine, Department of Pathology, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21205.

References:
1. Frye, F.L, Munn, K.J., Gardner, M., Barten, S.L. and L. B. Hadfy (1994) Adenovirus-like hepatitis in a group of related Rankin's dragon lizards (Pogona henrylawsoni) Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 25 (1) 167-171.

2. Julian, A.F. and P.J.K. Durham. (1990) Adenoviral hepatitis in a female bearded dragon (Amphilbolurus barbatus). New Zealand Veterinary Journal 30: 59-60.

3. Jacobson ER, Kopit W, Kenedy FA, and Funk RS: Coinfection of a bearded dragon, Pogona vitticeps, with adenovirus- and dependovirus-like viruses. Vet Pathol 33:343-346, 1996.
 
Adenovirus is established in some breeding groups of bearded dragons in the United States. Transmission studies have not been done; however, lizards hatched from eggs incubated apart from parents and having no contact with adult lizards after hatching have developed the disease. This suggests that vertical transmission occurs.

Pay close attention to the contributer of this study. This is coming from John Hopkins University, in Maryland.

If they believe that AV is in some groups of breeding dragons...but not all, who are we to say they are wrong?
There may not be as much info out there as we would like but there is some info and what is out there we are choosing to ignore it.
 
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