About the BOI and it's future here...

[kmurphy]

In my opinion, it's the BOI regulars (or ABUSERS) who have put you in this position. These regulars rarely have anything useful to add, and in most cases, their comments only detract from the value of a site like this. They just get a kick out of getting to play judge and jury...the power to ruin someone's business, especially someone they're jealous of, is intoxicating to them.

Anthony, even if the above statement were completely true I don't agree with making the BOI threads a buyer/seller only thing. In many cases, if not most, the seller is much more experienced than the buyer. If some experienced individuals didn't jump in, even though they are not part of the transaction, the buyer would just get discouraged and drop it. Also many times the seller's "true colors" don't come out without a little prodding.
Two more things, both off topic. I wouldn't even consider buy from someone that attempted to limit my recourse if the deal went south.
And Sammy rarely posts on the BOI.

 

[alexestrada17]

Anthony, even if the above statement were completely true I don't agree with making the BOI threads a buyer/seller only thing. In many cases, if not most, the seller is much more experienced than the buyer. If some experienced individuals didn't jump in, even though they are not part of the transaction, the buyer would just get discouraged and drop it. Also many times the seller's "true colors" don't come out without a little prodding.
Two more things, both off topic. I wouldn't even consider buy from someone that attempted to limit my recourse if the deal went south.
And Sammy rarely posts on the BOI.

This is one of the problems i see with the BOI. It just becomes overwhelming with people, it becomes 1 vs. "the world"..then people ask tons of questions to try to confuse you, twist your words, and keep digging for info that most of the time is completely "out of the ball park". It's those "experienced individuals?" or "BOI Regulars" that do all the digging and false accusations and they really outnumber one person..and thats where a person get confused and messes up on one word and thats when they lead "there full charge". Of course if the person is a scammer then he deserves it. But sometimes good people end up on the "bad" side of the BOI and get trashed because "experienced people" think "bad guy tag" means..must be a scammer lets bombard him with questions and accusations to get something out of them..

 

[Lucille]

. But sometimes good people end up on the "bad" side of the BOI and get trashed because "experienced people" think "bad guy tag" means..must be a scammer lets bombard him with questions and accusations to get something out of them..

There DO tend to be questions. After all, what comes out of a particular thread helps the next guy make his purchasing decision. And there is no question that sometimes things get out of hand, I'm not saying they don't and that is an ongoing problem.

But there are many bad guy threads where, after some questions, it is clear that instead of a faulty vendor, it was in fact a bad or biased buyer.

It is sometimes said that the mere 'Bad Guy' title and someone's name serves to deter buyers, but human nature what it is, I think most people coming to investigate prior to a purchase read through a thread and not just the title.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Actually, you spoke to everyone in the same manner from the start. You were looking for conflict from the beginning and unless you are an idiot you knew this as did most others. But you are correct, there is more important things here than how or what you have to say, period.



Support, sorry, but I you are a liar. Please point out where you were showing support in your post. Ideas, yes, support, I must have overlooked that with all the arrogance and insults of yours that I was skimming over.

Then again, if you were the big man you claim to be then why didn't you "try to save the BOI from all the idiots" when Rich first posted his intentions versus running your mouth a week before the decision is slated to be made?



Having a debate is one thing, an intelligent person such as you yourself claim to be should be able to have a debate yet for some reason you are not capable of doing so. Maybe you're just not as smart as you think you are.



Sounds similar to something that I posted a while ago. I compared the likes of some to the cat and my posting the laser pointer and the ease in which I found to have others chase the dot. While I guess referring to someone as a cat could be considered insulting it is not as so as calling someone an idiot. But hey, if insulting others makes you feel better about yourself then I guess it's not my place to take the little pleasures from your life.



BTW left field, it's financial issues threatening to take away OUR BOI not one person or certain type of persons. Though, even if it were, how does your acting like those whom you claim to be the problem going to make things better?



LOL, yep, you are acting soooo grown up. Guess that's why you opted not to have a debate knowing you'd be spanked.



Again, honest breeders and upstanding hobbyists have nothing to fear here on the BOI and would have no reason to stand up for themselves short of being called an idiot from likes of you.

Dand, regardless of how you want to break it down and interpret it, people are listening, and seeing. The OP is not alone in thinking his thoughts and you know this. You know how bad the BOI used to be. There are improvements, and more could be made because it is far from perfect (everything usually is).

Many people are saying and have said the same thing as AJC, intermittently and gotten attacked and had their points derailed. Not all of these people are upset because they got "spanked." Some of them just realize the potential of the BOI and are sad to see that it has not reached that potential yet.

BTW: I realize that the OP was speaking in GENERAL offensive terms and what he said did not apply to everyone. Since I realized this simple point, I did not feel the need to get offended.

In summary, removing everything that he said that could possibly have offeded some...His point about the trickle down effect is valid.

Moving on....back on topic...

Now returning to your regularly sheduled programming...

 

[ajc]

I'm done proving how goofy these folks are (mission accomplished), but here's a rough idea of what I would do. Obviously I haven't thought this through, but this is what I've been thinking thus far.

Review System Basics
The review system I propose would require the buyer to post their full name, email (or provide a link without the actual email address) and any details they wish to post. The ability to post photos would also be there.

There would be no third party posting. If someone else has experience with that seller, they can and should post their own review. Then when someone does a search on the seller, they would get a listing of reviews that they can read through.

Proof of Purchase
Although there's no way to legitimately prove that what they say is true, both on the BOI or on a new review system, the buyer could be required to provide some sort of proof of purchase...such as a screenshot of a paypal invoice.

Or, you could waive this requirement, but if it's later discovered that the buyer is lying, or has lied in other threads, their reviews would either be removed from the website, or flagged with something to let readers know that this buyer's reviews cannot be fully trusted. A "lying vindictive scumbag badge" if you will. Rich might want to work on the wording, though.

What if I didn't get a receipt?
Maybe that should have been your first clue to purchase elsewhere. Paypal provides invoices for every purchase, and it's easy to take a screenshot, so I really don't see this being a legitimate concern. For those buying at shows, that's your job to do your homework, or ask for a receipt.

This isn't foolproof, but it's absolutely no different than what we're doing right now.

Seller Protection
To keep things fair, sellers would be able to defend themselves in the review. They too would be able to post info, images and such.

But the opinion of others matters!
Not really. The buyer and seller are the only parties who can really give a first hand account of the story.

Personally, I'm not interested in second hand accounts, and I'm certainly not interested in the opinion of some dork who has made a hobby of posting their opinion about other peoples' business on the interenet.

I see no legitimate reason why the opinion of 3rd parties need to be a part of this review system. Commentary from third parties, in my opinion, only clutters threads with rhetoric and makes it extremely difficult to get to the meat and potatoes. Again, if someone else has dealt with that seller, they should post their own review.

Bottom line, I haven't seen one legitimate reason why the opinion of 3rd parties should matter. Having bought tons of reptiles at shows and over the interenet, and having been screwed a few times, I still don't care if Joe Blow is of the opinion that the seller is a scumbag. I want to know facts...and then I'll decide for myself if he or she is a scumbag.

Like I said, if someone else has dealt with that seller, they should post their own review.

Benefits
With this type of system, there would be nothing but first hand accounts of what happened. Obviously, if the seller has more bad guy reviews than good guy reviews, everyone will know he's a bad guy.

Another bonus is that readers who are using the system for the purpose it's intended (to make a buying decision) wouldn't have to sift through all the "opinions" and childish bickering that litter threads and make them impossible to follow in a reasonable amount of time.

In short, it will be more convenient for readers, more concise, and less time consuming to utilize.

As far as people needing other people with "experience" to help them...
Exactly what kind of experience are we talking about? Experience at arguing and berating others? Experience at knowing who's popular and who's not? Experience at putting together snappy sentences that sound really cool to other idiots who love to argue? I don't see the need for any of that.

If, by experience, you mean experience with reptiles, that's what reptile forums are for. These "experienced" people, if they're really just here to help others (which I don't buy for a minute), should not need to know the seller's name or history to offer sound advice. In fact, NOT knowing the seller's name in these posts would likely result in better advice, more concise answers...and best of all, the politics and personal insults that this forum is littered with would be greatly reduced.

To David Gruning (DAND)
Let's be realistic here. I see little in the way of rational or objective thinking in any of your posts, and that's why I'm not taking the time to respond to them. I'm certainly not avoiding a debate because I'm afraid you're smarter than me and I'll lose. I have an IQ of 135-140. Not sure what yours is, but the odds of you being more intelligent are about 99:1 in my favor. My debating you would make as much sense as Randy Couture fighting some drunk guy at a bar. I know what would happen, I have nothing to gain from it, you have nothing to lose, and my time is far too valuable. If you'd like to add to what I've posted above, it's all good...but if you want to continue with the knotted panty talk and such, I'll just keep ignoring it. Your choice.

And for the record, they're boxer briefs. And that isn't a knot. It's just really cold. lol

 

[AF Exotics]

After reading the latest round of post's,I can't help but disagree with Anthony's comments .Some validity,yes,when you speak from a position of having threads on here that cast some dispersions upon you,Anthony .Some do cast you in an unfavorable light,just from the header .I,myself have purchased from you and would do so again ,One transaction didn't go well,but you did what you needed to do to handle it correctly .Simple mistake,no prob .Face it people,nothing is PERFECT .If this is such a bad place,why be here .


Let's go to a useful analogy someone brought up .Think of the last time you were summoned to Jury duty .Did you know the people involved ? If so,that disqualifies you if you are honest about it .Do you have any previous knowledge of the case ? If so,that also could get you sent home .So I am not saying this describes the BOI exactly .What I am saying it's not that much different .Yeah,their are some people here that like to go on the attack .I've been through it .There is a thread here where I was attacked for something I didn't do .I just told the truth,really .Others were selling the same "New Blood" Hog Islands .I was torn apart for telling it as I saw it .These snakes were wild caught .I bought them as cbb,and they were not .Long story short,IT ISN'T PERFECT,and yes there is room for improvement .I have been here long enough,and in the herp hobby long enough to know this site has made some positive contributions .One other thing,to Anthony personally,we talked breifly on the phone before and you seemed like a stand up guy .I understand passion,I'm one of those types,but slamming people with the intent of messing with them does not look good on someone who wants to be considered a professional .Everybody makes mistakes ,just say what you need to say,in a way you can people to listen,without insulting them .If all else fails,well there's a quick step outside the gate if need be .

Try the easy way first,then you deal with it accordingly if need be .My last post ,and I hope everyones Christmas and Holidays were great so far,Marcus Quesada .

 

[sincitydragons]

let me just state for the record, and just maybe we can get back to the real subject at hand... Anthony "I" was not offended by what you said and the same goes for you David but all the mud slinging turns the forum into a type of side show and people forget what we're really here for. I have no problem with anyone standing up for them selves or others when its neccessary. Now I know you probably couldn't care less what "I" think and thats okay with me. I'm sure you will be fine with your large website and base of loyal customers and friends but don't you think we would all be better off business wise and stress wise if there was a higher level of professionalism amongst us. I don't have problems with any of you personally as I have no reason to and hope to keep it that way but the last couple pages have taken from whats important here and I know that wasn't anyones intention so please lets get back to it.

I think that there are several in agreeance that the ebay format of buyer seller feedback would serve this site well and I still think that switching from completely free classifieds to a percentage based, Ebay like, format would as well, but what we haven't heard is wether or not Rich is even willing to put in the extra work it would take to change any of these things and if he is what kind of help would he need to do it?

 

[sincitydragons]

p.s. ajc, thanks for the last post with all the benefits and such

 

[ajc]

I,myself have purchased from you and would do so again ,One transaction didn't go well,but you did what you needed to do to handle it correctly .Simple mistake,no prob

Marcus,

I have a business to run here, so I'd appreciate it, if you're going to drudge up an old issue, you'd not make vague comments that could be left to the imagination.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only going from a few notes in my ordering system.

1. You ordered a gecko that either went missing or got sold at a show that weekend...something like that.

2. I told you I could refund your money, or apply the price to something else. You chose another gecko.

3. Because you were cool about it, I sent you a second gecko for FREE.

I think anyone will agree, that's going above and beyond...not just what I "needed" to do.

Was it really necessary for you to say we "had a problem"? I don't think so. This is a great example of why I get so frustrated when people don't think about the consequences of what they're posting before they hit the Reply button.

 

[AF Exotics]

Anthony,you sent two extra geckos,and it was a problem with the order .You can't handle that,not my problem .I was not drudging it up,as you went and did that now .Get a grip .I can see you have a pride issue .Get over it .I think completely and thoroughly before I post .

 

[AF Exotics]

Also,I chose no other gecko,get it right,you went out of your way to make it right by sending two additional geckos when I was asking for a refund .You said you had two from the same lineage .

 

[ajc]

Now I know you probably couldn't care less what "I" think and thats okay with me.

Actually, I do care what you think. You're part of the 99% that make this site worth wading through all the BS.

I have enjoyed your posts and even though you don't agree with everything I've said, or the way I've called out the abusers of this website, but your posts are objective and fair. That's really all anyone is asking for.

 

[ajc]

.I can see you have a pride issue .

Marcus,

Take it easy bro...no offense intended there. I just didn't want there to be anything left to the imagination. Again, remember where we are and who we're amongst.

It has nothing to do with pride and everything to do with reputation. I guess those could be considered one and the same for a business owner, but hopefully you can see the necessity in protecting my reputation.

Peace!

 

[ajc]

OK...enough bickering. We have four days, according to Rich, to get this figured out. I think it's time to put any differences aside and make this thread productive.

I know my proposed "review system" is far from perfect, but it's a start. If we all put our heads together, we can surely come up with a solution that would keep Rich from being sued, and consumers from getting screwed.

And no, I did not mean for that to rhyme.

Also,I chose no other gecko,get it right,you went out of your way to make it right by sending two additional geckos when I was asking for a refund .You said you had two from the same lineage .

Get it right? Easy killer, that's why I said "correct me if I'm wrong".

I've had almost a thousand orders since then, so I don't claim to remember every detail.

But yes, they were dalmatians....Chips offspring...I remember now. I sent you two geckos (without pictures) to replace the one that you originally ordered.

 

[AF Exotics]

No issues Bro,I keep it short and sweet .Remember the true business person makes roses out of a bad situation .I was actually giving you props for it .I understand the frustration here,but this is the best that we have "at this time",and yes,it can be better .Back to the matter,some people here have been guilty of some wasteless remarks,but isn't that like anywhere else in life we have to endure .I think the rules could be a little more forceful at times,but I do not think a closed system is the answer .I think there should be more emphasis on the relevancy of an issue,and more flexibility about post removal .I feel some posts should be removed,especially when they add no credibility .As far as side discussions,they happen,and should be taken to PM .If they persist,there should be a peer system that allows several users to mitigate that immediately .That is some of the problem you speak of .I remarked about validity to your post .Hopefully this process will enable some things to change if the BOI stays .Take care,Marcus .

 

[ajc]

But yes, they were dalmatians....Chips offspring...I remember now. I sent you two geckos (without pictures) to replace the one that you originally ordered.

Damn...I think I'm just confusing myself now.

Not that this really matters, but I'm a little OCD...you picked out two geckos with pictures (ID's AS-MH-5 and AS-MH-6 according to my notes) and I sent a third for free...correct?

 

[ajc]

I think the rules could be a little more forceful at times,but I do not think a closed system is the answer .I think there should be more emphasis on the relevancy of an issue,and more flexibility about post removal .I feel some posts should be removed,especially when they add no credibility .As far as side discussions,they happen,and should be taken to PM .If they persist,there should be a peer system that allows several users to mitigate that immediately.

I agree 110%. If everything you said above were to become a reality, this place would pretty much be "fixed" as far as I'm concerned.

How likely that is to happen at this point, I don't know...but I would totally support it.

 

[Lucille]

I agree 110%. If everything you said above were to become a reality, this place would pretty much be "fixed" as far as I'm concerned.

How likely that is to happen at this point, I don't know...but I would totally support it.

I think that removing posts from a BOI type thread is impermissible editing, because the moderator doing the removing would have to decide what is relevant and what is not. That is an invitation to a suit if others disagree, especially if the others were one of the parties involved.

 

[AF Exotics]

Your not lapsing into OCD,I ordered a couple more afterwards .Your just lumping it together .Now I hope the BOI stays,and I hope we can make some things a lot better .But I still feel,this is the best model we have,and with some refining,it can be better .There have been numerous suggestions that probably would help .I frequent this site often,but as you can see from my post count,I do not post that often,only where I feel that there is some relevance or experience to be added .After all,I now am approaching "old fartdom",but I can outrun most twenty year olds and still go some rounds .I'm out,football is calling .

 

[TattooLost]

I'd just like to throw in my opinion real quick. I consider myself a regular here these days. I have my periods of inactivity here and there when work or life gets busy, but I always come back. I also frequent the BOI, and occasionally get involved in a thread, though not usually when it's just mudslinging. That said, I kinda take offense to your posts Anthony, because from the start you lumped all "regulars" as the problem on this site. Sure, there are idiots here, just as any other open forum, but to say "The regulars are the problem" was pretty rude to me and seemed to try to incite discord. I've never done business with you, but I'd heard good things over the years, and even participated in a BOI thread about you, and I'm pretty sure I didn't attempt to turn it into the "Jerry Springer Show" but rather pretty much stood up for you based on the facts.

Let me use this example from my life. We live in a small town. My wife's best friend is a "Smith." My wife's brother in law's grandfather, dislikes a couple of the "Smiths." He comes into my wife's work one day, and makes a comment that a local eatery "is really going to hell with all those 'Smiths' hanging around there lately." Sure, he might not have meant ALL the "Smiths" but it sure sounds like it doesn't it? Especially when my wife's best friend has been hanging around said eatery. So as you'd expect, she gets offended, and it sets off a regular Hatfields & McCoys fued in this town, leading up to me (who stays out of local drama) getting sucker punched and the. wife's brother in law going jail.

Kinda see my point? I'm assuming you will since you want to brag about your IQ on here. If you're the genius you think you are, you obviously knew you were about to incite people with your words. I give the grandfather an excuse because he's an ignorant hick and I know that. I'm assuming you're IQ is as high as you say it is, so you have no such excuse IMO.

Anthony, we've never done business, but I like your carpets, and I still will probably purchase from you in the future when finances allow, but I just wanted to voice my opinion on your words, and let you know that I kinda took offense to them. Not every "regular" is a bad seed on here, just like not every "regular" isn't a bad seed on BLBC or bp.net or any other site, or even this town or yours. I shouldn't have to try to figure out if you think I'm one of the idiots.