About the BOI and it's future here...

[Southern Wolf]

This isn't anything personal, and isn't intended as a shot at you....but, when one puts an expense off, even if it is deemed important, there will always be new important bills that get in the way. We ARE only talking about $25...I don't think there are too many people here that can look at their expenses since they became a member (or, in the past year, in the case of long timers) and honestly say they just couldn't have afforded the membership. Some people don't want to contribute - that's their choice, and I have no problem with them saying just that. But I do have a hard time accepting the statement that I would, but I just don't have the money from people that have spent several hundred to several thousand dollars on animals. It's just numbers, but they don't add up

Its all good Harald....

And for the most part you are 100% correct. There will always be new important bills and it is a numbers game.

Here are my numbers.... my goal is to have my animals support me or very close to it in 6 years. I already have a pretty decent number for my breeding stock (some breeding now.. some growing up) and I dumped a whole lotta money this year to increase that breeding stock. Same will most likely go for next year.... I will max out buying to just short of showing a loss at the end of the year. Its not just good enough to have the amount of hatchings I need in 6 years.. but I also have to be able to sell them. So right now I am dumping my cash on advertising (to get my name out there) and future breeders so I have the babies I need at that time.

Rich has decided he wanted to retire by Jan..... I have decided I want to retire in 6 years.... retire from a job I hate.... and breed reptiles full time which is something I love.

I guess that I am singing the I would, but I just don't have the money tune... but I also have to look at this from a business standpoint in reguards to reaching my ultimate goals. Supporting myself in 6 years doing something I love.

One another note... I have sent Rich a PM in reference to and Idea I had to make the "contributing member" a little more appealing to small time breeders like myself that are not only working a full time job... but also taking care of a nice sized collection and trying to do the business end of things as well.

You have heard the saying "time is money".... well in this case... this small change (if possible) would save us alot of time managing our classifieds here... and thus be well worth the money spent to achieve this.... so much so... that you can call it supporting the BOI or call it paying to effectivly (sp?)advertise....

Harald... Ive been here for a while and you know Im a straight shooter... Im not really trying to make excuses.... just stating why its not real high on the list at this time.

 

[JG1153]

You know I made a huge deal earlier in the thread about about how making the BOI pay-to-play would be a really bad idea but I'm really starting to change my mind now after hearing all these people posting excuses for why they can't come up with the $25 to show Rich the BOI matters so perhaps pay-to-play would not be such a bad idea. I have a pretty decent sized collection and I have my goals of doing something with that collection also but ultimately if I were to skip a weeks worth of feeding for all those animals it really wouldn't put any of those animals nor my goals in any kind of jeopardy but it would surely cover the $25 for the year and show my support for the BOI. So I'm sorry but unless you're flat broke, in which case you have no business hanging out here instead of looking for a job, all those execuses are really just that. At least if the BOI goes to pay-to-play those who care enough about the site would still be able to use it and those leeching off would perhaps be forced to step up or they can take the chance and get scammed.

On a lighter note from reading the last few post it seem there are still people who are unaware of the situation with the BOI. It seems that people don't necessarily pay attention to the stickies. Would I get in trouble if I were to go to some of the active threads on the BOI and make a single small post making people aware and directing them here? It would technically be taking the thread off topic but it might help make more people aware and perhaps drive up contributions?

 

[WebSlave]

Heck, I can understand people being short on funds and having to put priorities on where and how they spend their money. That's really not all that hard to understand. Everything you spend money on is going to be based on the priority of how important it is to you and what you would have to do without if you do not put the money towards things with a lower priority. That's really easy to understand.

And I hope, in turn, that people recognize how I also have to put things into perspective and also prioritize how I spend my money and how that has to be considered with not only monthly expenses, but also the possibility of future expenses and that relative importance to the financial impact it could have on me.

That is really what this thread is all about, I believe. Everyone needs to consider their priorities. If the continued existence of the BOI is so far down on the totem pole for most people, then heck, I understand. It's right down there for me too at this time. I'm just looking for a reason to put it a few notches higher, I guess... Unless the reasons for me to keep it will outweigh the reasons to let it go, then how would anyone else treat this kind of decision if they were in my shoes?

 

[BPHERP]

Please explain to me...

I am a web developer and I either run, help run or provide different venues where people post about other people and/or topics, etc. Please explain to me why the BOI needs money to defend itself. In my mind, if this were true, there would not be a single website that could operate without legal representation.

That being said, what is posted on any venue on the web is fair game, as long as someone does not slander or libel someone, and in the case of the BOI, all people are doing is posting actual experiences about transactions. Also, anything posted that comes under fire is not given any merit unless proof of a bad experience can be provided.

I will note, I have not read all the posting on this thread, so I assume this argument has already been covered. If so, please point me to the explanation. If not, I would appreciate an answer.

Thanks,
Brandon

 

[Southern Wolf]

Rich... I honestly dont know what I would do in your shoes.

Just a question that just popped into my head... and I really dont want an answer... mainly just putting it out there so you can think about it should you choose to.

You said....

Perhaps....

Or I could just take it to court, win it, then file a countersuit based on the lack of merit of that original lawsuit, and put the money awarded me for the damages inflicted by that lawsuit to very good use. I am extremely confident that I would win such a lawsuit, so perhaps this may be the best route for me to consider taking in such a case. Might cost me some money up front, but yeah, I'll get it back, with interest, in the end.

Do you have enough put back to fight the first lawsuit.... As you stated above... win it then file your counter suit... and use the money awarded to add into a legal fund (savings account). Everytime someone gets the bright idea of suing you... add your money awarded into that same legal fund. My guess is a couple times of this and you wouldnt have to worry about the funds to fight a suit.. cause you would have the awarded money from the frivolous (sp?) suits ready and waiting. You just need the funds for the original suit.

You stated that you put alot of work into the BOI and dont really want to see it go (if I remember correctly) but your worried about financial aspects that the BOI causes. Would this solve those financial aspects? Only you can answer that.

Its something to think about maybe

 

[BPHERP]

I am a web developer and I either run, help run or provide different venues where people post about other people and/or topics, etc. Please explain to me why the BOI needs money to defend itself. In my mind, if this were true, there would not be a single website that could operate without legal representation.

That being said, what is posted on any venue on the web is fair game, as long as someone does not slander or libel someone, and in the case of the BOI, all people are doing is posting actual experiences about transactions. Also, anything posted that comes under fire is not given any merit unless proof of a bad experience can be provided.

I will note, I have not read all the posting on this thread, so I assume this argument has already been covered. If so, please point me to the explanation. If not, I would appreciate an answer.

Thanks,
Brandon

Brandon Piddington is my full name

 

[Southern Wolf]

Brandon,

I think it comes from... anyone can sue for anything. Doesnt matter if it has merit or not. You still have to pay to defend yourself. I think that is where Rich is coming from. He knows that according to the Law he will win... but he still has to pay to defend himself in court... and thats not cheap.

 

[BPHERP]

Brandon,

I think it comes from... anyone can sue for anything. Doesnt matter if it has merit or not. You still have to pay to defend yourself. I think that is where Rich is coming from. He knows that according to the Law he will win... but he still has to pay to defend himself in court... and thats not cheap.

Well then, Rich needs to reach out and find a herper that is also a lawyer, one who will do pro-bono work; basically a person who knows the value of the BOI, and who will work to defend against these idiots. (but I am sure he has already thought about this).

Thoughts?

Brandon Piddington

 

[R. Eventide]

Hmm, you must have gone back and read those old threads concerning the time I actually did put a paid membership requirement for the BOI. Because that's exactly what happened. I think the argument was something to the effect that I owed it to everyone to keep the BOI free and available.

Disturbingly enough, no, I didn't. It's just really easy to predict what people will do....

That being said, I guess that if I do decide to just close down the BOI, people will be wanting to track me down and hang me. After all, they will most certainly blame me for it's demise.

A Catch-22 at its best....

Well, I've got a little over a month to think about this. I just recently sold off all the rest of my animals, so by January 1, I will officially be in retirement.

Wooo!

Seriously guys, I really don't want to shut down the BOI, but you can't imagine the grief, stress, and headaches it has given me over the years. I have a special folder in my mail program just for "legal threats against FaunaClassifieds". If I wasn't just naturally hard headed and combative by nature, I would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. When someone threatens me, I just dig my heals in all the harder as NO one is forcibly going to take a damn thing from me. Tell me to delete some thread, OR ELSE, and I'll pick the OR ELSE, every time. The law is on MY side, bud.

Nope, I can't imagine the stress this must cause you, which is why I completely understand if you decide to give it the boot. One shouldn't have to put up with that kind of crap anyway, let alone during retirement!

But what will finally kill the BOI is if I become convinced that the majority of the people in this business really don't give a crap either way about it. That I am simply wasting my time putting up with all the crap I do fighting for everyone's privilege to tell the truth here about someone who raked them over the coals. That I am willing to put up with all those threats of a lawsuit that want to get that evidence swept into oblivion.

And it's decoupling those who don't care with those who just don't want to pay is the hard part...if one even considers those mutually exclusive....

So yeah, if that really is the case, then I wouldn't really be quitting, I would just be agreeing with them.... After all, what do I really need the BOI for any longer? The BOI is really for all of YOU now. You just need to show me my efforts haven't been all for nothing in the end.

Exactly!

 

[R. Eventide]

Well then, Rich needs to reach out and find a herper that is also a lawyer, one who will do pro-bono work; basically a person who knows the value of the BOI, and who will work to defend against these idiots. (but I am sure he has already thought about this).

When you find this person, let all of us know....

 

[WebSlave]

Yes, I do have a legal warchest built up. I believe it is enough, but realistically it depends on how much money the OP is willing to spend on their attorneys. Push come to shove, most legal battles are fought at the pocketbook level, and not in the courtroom. As one of my attorneys once told me, if you can't afford to go to court to defend your rights, then you HAVE no rights at all. For instance, if I decide that I want your car bad enough to spend $20K to file a frivolous lawsuit against you claiming $100K in trumped up damages, and you can't drum up the money for an attorney (start thinking about $50K or better if it actually goes to court) to defend yourself, then I WILL get that car from you. Even if your car is only worth $17K, I may want to just piss you off by taking it from you and it is worth that kind of money to me to do just that. Would you be willing to spend $50K to keep your $17K car? I'm pretty sure that your attorney would look at the figures and just advise you to give up the car as a settlement. At least this would be true if he didn't want to soak you for those attorney fees he would be collecting.

Of course, the question would also arise in my case as to whether or not I would WANT to spend that money for such a thing if I felt I would just really be pissing it away for something that doesn't really matter to most folks anyway. If I were faced with a serious lawsuit that could easily cost me $50K if I do not capitulate to the demands to delete a specific thread on the BOI, how much SHOULD I be concerned with spending that kind of money for such an expenditure? With say, 400 contributor members, even ignoring the month server bills, upgrades, problem consultations, and the like that I have to pay out, how long would it take me to rebuild that warchest? Certainly filing and winning a countersuit would help, but there are NO guarantees in the courtroom. And while this is all going on, I would guess that other members will be posting new threads and posts all along in the BOI, thereby exposing me to even more liability..... Suppose someone else gets worked up into a frenzy over what was posted about them and files ANOTHER lawsuit?

Once the warchest is depleted, no, I'm not dipping into my retirement savings for this site. Quite honestly, if it comes to a choice between keeping the BOI (or FaunaClassifieds, for that matter) and my retirement fund, it's bye-bye BOI time.

I hope this isn't overstating the obvious to everyone, but if the membership fees are too much of a burden for too many people here, then certainly the financial liability the BOI imposes on me giving you all this tool, will be too much of a burden for me. Don't get me wrong, I am pleased that the BOI has helped a lot of people and am proud of what it has become. But my income earning potential has changed with my retirement and I have to be realistic about what this is all worth to me at this stage of the game. Having a huge financial liability with no likelihood of the funds being able to be earned from the source of that liability just doesn't make any sense. I doubt that anyone can seriously argue with me about this point.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I dont think ANYONE will argue with you on that point Rich... and Im willing to bet we all agree with you as well when it comes to your retirement savings or the BOI.

 

[Lucille]

Well then, Rich needs to reach out and find a herper that is also a lawyer, one who will do pro-bono work; basically a person who knows the value of the BOI, and who will work to defend against these idiots. (but I am sure he has already thought about this).

Thoughts?

Brandon Piddington

I'd certainly contribute my efforts if needed, but different states have different laws, and a 'hometown' attorney often has connections and experience with a particular jurisdiction that can actually make a critical difference.

 

[BPHERP]

I'd certainly contribute my efforts if needed, but different states have different laws, and a 'hometown' attorney often has connections and experience with a particular jurisdiction that can actually make a critical difference.

I agree, and although I am not an attorney, perhaps you could assist in finding one that might be suitable. There has to be someone out there that meets those two criteria, which is being a lawyer and a herper at the same time.

 

[hhmoore]

There probably is, but what are the odds that he/she has suitable experience with this type of case?...It's not exactly a general practice issue.

 

[DAND]

I'm sorry but I keep hearing "I want something for free". Rich should do all this for nothing and if a problem arises an attorney should help for nothing so that the rest can have this site. I do not see how that is fair. If Rich should put his time and money into this why shouldn't every one else?

 

[Lucille]

I agree, and although I am not an attorney, perhaps you could assist in finding one that might be suitable. There has to be someone out there that meets those two criteria, which is being a lawyer and a herper at the same time.

I meet those criteria, I'm both an attorney and a herper, but as Harald pointed out, one would have to have some experience with these kinds of cases, and as I pointed out earlier, the various states have their own laws and local procedure.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I'm sorry but I keep hearing "I want something for free". Rich should do all this for nothing and if a problem arises an attorney should help for nothing so that the rest can have this site. I do not see how that is fair. If Rich should put his time and money into this why shouldn't every one else?

That's what I keep hearing as well and I fully agree with this statement.

There probably is, but what are the odds that he/she has suitable experience with this type of case?...It's not exactly a general practice issue.

Harold also raises a good point. How many experienced lawyers on this type of law are herpers and have heard of the BOI? You wouldn't want a kid straight out of law school for this sort of thing.

 

[dreck37]

Lets not forget just because someone wins a lawsuit doesnt mean they get the money
There are alot of deadbeats that dont pay up,There for rich would still be out the money he put up Unless he went to a collection place that would charge 50% of what they can get back so Rich would still be out money
lets not forget most states have it to where you can get a case continued numerus times and in small claims court, Lawyers cant go so he would have to spend money on flying to each court date to be there in person or forfeit and lose the case by default
Not to mention there are caps on small claims which wouldnt even cover his air fares
and everything he will have to put up
So even if he does win and could get some money he would still be out of pocket
Just my 2 cents worth

 

[Lucille]

Rich already has attorneys he likes, has worked with, and is familiar with. I'm sure he appreciates us each time we offer help, but is seems to me the best help we can offer is to try to donate toward the site's upkeep, and to try to have a membership. As well, there is the 'Contributions'nStuff thread on the top of the BOI forum where one can donate snakes, herps and other items to be auctioned and the funds gifted to Fauna.