About the BOI and it's future here...

[Twizted Paths]

If the subject lines were made accurate to avoid damaging a Good Guy’s reputation (by posting an icon that a Bad Guy has been shown to really be a Good Guy for example), doesn’t that just continue to give the non-paying folks the information they want from the BOI for free? Just some thoughts to protect all the Good Guys while getting the BOI to pay for itself. You could also think about making past BOI postings available on CD for a fee or something similar. Enjoy your retirement!

Virginia Bayer

That would make the site legally liable since they would be passing judgment.

I like the CD idea.

 

[cat snake]

True, but leaving an inaccurate subject line would likely be equally legally damaging, which is why not having subject lines, but a statement that there are a lot of posts about a lot of potential Bad Guys (with no further info. provided without a paying subscription) would probably be the best solution. Just thoughts again.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

True, but leaving an inaccurate subject line would likely be equally legally damaging

Rich/Fauna is not legally liable for what others post on a open forum (though someone could still attempt to sue him, but they would loose). By editing the subject or content he then is legally liable and could loose a lawsuit. This is why he nor the moderators touch anything written on the BOI (outside removing things).

 

[Twizted Paths]

This is why he nor the moderators touch anything written on the BOI (outside removing things).

Things being people who don't post their full name.

Not threads or such, once it's posted to BOI it's permanent.

 

[WebSlave]

Things being people who don't post their full name.

Not threads or such, once it's posted to BOI it's permanent.

In most cases, yes that is true. But some threads that are created in violation of the rules, or as in a recent case the originator of the thread used the wrong name and incorrect contact info about the person the thread was about, got removed because on it was basically useless.

As for threads created correctly, even if the originator demands that it be removed, it will not be.

 

[WebSlave]

Hi, Rich!
About the vote of confidence, I think some of the lackluster response has to do with the economy. I just tonight became a contributing member, but money is getting really tight. This week I had to pay someone with a Home Depot gift card to make up the balance of what I owed him because I am so short on cash. People are going to want to make sure they can buy presents for the kids before they can think about the BOI. I just hope they WILL think about the BOI before the end of the year! Even we cash-strapped folks need to step up to support it. I have used the BOI extensively and have avoided a few sellers because of the information I read. Thank you.

Can I make a comment about the “Pay to Play” idea? That is good, but I think allowing non-paying viewers to just read the subject lines is a bad idea. It seems to me that fully HALF of the “Bad Guy” threads, when you read them, show that the “Bad Guy” is actually a Good Guy who is being smeared by a disgruntled customer. If viewers can only read the subject line, there is no way these Good Guys will be able to vindicate themselves except to paying members and that could cost them business unfairly. Instead of letting people read the subject lines, you might want to consider something such as putting up a page with a ticker which states “In the past month, there have been XXX number of Bad Guy posts. Do you know if the person you want to buy from is one of them?” This way, Good Guys don’t get unfairly targeted and the mystery of what the threads contain might pique people’s curiosity enough to actually make them want to pay to see who really is a Bad Guy. If the subject lines were made accurate to avoid damaging a Good Guy’s reputation (by posting an icon that a Bad Guy has been shown to really be a Good Guy for example), doesn’t that just continue to give the non-paying folks the information they want from the BOI for free? Just some thoughts to protect all the Good Guys while getting the BOI to pay for itself. You could also think about making past BOI postings available on CD for a fee or something similar. Enjoy your retirement!

Virginia Bayer

Yes, that may be an unfortunate consequence of one of the possible choices I will make. But then again, I can't see any choice that doesn't have some drawback attached to it.

 

[cat snake]

Just to clarify, I understand why the threads are permanent, but if only the subject line is available to non-paying viewers, then in a sense the forum is no longer an "open" or "public" venue (unlike the subject line). If I were listed as a Bad Guy in a subject line and was subsequently shown to be a Good Guy (if the full thread were to be read by an average viewer), but this could not be made "public" because such information was available only to subscribers, then I would take the view that the BOI was publishing information that could be construed as bordering on libelous and I would look into legal recourse. It would be like publicizing that I was a thief when the thread would show (again if read by an average viewer) that I was not. I think publicly posting potentially harmful accusations (via the subject line) while knowingly withholding evidence to the contrary (via non-public threads) could lead to rather costly legal difficulties, no matter how things would ultimately be decided in a court of law.

 

[WebSlave]

Just to clarify, I understand why the threads are permanent, but if only the subject line is available to non-paying viewers, then in a sense the forum is no longer an "open" or "public" venue (unlike the subject line). If I were listed as a Bad Guy in a subject line and was subsequently shown to be a Good Guy (if the full thread were to be read by an average viewer), but this could not be made "public" because such information was available only to subscribers, then I would take the view that the BOI was publishing information that could be construed as bordering on libelous and I would look into legal recourse. It would be like publicizing that I was a thief when the thread would show (again if read by an average viewer) that I was not. I think publicly posting potentially harmful accusations (via the subject line) while knowingly withholding evidence to the contrary (via non-public threads) could lead to rather costly legal difficulties, no matter how things would ultimately be decided in a court of law.

You are welcome to talk to your attorney about this issue. You may find that discussion enlightening....

 

[cat snake]

A family member is a recovering lawyer (and very happy to see that part of his life behind him), and while you would in all likelihood win in a lawsuit, decisions can boil down to who's lawyer is best at digging up obscure precedent or pesenting a more cogent argument. And while such a case would not be high profile, you may get a judge who is on board with the latest desire to curb internet "excesses", and views his decisions/interpretations as a way to telegraph political aspirations. One line from a TV show (I believe it was Cagney and Lacey) has stuck with me for a very long time:

"There is a difference between justice and the law."

If the legal decisions were straight-forward, there would be little need for so many lawyers, which is why some lawsuits can be a crap-shoot, because you cannot predict with absolute certainty the outcome and events can take unexpected twists and turns. But I need to shut up as we are all pulling for the survival of the BOI. It is unfortunate that we need to see justice done by bringing the scammers to light through the BOI, for the law often fails in this regard as the scammers have themselves learned that there is a difference between justice and the law.

 

[KelliH]

I've spoken to my attorney about this subject as well. As the site owner of a public forum website, Rich is not responsible for what is posted here by the members. On the contrary, the member is the responsible party and is liable for what is said. The member(s) can be sued and might lose a case, but all Rich would be legally responsible for is any information (names, email addresses, posts, any other info about the member being sued) contained in his site's database.

That all being said, my attorney also informed me that, as has already been stated in this thread, just because a site owner is legally "in the right" does not mean that some angry person will not or cannot sue the site owner for libel. No way they would win a lawsuit like that, however if they have deep pockets they could still cost Rich a ton in legal fees and time.

I know all of this because I own a forum based website and wanted to make sure all my i's were dotted and my t's crossed. I am not a wealthy person, therefore I am very careful about what is allowed on my website as far as negative posts about businesses and/or breeders. This is why I value the BOI so much as a resource for our community... it has really done so much for our industry, even though it may be "poo pooed" by some.

Anyway, sorry for the long post!

 

[WebSlave]

Thank you for presenting arguments for why it would be a good idea for me to close down the BOI completely.

 

[KelliH]

Thank you for presenting arguments for why it would be a good idea for me to close down the BOI completely.

Oh my goodness. My post was meant to present the argument that it is so very important for members to contribute, and what a great tool the BOI is for us all. I'm very sorry if it seemed otherwise.

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah, whatever.... Honestly, I've been spending some time visiting other sites, and seeing a lot of advertisers that won't spend a dime here to help out. And I look at the number of members who used to be contributors who have decided that this site is not worth supporting financially any longer.

I have seen people set up their own forum sites and draw away substantial financial support from this site as a result. Heck, certainly they hoped that their own sites would be successful, and more power to them, but I guess there are unintended consequences involved that are now becoming apparent.

Over 60,000 registered members on this site and I'm not seeing any more then maybe 1,600 visit per day. No, I think I am accurately reading the writing on the wall. Far too many people are perfectly willing to allow me to take all the risk while they only come to the BOI when they need it for their own purposes without a concern in the world about helping it to survive.

Sorry, but all things considered, I am very discouraged by where we are right now.... I really hate the thought that I have wasted so much of my time and energy here when I could have instead spent it in better pursuits.

But it really is time for me to stop turning a blind eye towards what this industry really feels about the BOI......

 

[Twizted Paths]

I realize that after all the backstabbing and bs you've been put through keeping the BOI open for us that hoping you're going to keep it open is pretty much like pissing in the wind.
As much as I'd like it to stay open on at least a pay to play basis I can also see how you might decide it's still to much trouble.
Will you consider the cd option? Is it feasible? Yea, I know I'm grasping at straws...

 

[cat snake]

These kinds of situations are why my brother is an ex-lawyer. He had no stomach for many of the things that go on. In a sort-of reverse Midas touch, the law tends to poison everything it touches. No offense to you lawyer folks out there, it’s how the system is designed. Rich, I am sorry about the advertiser/member stats you shared. It is one thing to be the point man in fighting the Good Fight, but when you turn around and find that everyone you are defending won’t even guard your back (Fauna contributors excluded), it does make you wonder why you are bothering.

I am going to cut this story VERY short, but there was a tale of a peasant who stole the king’s horse, was caught and was then sentenced to death by the king. The peasant said, “Your Majesty, I would have brought your horse back in a year. I only took the horse to teach him how to speak so that you would be famous throughout the world for your talking horse.” The king suspected that the peasant was lying, but gave him a year to teach the horse to speak and if he failed, then he would be executed. The peasant’s friend said to him, “Are you crazy? You can’t make that horse talk!” To which the peasant replied, “If I had done nothing, I would be dead. Now I have a year and in that year’s time, I might die of natural causes, or the king might die, or the horse might die…or the horse might talk.”

That the advertisers have not supported you up to this point is rather despicable, but the individuals who frequent this site may be paying necessary bills first and seeing what is left over before they can put money to the BOI. Please wait until the end of the year to make your decision. I know we folks out here in cyberspace may be holding out faint hopes, but perhaps within the next 2 weeks this horse may talk…

Either way, thanks for all your efforts on behalf of us buyers who would not have known whom to trust if it were not for the BOI. Its demise would be a huge loss to herpers yet to discover the hobby.

 

[WebSlave]

I may just have the BOI open for paid members. I believe they paid for that privilege.

But honestly, I will expect the BOI to gradually fade away from disuse, as almost happened when I first tried the paid requirement years ago. All the arguments at that time presumed I was interested in saving the BOI. They will not apply this time.

Hey, I've done all I can and want to do. I've been asking for help and that has fallen short of what I had hoped for.

As for the suggestion about the CD, I seriously doubt enough money would come from that to make it worth my efforts. Hell, most people aren't even willing to pay $25 right now to keep it alive. How many CD's would I have to sell to make it worth the development and reproducing time, effort, and costs? Seems to me I would just be pissing away even more of my time....

 

[AF Exotics]

Long story short,cut to the chase,rubber meets the road,whatever catchy little sayings you want to use,I TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THE BOI previously,and that's the truth .So are a lot of others that come here on a daily basis,SOME OF THEM QUITE VOCAL WITH THEIR MOUTHS,but not their wallets .Everyone talks about tight times,yes,very true,but I guarantee everyone has spent at least 25.00 on this hobby this year and probably a lot more .


Here's one for the ages, "Actions speak louder than words" .I think enough people use this site,and enough abuse this site .

 

[WebSlave]

Long story short,cut to the chase,rubber meets the road,whatever catchy little sayings you want to use,I TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THE BOI previously,and that's the truth .So are a lot of others that come here on a daily basis,SOME OF THEM QUITE VOCAL WITH THEIR MOUTHS,but not their wallets .Everyone talks about tight times,yes,very true,but I guarantee everyone has spent at least 25.00 on this hobby this year and probably a lot more .


Here's one for the ages, "Actions speak louder than words" .I think enough people use this site,and enough abuse this site .

Yeah.... It's the abuse part that has taken it's toll. Odd, I was feeling pretty good about all this just a couple of days ago, but now I feel like the wind has just gone out of my sails.

 

[Slipmattic]

Although i am not a contributing member, i think it should be only open to those that contribute. But then again if you look at web slaves point of view, it's alot of risk for him with barely any to no reward....

 

[leezard]

I see arguments made that people contribute only when their own financial situation is stable. I'm sorry, but I'm throwing this out there for whomever to do with as they please.

When I first got wind from HHmore that the BOI was being shut down, I jumped on the band wagon. It has been VERY useful to me to help with my purchases and who to deal with -- or not. At the time I saw it, I was laid up with a broken leg and completely not able to work, so our own finances were pretty stiff. I showed the forum to my husband, and he didn't even think about it. Why?

Reptiles and their keeping are very important to me. Everyone has big hobbies that they spend money on, and this is definitely mine. To have a resource such as the BOI (or FC in its entirety, for that matter) simply disappear is, in my opinion, a huge loss to the community. There have been MANY hours and opinions that would be detrimental to lose, and starting new forums from scratch will take time again. For people to use and abuse this privilege is really too bad, since they really do not understand what goes into the upkeep of a project such as this one. Yes, we only contributed the minimum for a membership, but I feel NO regrets supporting this site, despite Rich seeing the numbers decrease so much. What I do regret is that many people don't "get it", and don't care to try.

If people really and truly regretted seeing the BOI disappear, something should have been done about it. It's a simple matter. It's funny how people are SO broke that they can't afford to help out a forum that they're dedicated to using, yet they can afford the new upcoming and latest "model" of ball python, or misting system, or entertainment unit or speakers for their car. Priorities, right? Obviously to many people, this isn't one of them.

Cut out a timmies a day for a month, and your membership is paid for.

Too bad, I think. I've rather enjoyed the use I've made on the forum, and the biggest regret I have is not helping sooner.