About the recent policy change concerning kingsnake.com..

[WebSlave]

It's been only 5 days when I got tired of all the BS concerning the overt conflict between kingsnake.com (JeffB) and FaunaClassifieds.com (me) and posted my change in policy concerning this area of interest. The post is still there for anyone missing it and wanting to check on the discussion. Some of the earlier posts were deleted in compliance with the policy change, so a true picture is no longer there of the total discussion.

Be that as it may, much of the earlier discussion was generally supportive of my decision, but now it appears that there is more dissention and disagreement with this policy. I make no bones about telling people that I will make mistakes trying to do what is best. That is just par for the course, I guess. And the arguments are persuasive, but not overwhelming in regards to my changing or rescinding the above mentioned policy.

The crux of the matter is, what is BEST for as many people as possible? My feelings on the matter is that things got carried away, and the resulting bad blood is benefiting no one. I had thought that by making the first move to bury the hatchet, perhaps things would calm down somewhat. However, some of the general consensus believes that it is a fruitless effort. Matter of fact, if anything, it may make things worse as there would now be no check on what the other site does, and no avenue for people to speak out about such things in a public forum. I don't know if I agree with this or not, but I cannot deny it's possibility. Even so, I don't know that this site would have much, if any, influence over the other site anyway.

The fact of the matter is, I don't really expect anything out of JeffB as far as a response is concerned. It was not done with that intent. The intent was to get this whole thing off of my shoulders so I could get on with other things. Two people just can't keep on taking punches at each other if one just leaves he arena.

But the fact that I stated that ANY discussion about kingsnake.com on FaunaClassifieds.com is now verboten is in some people's opinion a swing way too far in the other direction.

Is it? Is it really any of mine, or participants of this site's business what is going on over at another site? How many people would just consider this as petty sniping by a competing site?

Basically, I consider this site as belonging to all of you. I am just the caretaker. So I need some advice. What should this site be in concern with this sort of issue? I tend to favor bringing the focus back to just dealing with transactions between people concerning animals as well as the merchandise directly tied to the care and maintenance of those animals. Nothing more, nothing less. But the argument is being made that I have just as much right to do that as I would to be concerned about the actions of other websites within this type of business. I just haven't brought myself to the point of agreeing with that argument, however.

So let me lay some of this into YOUR hands. What SHOULD this site be to YOU? I am stating this in relation to kingsnake.com, but if this is true, then I would probably have a difficult time limiting discussions to only this website. Others would likley be scrutinized as well if their actions warranted it. So this would mean more than just a single other website.

I figure a poll is in order. You all can tell me what you think is best and what you want out of this site. I know what I prefer, as it is already on record, but I try real hard not to be heavy handed with decisions made here that affect everyone.

So I am asking your help and guidance in this issue.

Thanks.

 

[Pixie]

My 2 cents

I have been following the recent threads about the story between you and JeffB. When I first joined this site, I didn't know anything about a feud between the two sites.

I don't have any sides to choose as I have very little experience with either sites and the controversies related to them. I find it unfortunate that there would be such a rift between what seems to me two important web presences but it is what it is and not much can be done about it. I do applaud you Rich for taking the first step and refocusing your energies to more fruitfull endeavors.

As for the continuing discussions on these forums, I personally think it should stay in the subject of animals transactions. It seems to me that's what the BOI is all about and to start discussing websites that are related to herps, although pertinent, will not really do anything to advance the hobby. I can see it only dividing the herp community more.

Community websites will never be perfect and not everyone will be satisfied for whatever reason. If we start criticizing other websites and dragging such discussions out, rightfully or not, I would be very afraid that it would separate the herp community into "clans", each fighting for their own.

I don't expect the herp community to be a hippy love commune but I do hope that it keeps a generally respectfull atmosphere.

My little Canadian 2 cents!

Anny Harocopos

 

[Seamus Haley]

I'm not sure if you wanted written responses in addition to the votes, if you would rather leave it as your comments alone so as not to potentially taint the votes of people who arrive at the thread for the first time, I understand completely and have no problem with this message being deleted.

I personally voted for the third option, allowing discussion but removing anything that's really out of line, assuming that "out of line" would be those posts that have always triggered the standards for unacceptable postings (Vulgarity, outright lies, etc.) in the past.

I understand that you got pulled into more of a fight than you wanted to have through the posts of users of this website and have been pretty put upon and burdened with issues that originated with other people and I also agree that the herping community needs far more unity than it currently has, more of a general consensus will weed out bad guys more efficiently and allow everyone to do their own part to advance the hobby in positive directions...

I also think that Kingsnake, by being "the biggest" represents in many respects an unacceptable monopoly on the industry, it might not meet government monopoly control laws but it certainly is a resource that far too many have become too dependant on and has grown to the point where control over the indurtsy is not created internally by the participants, it's created to a great degree by Jeff Barringer and his team of moderators.

Fauna and Fieldherpers and ssnakess.com and a few others represent the largest repositories for online communication of reptile related conversations outside of KS, the only places where displeasure with the practices of the largest site can ever be voiced and actually SEEN by other people who might have similar feelings... The owners of these websites are under no obligation to continue to allow their sites to be used for discussions about this sort of thing, but when they allow an open forum devoid of unreasonable censorship in which to do so, they perform a great service to the community as a whole, the hobby as a whole.

It might seem like I'm overstating the control that KS has over the hobby... the production of the actual animals and products has nothing to do directly with Jeff or any of his moderators, but the dependency that many people have on the KS classifieds and the sheer volume of information that was presented by multiple sources (many now disgruntled) in the KS forums are often some of the first things found by new keepers, new hobbiests (new customers). The sheer ego of Jeff as his website has grown and many of the choices he has made about who he selected to moderate his website are a danger, a legitimate and honest danger to the hobby and to the community... do you really want new herpers learning that the industry was created solely by Jeff Barringer or that they can teach their snake to fetch the newspaper and come when it's called the way Kaplan says they can be without any sort of challenge to this authority whatsoever?

Kingsnake was not built by Jeff... Kingsnake was built by the people who saw an early meeting point, a focal area that could potentially grow to contain information avaliable to every level of keeper... It was built by the people who paid for their classified accounts and banner ads and participated in the forums and paid Jeff some money to host and link to their own websites. All the positive aspects of kingsnake were the result of the work of hundreds of individuals deciding to share what they knew, help one another out and maybe sell some animals in the process.

What kingsnake has become (and only in the last few years) is so far removed from the ideals that were shared by everyone who participated during the construction,everyone who helped to make the site what it is today (or was two years ago), even if they were just looking to chat about snakes at the time.

Fauna was founded and continues to operate primarily as a sort of internal and informal method of policing the industry, weeding out scam artists and deadbeats and, by pushing them out of the hobby, it makes what's left that much closer to the kind of industry the good guys want it to be... Kingsnake has a long track record of facilitating the exact opposite kinds of people, as long as they pay for their classifieds and don't make Jeff angry by questioning his self proclaimed king of herpetology title, they can rip off whoever they want to with no fear of reprisal whatsoever, it has become the antithesis of what Fauna represents... it is deceit, greed and courruption.

The BOI may be solely for the discussion of animal and supply sales... but Fauna is not just the BOI, it's also a general business discussion forum, a BS forum, a sound off forum, classified ads in a place where a known scammer won't be allowed to continue to post, husbandry and genetics and industry standards... It's a meeting place for the herping community once they find it.

The herping community has a right to know about the unethical actions taken by the industry's largest website.

It's really just a question of where that right to know will be allowed to play out... where the information will be free from unreasonable censorship and presented by individuals willing to take credit and responsibility for their own words will find that outlet for information so that the negative aspects are known and the information avaliable for others to make their own judgements about it, form their own opinions.

You, Rich, have no responsibility to any of this sites users, you feel a responsibility because you are an honest, upstanding and decent individual who shares many of the stronger moral views (herp related moral views) as this website's active and lurking participants... If you want to disallow kingsnake related discussions as they have happened in the past, it is your decision to make and the users have a choice of abiding by it or not using the site anymore. I for one, would continue to utilize this website for as long as you will allow me to do so, regardless of what restrictions are placed on posts. I might disagree to some extent with your choice about making KS and other web resources "off limits" but I fully reccognize that the burden of the decision and it's consequences are yours to carry and if it has really become simply more than you want to deal with, then you know what route you need to take.

Nothing will change in Jeff's attitude though... no matter which way you decide to go (I know you said it wasn't a motivating factor and I'm not trying to imply that it was but...) he'll still utilize the services of anti-pet trade fanatics as moderators, he'll still selectively delete ads that didn't violate his started TOS and leave others that do and he'll still rule his forums with an iron fist, allowing only HIS ideas to stand as being potentially correct. If that doesn't damage the industry on a scale larger than any Jesse Underhill or J Puker could possibly manage, I don't know what does.

So... I voted for the third option with the understanding that I can never fully empathize with the pressures that have been placed on you because of past similar allowances, but feeling very strongly that there needs to be someplace where the discussion is allowed and if it's not here... there isn't really anywhere else. There are lines that can and have been crossed in the past, related to KS and related to many other businesses, individuals or subjects and always in the past the judgement exhibited by Yourself and those you trust to moderate have been sound, removing or deleting only the extreme messages and leaving many reasonable and even unreasonable messages intact, allowing people to form their own opinions with the avaliable information and enough rope for people going too far to hang themselves with... I trust your judgement about where that line is and what crosses into unacceptable... But banning a subject entirely is very uncharacteristic, especially when the subject has been participated in on so many levels by so many people with such emotional conviction for as long as this one has.

Anyway... Just my thoughts, for what they're worth (or not worth as the observer might feel).

 

[Seamus Haley]

As for the continuing discussions on these forums, I personally think it should stay in the subject of animals transactions. It seems to me that's what the BOI is all about and to start discussing websites that are related to herps, although pertinent, will not really do anything to advance the hobby.

Halting detriments to the hobby allows the hobby to advance on it's own.

In order to allow advancement, there doesn't always have to be an obvious propulsion foreward, sometimes just removing something that's holding everything back will work.

Kingsnake's reccent policies and the enforcement of those policies has held individuals, information and the industry as a whole back, allowing information helps, in some small part, to remove that impediment...

If enough people of signifigant importance to Jeff Barringer let him know that they think his actions are out of line, eventually he'll change them.

When his banner advertisers and forum supporters and classified account holders drop and there's nobody willing to participate in the hosted chat events and his forums stand empty except for the unanswered questions of new keepers and page after page drops from his lists of informational resources and people find other web hosting services and are no longer linked off his main page... He'll either change his negative stances or kingsnake will simply dissapear.

The hard part for many people is figuring out exactly when this change in attitude happened... that subtle alteration from "It's a herping community online" to "It's MY herping community online" to "The entire online herping community falls under the domination and rule of the Mighty Barringer, conquerer of nations, defeater of armies, tyrant to the masses who is all powerful and terrible to behold"

 

[Pixie]

_

In order to allow advancement, there doesn't always have to be an obvious propulsion foreward, sometimes just removing something that's holding everything back will work.

I do understand what you are saying, I just don't think it's realistic. Knowing how big Kingsnake is, do you really think that a few threads here will change that? I think that is really what is at issue. It would be nice to have a place to discuss it for those who wish to but how much will come out of it? Will discussions over the issues really solve the matter and make so and so change their policies and everything perfect? I seriously doubt it.

Realistically, what would come out of these discussions... A lot of venting and complaining. People could be 100% right about what they are saying but it wouldn't make much of a dent in the running of that website. Money talks and I would be beyond surprised that all would pull their banner ads and classified accounts. It is one of the biggest if not the biggest vending site for reptiles and other animals. When people get the most responses to ads placed there, they can't afford to pull those ads when it's their livelyhood. A few may be able to afford to by well deserved reputations and long standing businesses in this industry but to those who don't fall in that category which is by far the larger population of accounts, they can't afford to take that step for principle.

When it comes to newbies opinions of different sites, I think anyone who has common sense will figure things out sooner or later. In my experience, I didn't like KS from the start. After being totally blasted on my first post and seeing that the community and atmosphere was quite unpleasant I didn't stay long! I browse it a bit now and then but it stops there. I quickly found other sites that were much more to my liking and I've seen that most others do to. I doubt that some threads on this site would do much more than what people figure out on their own.

I just don't see it bringing anything significantly positive.

Anny Harocopos

 

[meretseger]

I think this site and the threads on it can be very powerful. Things discussed on this site can and do directly affect KS. Otherwise, why would they have bothered to block people from saying 'faunaclassifieds'?

I don't like the idea of the two sites 'fighting', but if it weren't for this place, I wouldn't know that KS had been 'acting up' the way it had, and it made me rethink the way I'm going to do business on the internet (you know, when I have something to sell). So I guess I pretty much agree with Seamus, we should be able to talk about it within reason, just because we don't have anywhere else to. Not talking about it is sort of like ignoring the elephant in the room even though it's stepping on you.

Erin Benner

 

[Seamus Haley]

Just one thing I want to restate because it, in retrospect, got lost amid my inability to write anything under 200 words and I just noticed this when reading the new replies and having to scroll through my own post and very nearly breaking the scroll wheel on my mouse as I did so...

If Rich decides that he doesn't want it discussed here, then I fully intend to comply with this and continue using the website for as long as he lets me do so. I don't feel that he "owes" the users of this site anything, not even a place to discuss things, quite the opposite, we owe him an enormous debt of gratitude for providing the site and oppurtunities that he does.

I would like to be able to discuss KS on this website because I see this website as being one of the few if not only place I could do so without fear of having my thoughts edited or removed, but if it really is causing headaches for Rich or having detrimental effects on the amount of time he has to devote to other more pleasureable or profitable activities to have to babysit KS related threads and remove stuff that goes too far, then I support his decision to subtly alter the rules. Might not like it, might even disagree with it... but I'd support it and comply by it because I enjoy this website and reccognize that the whole thing might be more trouble for HIM than it's worth.

I do still feel quite stongly that this site has a great potential to produce change, even in the monolithic giant of herp related websites, most people seem to have an epiphany when some of the details of past occurances or behind the scenes manuverings are revealed to public scrutiny... drops in a bucket perhaps, but it builds up over time and it gets, at the very least, the important message about the dangers of financial overdependance out to anyone who cares to read the posts about yanked accounts.

Sometimes I honestly wonder what possible logical reasoning might have prompted some of Jeff's actions, they seem so blatantly self destructive, almost as if he wants to obliterate his biggest customer base and his founding customer base... But if he refuses to listen to a single voice pointing out some pitfalls he hasn't avoided, maybe he'll listen to ten, or fifty, or three hundred and it seems that many of the people most inclined to voice their concerns about his actions are those who are more involved with the industry, even if those who have a major financial stake in the continued success of KS choose to remain silent for the time being.

It really does boil down to Rich's decision on the matter, everything else is just uninvolved opinions... But I do have to ask, If not here, then where?

 

[bmm]

I would agree that kingsnake.com shouldn't be discussed IF the fued between you and them or whatever it was, was the only issue.

But it's not. In fact, until I came over here to see what others though of kingsnake.com, I didn't really even know there was a specific fued. More than a "few" of us have gotten banned from kingsnake.com FOR NO reason!!! I am only of many who didn't break the TOS and was still banned WITHOUT explanation, email, or anything. And when some of us are paying kingsnake money or have been there for years giving input and making friends, this is certainly worthy of discussion, somewhere.

I could understand you wanting to just let it go if it was just a "personal" fued. But its not. This business has told people they cannot give them feedback, this website has told people that if you don't agree with us, we will shut you up or shut you down. And in my mind the BOI has always been a place to warn others about things like this. To warn people that you can't cover up your dirty deeds, your unfair practices, someone will let the community know on the BOI.

bmm
Marisa Brophy

 

[Darin Chappell]

Rich,

You already know what I think about this. I am in favor of allowing disscussion on the subject, but I think a serious disscussion, without all of the sniping (of which, I too have been guilty in the past) is in order.

KS is more than a thorn in our side from a web wars perspective. It now serves as the very matrix in which a large percentage of reptile business is conducted. How can it NOT be pertinant to our business here, or any where else? When JeffB allows pro PETA/HSUS people to be mods on his site, we need to know about it. When he flagrantly violates the wishes of those whom he suggests he serves with his site, we need to know about it. When he attacks others for daring to suggest there might be a better way to do business in this industry, we NEED to know about it!

Now, you and I, and others, already know all about JeffB and his temper tantrums. But what about all of the people who sign up on this site every day? How can they know about these things unless there is SOMEPLACE that spells it all out for them? They certainly won't be learning it from KS!! If we don't have a place to actually discuss the very real problems (read that as "threats to our industry") here on Fauna, then where will it be found?

As I told you before, I will not address the issue in any way except where you allow it to be discussed (as in this thread). Whatever you decide, is what I'll do, because as bad as KS is, this site is too good to pass up for me. I just want to encourage you to do whatever you think is best for this site as a whole and thank you in advance for doing so!

 

[shadowlandz]

Kingsnake is a business dealing mostly with reptiles.
The reason the BOI is here is to give people a place
to deal with questionable and bad business dealings
in the reptile business.

I keep hearing this word feud coming up all the time as
if it a personal thing between Rich and the folks at
Kingsnake. Lets face facts folks. The reason that Kingsnake
doesn't like Fauna and any of it's associated sites is because
it works by letting people state facts about how they have
been treated. No company is going to like this type of feedback
and they will do whatever they can to make it go away.

The fact is that all of you have a right to tell the truth about
any company or business that you do business with. I've
heard plenty of names mentioned here of companies that
sometimes don't do well shipping or keeping track of orders
but the companies still support this site and advertise here. Facts
are facts.

No business that falls within the criteria of this site, should be eliminated from its scrutiny. Lets just use a bit of common sense in how we deal with it. If someone has a legitimate gripe then it should be heard.

Just my opinion.

 

[HerpVenue]

While I agree we should be able to talk about other websites..
I think it should be VERY limited.

As in, if someone gets ripped off etc etc etc.

No more of the whinning and complaining about a sites policies and procedures.
Or how they moderate said site. yes I am guilty of this as well.

For example:
mario stinso's site. No matter if he is bad mouthing the BOI all over his site. No matter if he bans and deletes anything and everyone that disagrees with him. No matter if he is spreading lies like Ken and I have been banned and he showed you all who is boss. all that does not matter. he did not rip anyone off that I know of.
so we should go ahead and let stuff like that go. We do not like a site we do not have to go there. We do not like the service or the food in a restaurant...we do not have to go there.

The BOI was not set up to make the world a better place.
The BOI was set up to keep people from getting ripped off.

I mean we are going as far as telling people how many times to feed their animals etc etc etc.. I think sometimes we go too far.
If someone wants to buy an obviously underfed animal that is their choice. They need to do a little research.

As aforementioned the BOI got started because of a bounced check. YOU wanted to keep people from getting ripped off. What does another sites policies have to do with anything? What does the advice given on said site have to do with anything?

 

[Darin Chappell]

Ritchie,

I absolutely agree with you as what you said there pertains to the BOI. It should ONLY be for the declaration of facts concerning the buying and selling of reptiles, supplies, etc. However, as has been pointed out by others, this site is so much bigger than just the BOI these days.

If we are going to limit the entirety of fauna to the mindset of what the purpose of the BOI was established to fulfill, what about all of the other forums that obviously have nothing to do with that original intent? The list has been made elsewhere, so I won't list them again, but look at the Forum Map and just see how many aspects of THIS site were created by Rich, enjoyed by many, and encouraged by us all, which have absolutely NOTHING to do with the narrowly defined purpose of the actual BOI segment of this site.

Surely, as a site dedicated to the betterment of the industry as a whole (which I think fauna serves, wonderfully!), there could be one area that is set aside for honest, non-whiney discussions about how KS (and other sites) add or detract from the herp hobby/business/industry as a whole. I agree that things got petty, and I want that stuff to stop. But will we throw the baby out with the bathwater on this?? I believe that surely SOMETHING can be salvaged which will fulfill the needs of both camps here.

 

[John Albrecht]

It's not just about you.

While I appreciate that you want to steer your site away from an area that is sullied I think it would be very ostriche (splg?) of you to pretend that a problem doesn't exist. There are a lot of people and businesses that are banned on Kingsnake because of issues that have nothing to do with your site. The whole Gerry B thing got a huge number of people banned along with many other issues that KS caused and there does need to be a place for people to air their opinions about such events. You don't personally have to carry the torch for any efforts for or against kingsnake but what kingsnake has done boils down to being what are widely regarded as bad business practices. Being that they are engaged in the herp business it seems only right to be able to talk about those practices and the results of those practices here. Just my .015

 

[HerpVenue]

Surely, as a site dedicated to the betterment of the industry as a whole (which I think fauna serves, wonderfully!), there could be one area that is set aside for honest, non-whiney discussions about how KS (and other sites) add or detract from the herp hobby/business/industry as a whole

Like I said. Very Limited.

You don't personally have to carry the torch for any efforts for or against kingsnake but what kingsnake has done boils down to being what are widely regarded as bad business practices.

Bad business practices should be posted on. BUT

What are business practices?
The classifieds are a business practice.
The banners are a business practice.
Advertising is a business practice.
The forums onthe other hand are free. No one pays to be on the forum. So people getting banned from the forums have nothing to do with business.

 

[John Albrecht]

I disagree

The forums are not free. The cost is passed on to anyone that purchases merchandise from an advertiser on KS.

 

[WebSlave]

360 some views of this thread and only 53 votes cast. I guess I left an option out on the voting form. Or are most of the viewers here from Palm Beach County, FL??

 

[Rick Staub]

One less view since I viewed it from 2 computers. lol

Only about 50% of registered voters vote in a presidential election. Apathy, the American way.

 

[meretseger]

I voted once, but I think I've viewed it like 6 times now just to see what everyone says. Do you have a way of tracking unique views?

Erin Benner

 

[WebSlave]

I don't know if that would be better or worse to know. Almost 4,000 registered members here and only 50+ people actually even looked at the poll??

According to my visitor log 407 registered members have visited since midnight. It doesn't keep track of guests, but they can't vote anyway.

Maybe there is a lot to be said about the Captain Bligh (sp?) approach.

 

[dwedeking]

My $.02

I think you should have kept the WebWars forum as an outlet for people not as part of the BOI. Let them have their discussions concerning website/forum politics.

The BOI would be the place for "XYZ.com deleted my account and refuses to refund my advertising money" type website issues.

On a personal level Rich, I think there are many more productive and REWARDING things in this hobby and what you are doing with this site than fighting with Jeff B. and your post where you stated you were going to drop this was very enlightened.