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Abusive Mishandling, Caution- Graphic Video

To sum that up, Deborah apparantly believed that twinning is the result of a genetic tendency rather than a result of the physical action involved in the fertilization process and wished to attempt to duplicate the production of neonates that were splitting the yolk contents between two developing offspring and the undersized runt failure to thrive snakes that resulted. I would call that position alone morally reprehensible and biologically irresponsible, it conflicts directly with my stance that anyone seeking to breed animals should make every effort to only contribute positively to the captive populations
Well, in some species (including our own), there does seem to be a genetic predisposition toward twins (perhaps you have heard the comment "twins run in our family"); so it may not be as far fetched as it sounds. On the other hand, and in agreement with what you have said, why encourage an aberrancy that (in snakes, at least) produces smaller babies...especially if those babies have special needs that one is not prepared to meet. Inbreeding, or line breeding, to reproduce various color/pattern anomolies has become accepted as the norm...and is done quite irresponsibly by breeders at many levels (don't get me started on the far too prevalent habit of purchasing sibling pairs with the intent of breeding); but what is the sense of encouraging twinning? To get more babies out of a clutch? (only a benefit if you don't experience more losses as a result of the smaller babies) To show that there is a genetic tendency, and to encourage it? (but again, for what purpose...and what is the impact on the snakes?) To gain that 15 minutes of fame for being the one to have a whole clutch of twins?
Maybe it is narrow minded of me, but I don't see the benefit. Done in the interest of research, maybe...but rarely does a hobbyist breeder even conduct a meaningful study (involving sufficient sample size, proper controls, data collection, etc)
 
Well if she learned anything from all this , It is to not video anything and to surely not post any video's she might make..

I can agree that it was likely her ignorance that was the problem . As for the rest of it well Seamus your entitled to your Opinion but I can't say as I agree with all of it...Randy
 
"We will be holding these back to prove out that the twin gene and see if the dam, sire or hatchlings throw more twins in the future... stay tuned!"
That's just silly. :rolleyes:

Identical twins are a random occurance. There is no genetic link nor genetic predisposition from one generation to the next.
 
IloveSnakes1234 said:
This video is interesting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1STOyZNNtPo
The guy had triplets in 8 eggs...
Actually he had 2 sets of triplets, and 6 sets of twins...all in the same 33 egg clutch. The odds of something like that occuring are incredible to say the least.

I'm not sure if you're trying to make the implication that there is some sort of genetic link here...but there's not.
 
He said in the video, prior to pulling them out, that they were ready to come out.

But yeah, a bad idea unless you are extremely familiar with the species you are working with. And even then I would personally never do it.
 
WoW...someone felt compelled to post a link to this on one of my posts.

I know Seamus feelings towards me at that time..so, no surprise here. :eek:

But food for thought Seamus is that I did practice on a cavader (you can order snakes from a science store) I knew the pipe and how to put the food down into the stomach. My Vet had shown me when he wormed a "gift" snake for me.

I really don't know what to say, about the video, other than the first feeding went like silk and wouldn't you know it, the person that was filming the whole mess just happened to mess up the good video so that left the one that fouled up..sigh. I wasn't really thinking about anyone's opinions when I let my friend film the process. I didn't realize that the snake community had some very "strongly opinioned" people that condemned the procedure.

fyi..while I was feeding the twins, there was also a 30 gram snake that did thrive and evenually fed on it's on after a few times with the Pinky Pump. It has been sold and I have received no complaints that it is not eating (I dare anyone to say I would "prefer" to use a PP. Honestly, I tried to assist feed..they were too darn small! I hadn't had any experience with something the size of a worm that didn't want to eat. The PP went down smoother. if I had felt they were big enough for pinky rats, I would have done it that way, because those things are EXPENSIVE and I brought 4 of the things so that each snake could have their own and not be contaminated)

As to the twins remark...line breeding can sometimes bring about desired results. Not enough is known about the snakes at this point for me to make a firm statement that this or that snake can't throw twins and I wanted to find out. I don't see anything stupid about my curiousity.

Thanks everyone. You will be happy to know that I have mastered the art of assist feeding and have successfully done it with the current twins (but it must be admitted that they weren't as small as the first).
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
Out of curiosity, Deb...
Do you let buyers know what snakes have been force/assist fed before they purchase?


It's in the snake's feeding records. They get the feeding record when they purchase the snake, but the record shows only the last 5 feedings.

I haven't hidden it. A couple of forums/friends do have a rundown of what I am doing with my hatchlings and which ones are assist fed (I may have mentioned it).

I do keep in contact with my customers and I am available if any issues arise. Is there some specific reason that they NEED to know this, if the snake is eating on its own and gaining weight (I suppose I can make specific note of it in the records if necessary)? Is there some kind of regulation?
 
deborahbroadus said:
It's in the snake's feeding records. They get the feeding record when they purchase the snake, but the record shows only the last 5 feedings.

I haven't hidden it.

I wasn't implying that you hid anything. I just wanted to know if you make buyers aware before they make a purchase.

deborahbroadus said:
I do keep in contact with my customers and I am available if any issues arise. Is there some specific reason that they NEED to know this, if the snake is eating on its own and gaining weight (I suppose I can make specific note of it in the records if necessary)? Is there some kind of regulation?

It's more so that some people do not like purchasing snakes that were difficult feeders and had to be assist/force fed (I've actually had this happen on two occasions with Cornsnakes). Some people think that bad feeders will produce bad feeders and would rather not take the risk.
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
I wasn't implying that you hid anything. I just wanted to know if you make buyers aware before they make a purchase.



It's more so that some people do not like purchasing snakes that were difficult feeders and had to be assist/force fed (I've actually had this happen on two occasions with Cornsnakes). Some people think that bad feeders will produce bad feeders and would rather not take the risk.

I see, thanks for the advice. :yesnod:
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
Some people think that bad feeders will produce bad feeders and would rather not take the risk.

Behavior definitely has it's roots in the genetic makeup of an animal.

Stimulus -> Response and the specifics of the response are a result of evolutionary pressures that left a particular behavior as a successful one.

So the idea that the feeding trigger for an individual animal has a genetic basis is a valid one but should not be mistaken for more than it is. The health of the animal, the type and presentation of the prey item, the environmental conditions, any seasonal predispositions and countless other difficult to measure factors all end up impacting the resulting yes/no breakdown of if an animal eats what we want to feed it when and how we want it to eat it.

In nature, environmental pressures end up making gradual changes to the instinctive responses of a species as "failure to thrive" animals never make it into the breeding pool to pass along whatever factor it was about them which was unsuccessful.

In captivity, our control and influence produces a strange and seemingly contradictory set of intensified genetic pressures- people constantly try to breed with a goal of producing a specific trait that they find desireable, while simultaneously expending a remarkable amount of effort to keep animals alive even when they exhibit a trait which would certainly be described as negative. Captive cinditions are obviously very different than wild conditions, so the quality of a given trait (physical, behavioral, physiological, whatever) needs to be judged using a different and seperate set of merits but... Well, to use ball pythons as an easy example; if an animal is predisposed towards feeding triggers that make it difficult or expensive to maintain in captivity, the logical conclusion is that it should not be encouraged or propogated. If the only way to get calories inside an animal is force/assist feeding and all reasonable avenues of behavioral manipulation have been exhausted, then it's not an animal which should be added to the captive gene pool. Though behavioral tendencies are far less easily defined and identified than simple recessives controling color or pattern and it's difficult to be certain of the exact cause of an unsolved feeding issue, it should be treated as potentially genetic. Culling is my solution, since it removes the questions and possibilities raised by selling an animal strictly as a pet or keeping it alive in your personal posession, but opinions will vary about that.

All that said, I'm not entirely clear on why anyone would bump this thread. I still believe that the actions which were shown in the video never should have happened and am still disinclined to be real forgiving of anything similar, no matter how much or little a person may know or how well intentioned or innocent of maliciousness they might be... I also really doubt that Deborah has made a habit of those mistakes. Being criticized in detail tends to result in a pretty sharp learning curve.
 
Seamus Haley said:
All that said, I'm not entirely clear on why anyone would bump this thread.

Because it was brought up again in another thread....and the woman still claims she did it right, I suppose is why. :shrug01:
 
I doubt that Deborah, (sorry, I don't know her), would intentionally try and harm her investments. I think she probably "winged it"---and I hate to say it---I do too sometimes.

But--for all you tube feeders---here's a new trick I just learned---called "hooking".

Open up a BP's mouth---point a thawed hopper down the bp's throat. Then--press the mouse against the bp's upper row of teeth--making sure that it's caught in the long, rear-facing teeth.

Once it's caught in the teeth--place the bp in its enclosure. The natural tendency of a bp will be to swallow that mouse---with hardly any stress. It works like a charm. Once you get a meal or two in them---they usually take off.
 
Probably--but there's no metal tube.

edit-added: Cat-don't make me whip out the Dewey decimal system!
 
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