Adenovirus questions

[draggintails]

Myself and many people are waiting impatiently for the ELISA (antibody) test as this is the test to prove a negative dragon and will show exposure. However, this test has not been developed yet. This is the only test that would be used to establish a negative colony. We have several labs in our country working on it, it has not been successful yet.

I spoke to the head of Texas A&M virology/microbiology veterinarian Dr. Arturo Angulo on 4/25/08 at 10:30am and he says "I know of no ELISA test for adenovirus, it is not available".

Florida (the lab I work with) is in contact with all the vet labs in the country and Europe who has had involvement with ATA and there is still no word on an established antibody test. We need an ELISA before vaccine, it is not that research is not being done but necessary steps are not capable of being completed with our technology at this time. It is not even a topic of not enough money being thrown at R&D unfortunately for this crucial test.

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello,

There is the problem of money with Research as Dr. Jacobson has told me quite a few times since we have been corresponding via email. He has said right now, that the U. of Florida is not pursuing any ELISA interests due to non interest & not enough availability to gain grant money, etc. There is plenty of technology but reptiles are far down on the list. The cattle, horses & pig industry will be tested long before the reptiles, so it is all a matter of priority not what is already available.
The Texas A & M does perform ELISA testing, specifically the Bovine, but no reptile ELISA testing as of yet according to their DNA lab information. I have a friend who got a necropsy done there & the report had information on the report as to what types of tests were offered there & the ELISA was one of them.
You all can continue to wait for a vaccination, but I am not. I however, know it will take years to gain a vaccination & to be sure that it is effective.
I personally don't want to sit around & wait because we should start to try & prevent it now & breeding irresponsibly without testing definitely will not help decrease the positive population. Why does everyone want to wait & continue to add to the problem, that is what I don't understand.
Every vet states not to breed a positive dragon, but if you don't test you wont know if your dragon is positive or negative unless they are manifesting symptoms, etc that prompts you to test.
The fecal EM & the PCR are good tests & should be used. There is nothing wrong with either one of them. It is better than denying there is a problem & just continuing on with how you do things as an excuse not to test at all.
Sorry but that is just the stance that I have taken on this issue & will continue to take on it. I will not continue to just wait, when it could be years & years.

Tracie

 

[Valley Dragons]

We need ALL the facts...

Okay...this is where I have a problem. If you are able to breed adeno-positive, symptom-free dragons to other positive, symptom-free dragons...and produce positive, symptom-free offspring...who then go on to breed and produce more positive, symptom-free offspring...then what is the problem? Why the big push to produce only negative dragons - if that is even possible? Seriously...I wonder if this is as futile as trying to breed herpes simplex 1 (or insert common viral infection of choice) out of humans...it ain't gonna happen, and if we try to isolate groups of animals, then they will be that much more susceptible to complications if they ever do come in contact with the virus...which is highly likely due to the supposed ease of transmission. Talk about a big possible back-fire!

Once again, I'd like to know how many people ACTUALLY have adeno-positive dragons with health issues. I'd like to know who has produced sickly adeno-positive babies. I'd also like to know how many people have sickly adeno-negative dragons. I'd like to know how many people loose dragons due to stupidity and poor husbandry and automatically blame adenovirus. Show me those facts.

(I'm not directly addressing you, Tracie, I'm just speaking in general so don't be offended.)

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

Simple theory...

Okay, let me put this another way. Let's say that 50% of breeders strive for an adeno-negative colony. Each dragon is carefully tested for adenovirus, and then after being proven negative, they are added into a colony of other negative dragons. Several generations of negative dragons are produced, and all seems hunky-dorey.

Meanwhile, the other 50% of breeders continue to breed and produce adneo-positive dragons. They may have a few fatalitites along the way, but each generation produces dragons with a stronger resistance to adenovirus. Eventually, none of the dragons show any serious symptoms anymore.

Now let's say that both adeno-positive and adeno-negative breeders attend the same reptile show. Many people come by... petting, touching, holding various dragons...moving from table to table. And adeno...which is only affectively killed by high heat (or so I've been told) is impervious to the hand sanitizer that is commonly used at shows. (I don't think steam cleaning one's hands in between tables will ever really catch on...). So...adenovirus is easliy transmitted from the healthy adeno-positive dragons to the healthy adeno-negative dragons. What do YOU think will happen? The same thing that happened to native americans a few hundred years ago when they were exposed to "white man" diseases, of which they had no immunity. It could be devastating for the dragons who have no immunity to adeno.

My personal opinion is that we need to just let this whole thing play out. Yes, there will be some losses...but I think our dragons will be better off in the end if they are allowed to develop a natural immunity to the virus. So unless you were planning on shipping each of the dragons that you produce in a neat little plastic bubble...then perhaps it is time to start rethinking what you are doing. You will NEVER, EVER get every breeder to test. You will NEVER, EVER get everyone who has a positive dragon to put it down. Therefore, you will NEVER, EVER eliminate adenovirus. Tracie (and others), I'm not trying to dash your hopes and dreams...but I feel that someone needs to be the voice of reason and practicality here.

Once again, I am not trying to offend anyone. I'm just trying to open up minds to other possibilities and reasoning.

Jamie

 

[draggintails]

It was posted on a bearded dragon adeno thread that TX A&M had an ELISA test available. Texas A&M does not have an ELISA test for adeno in bearded dragons and that was information that should be corrected.

I am uncertain if you are speaking to me or if you are making a general statement to people who do not want to test, however..the EM and PCR are good tests to show a positive dragon and it is good to use them, certainly.

There are people waiting for the ELISA test to prove dragons that have negative results from PCR and EM. PCR and EM can not prove out a negative, you must have an antibody test there is no debate between the experts on this statement.. all the virology veterinarians involved in this agree. Adeno is an occult virus, which means it hides..they can be positive but not shedding it in the fecal at time of sample. I dont want to get into this as this is elementary information and beated to death.

Regarding the ELISA test, they can't get it to grow in the petri dish but the ball is rolling on it..it is not successfull yet, I used the word technology when I meant to say knowledge..they dont have the knowledge to get it to reproduce outside of host. Regarding research..we do not have a federal grant for ATA research itself, it hasn't been applied for....nor do we have donations coming in to U of FL.

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello,

I don't intend to beat everything to death, either. I did not say that Texas A & M had ELISA for reptiles. I said that they had ELISA for Bovine.
Due to not enough people wanting to do long term testing, we don't have enough proof of the fecal & PCR can prove out a negative. If a breeder tests every couple of months, for 2 years, & then does a few PCR's & gets negatives all of the way around, I would say that it is a pretty good probability of having a negative dragon. I realize how they shed, & will shed at varying rates, but sometime in that period, they would shed that out. The liver seems to be a good holding spot as that is the organ responsible for filtering everything out. If a person is faithful with testing, & tests often enough you will catch it shedding at one point or another. You can't catch it shedding if you wont even test.
Waiting for the ELISA is like waiting for an AIDS cure. It most likely will never happen. So that will be the excuse that everyone is going to use to not even make an attempt to test. If they are working on the ELISA so diligently, then why doesn't Dr. Jacobson, the leading authority on it, request & petition for grant approval? That would help out alot.
I do know the reality of things. I realize that most of the established breeders do not want to test. That is fine, whatever, do what you want.
My goal is to educate. The adeno is not a natural pathogen that should be found in them, naturally. Why do we want to continue to breed them, & expose them to pathogens & virus' if it really is not necessary??
Sure if they build up an immunity to it & get stronger, that would be good. That would take a long time, depending on the strain that they contracted.
I know alot of people who have very sick dragons with adeno, & others with adeno that were sick, & after spending thousands of dollars to save them, they pulled through.
I also know people with healthy dragons but have not been tested. They are not planning on breeding, so they may or may not test.
There is a decent amount of problems with husbandry yes, especially lighting. However, the lighting really is not all the consumer's fault with all of the poor UVB lights now, that emit low wavelength frequency & are causing eye problems too. I don't blame most on adeno until absolutely everything else is ruled out, a vet visit is done, blood tests, etc. Then, that is usually the last thing that I suggest, is to get them tested. It is surprising how many actually do decide to test & they come back positive.
I just don't think it is acceptable to just have a wait & see attitude with a known pathogen. It is not accepted in alot of other species of animals to just spread virus or disease around when breeding.
I wont change my stance on this issue.

Tracie

 

[draggintails]

" There is a lab at Texas A & M that does the Elisa test which is accurate as well."
Tracie[/QUOTE]

This is the quote I was referring to as well as the one on Beardeddragon.org stating that Texas A&M is doing this test now..and originally where I saw the information..can't seem to find that one this morning to quote it, it appears to have gone, but I am not stupid and I did read it.

You were not referring to a bovine elisa test or you would have said this in the post. I would not expect you to be speaking of mammalian ELISA testing information on an adenvirus bearded dragon forum, these mammalian tests have been around forever and are common knowledge and most of us has had a few. You received incorrect information from a source without verifying it....that is a better response. I am done with this topic.

Again, I am uncertain who you are speaking to and if you are making a general statement to those who have not tested then I understand..however , I did not wait around to do testing, I have done this already..and I do believe I sent you a few of my results to look at and verify, my computer says you received the email and attachments. I am uncertain as well if you are addressing me when you say you will not change your stance on this issue but I have not encountered anyone asking this of you, so that is odd to say such a thing. Disregard this paragraph if it was not directed to me.

I was very literal in my original post..I am waiting for the ELISA test to prove negative dragons, if you have dragons with negative test results..those are the people who are waiting to verify a negative status.
I called A&M for submission guidelines to verify the negatives and was told we do not have this test yet. It was put out there to save someone else waiting to confirm their negatives in this way a bunch of hassle and time and phone calls. I am not spending $400 per dragon to PCR over and over when I can spend roughly $50 on one ELISA test when we can get our hands on it and be done with it. No, absolutely not...one or two or more negative PCR's and EM's do not guarantee the negative animal, it is an occult virus, the test is designed to show a positive animal. No one will test one animal every few months. If a negative colony is the goal, then it must be done properly without guessing, we can't prove the negatives at this time.

I try one more time here: We don't need a grant for an ATA ELISA test, this is not part of research, it is an established test, just not for this particular virus (ATA). We can't get it to grow in the petri dish. We need a grant for research, not one for getting a virus to reproduce in a petri dish, that is simple and doesn't cost anything...but it is not reproducing..that is the holdup. The stupid thing will not reproduce under command. Dr. Jacobson did not put in a grant for research because of lack of interest...a grant for research is different than the petri dish thing.

It is ashame for all the controversy and everyone wanting to sort this out only a few of us actually asked for research and for grants..very, very sad. It seems to me that hundreds maybe thousand(s) would have phoned it or emailed in.



PS, the liver is not a good or bad holding spot of the virus and if one thought to do a Liver biopsy to diagnose that is not totally accurate..as explained why in the paper from UofF. Positive PCR fecaled and EM fecaled dragons have had no ATA in the liver sample upon biopsy. Confirmed in NJ,IL,LA,CA. It is a stupid virus that does not play by the rules.

 

[mikey]

" There is a lab at Texas A & M that does the Elisa test which is accurate as well."
Tracie

This is the quote I was referring to as well as the one on Beardeddragon.org stating that Texas A&M is doing this test now..and originally where I saw the information..can't seem to find that one this morning to quote it, it appears to have gone, but I am not stupid and I did read it.

You were not referring to a bovine elisa test or you would have said this in the post. I would not expect you to be speaking of mammalian ELISA testing information on an adenvirus bearded dragon forum, these mammalian tests have been around forever and are common knowledge and most of us has had a few. You received incorrect information from a source without verifying it....that is a better response. I am done with this topic.

Hello,

Alan, taking your dragon to the vet would be an entirely different test. That would be either a PCR or an Elisa test, both of which are blood, tissue & DNA/RNA test, or a cloacal swab. Then, that sample would be sent to the U. of Florida in Gainesville, or possibly to Texas A & M. I am sure that there are a couple of other labs that do PCR in the US, but are hard to find sometimes.

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/viewtopic.php?f=61&p=609347

Hello,

Yes, everyone is correct!
However, the more a person does testing, & continues to get negatives, the more confident one can be that they have a negative dragon. Also, you can confirm a negative fecal through doing a PCR or an Elisa test, too but that costs more.

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/...sid=1af3e17bfad22875d796b929565ac47f&start=15

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello,

I am not directing anything towards anyone, period. I start a society to try & help & all that comes of it is people getting mad.
I am only stating that Texas A & M does have an Elisa test, but it is not for reptiles. After viewing a necropsy report it was stated on the bottom of the page as having had an Elisa while mentioning that the animal was tested negative for Adeno. So, that was when I contacted them when I found that out to find out, they said it was unfortunately only for livestock, as they were just listing the testing services that were able to be done at the University. I never one stated it was for reptiles, specifically but when it is stated on the bottom of a necropsy test that is pretty misleading. I was hoping that someone at the University would be able to give more information or was working on it. Apparently not yet. I don't see the harm in mentioning that they do have technology over there that could be hopeful for future testing.
It probably is not going to reproduce in a petri dish that is most likely why Dr. Jacobson has not done anything with that because of that reason. He has told me just recently in emails saying that the ELISA is a costly project & one that he personally does not see it being used or having any value. He also stated that they have produced several antibodies for several different reptile species, but none for the bearded dragons. He added that it costs roughly $7,000 per species to develop it also.
So my question is that I am getting mixed data. Jacobson claims that there is no value in an ELISA & you say that it is the cureall & the answer to everything? So which is it? I prefer to take his answers & information more seriously right now.
So, if you have this information from vets who are putting their efforts into developing this antibody, then, who are they & are they willing to share their information?
Also, no I never did receive any tests to look at, that had any test data. I know you did do some testing & we had discussed that but I never got any attachments. I agree, no one will spend that much. However, if no one does any testing at all, then we will never learn everything that we need to know about this crazy virus as well as the transmission.
In the report from the U. of Florida it specifically states that breeders should disclose to the consumer that their dragons are positive as that is the ethical thing to do. The more tests that are done, the better chance you have of catching a shedding period which they will eventually shed it at one point or another. Probably during their most active period of the year, breeding season. That is when they are most stressed.
Some of the positive dragons that I have worked with have had liver troubles, so it causes havoc all over the body, but the liver filters it out.
So how do you know if you have a positive dragon if you wont test, so then you can't disclose that to the consumer because you don't know the answer to that yourself.
People should at least make an effort.


Tracie

 

[Beardiepal]

I don't think anyone's mad

Tracie- I really don't think anyone's mad...just having a discussion. I have to say that Valley's comments are quite interesting cncerning the natural immunity thing. I am trying to understand all of this and will have to reread all the posts. I admire all of you for your knowledge & opinions. It could be that once exposed always positive. But due to a good immune system, it never grows into an illness.....if we don't allow exposures then perhaps our dragons will always be susceptible because their body has never recognized adenovirus as foreign to themselves. Then there is never a memory response for the virus, like the way our B cells form antibodies, and our T cells engulf any cell without the self markers on them. Because then T cells can recognize the virus in the future, as well as B cells, and mount an even stronger immune response due to the first exposure. And then this is when exposure becomes the issue... when our dragons are stressed or fighting a pinworm infection, or on antibiotics that effect some cells of the immune system in negative ways, if never exposed then the virus has the opportunity to cause illness. Just my thought B

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello,

I agree Beth, mad was just the only word that came to mind. I knew that it would be an uphill battle when I started this, that is why I took my time doing so. It is very frustrating. All I am asking for is help from larger breeders to continue to gather data to get things done, but without any tests, we cannot, or the vets cannot get data to learn more about it. That is a pretty simple analysis of the situation. We need more cooperation but at this point, we definitely wont get it.
I do think it could be possible for them to get an immunity to it, as long as the virus does not mutate into another type of virus which can sometimes happen.
I just hate to even have to expose them to virus' in captivity that they normally wouldn't be exposed to in the wild, it doesn't seem fair to the animals. It most likely would not be around near as much in the wild, as they are not bred like they are in captivity.


Tracie

 

[Beardiepal]

I work with kids with cancer and don't know much about adeno in lizards. But I do know that we as humans all carry adenovirus and because we have healthy immune sytems it very rarely makes us sick. On the other hand, when our immune system is compromised by cancer and then by chemotherapy, then the immune system in humans cannot fight all the things that are dormant in our bodies. Thats why our kids get Epstein Barr Virus, Cytomegalovirus, adenovirus, zoster, fungal infections, etc. I do agree that more research should be done with lots of lizard ailments from lymphoma to leukemia, to kidney and liver failure, to adenovirus to respiratory infections. We can be carriers of adenovirus just as our beardies can be. They may be carriers of other things and even be colonized as well but have built up some sort of immunity to other things. This is a controversial subject, I do agree, and wonder if there are any answers at this time. If tests are not sensitive enough at this time to detect for certainty, it may just be a waste of money to test, nless you indeed have an ill dragon. Even then, I know there is only a handful of antiviral medications on the market and they can be very kidney & liver toxic to humans. I feel that if your dragons are healthy, the offspring are healthy, then if a test does say they are positive does it mean they should be put down, or does it mean they are just carriers or colonized? Where is the point where it becomes a danger? After they are sick is too late. But as a carrier, they can still be the healthiest dragon around. Take care Tracie, Beth

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello,

Well, I still feel that if someone is going to breed, that the ethical thing to is to test. The PCR & the Fecal are acceptable measures to test for the presence of adeno. Yes, they shed, we all know that, but that is what we have & it should be used.
Vets say it is the ethical thing to do is to test to give full disclosure to clients. I agree. I don't think it is professional to have a wait & see attitude when there are alot of problems with adeno virus today.
That is just the thing, without continuous testing, we can't answer any of that as to "where is the danger zone" or "what levels are acceptable", etc, etc.
There was a time here in the US where adeno was not a problem, but alot of the earlier breeders ignored & it has gotten much much worse despite the warnings from the leading vets on this subject. If the colonies had of been closed, & breeding ceased for awhile, it could have been contained.
It is sad, really that it could have been stopped but wasn't.


Thanks.
Tracie

 

[Valley Dragons]

It seems that there were die-offs and problems for a while in some people's colonies, and now things seem to be leveling off. I have not heard of anyone this season with mass die-offs. Do you know of anyone who bred this year and had high hatchling mortality? I still think the worst is probably over.

Jamie

 

[pscaulkins]

I think we are not seeing the hatchling die offs because the some people have tested and NOT bred them. I know of a few people with positive results that chose not to bred this year.

I think all breeders should at least make an effort to test once. It really shows responsibility and ethics if they do. This is my personal opinion and one that I tell anyone that asks about good breeders.

If I were in the market for another dragon, I would not even consider a breeder that does not test. Having experience with adeno positive dragons, I know first hand that stress can cause major issues due to the lack of immunity. But adeno causes more than just lack of immunity. How does anyone know that letting this virus continue won't cause major issues with future dragons. What if they don't get immunity from this virus, than what? What if it mutates and causes major deaths and all the dragons in the US could be at risk, than what?

I have 2 big, healthy looking POSITIVE dragons. It took until they were two years old and endless amount of money to get them to this point. I have no clue what their future will bring though.

Sandy

 

[Valley Dragons]

I think we are not seeing the hatchling die offs because the some people have tested and NOT bred them. I know of a few people with positive results that chose not to bred this year.

But what about all the people that have kept right on breeding? What about the "big breeders" that supposedly have adeno in their colonies? Shouldn't their animals all be dead/dying by now if adeno is a killer? I have breeding stock from these big breeders. Why am I not seeing die-offs? Why are my dragons not sick?

I think all breeders should at least make an effort to test once. It really shows responsibility and ethics if they do. This is my personal opinion and one that I tell anyone that asks about good breeders.

If I were in the market for another dragon, I would not even consider a breeder that does not test. Sandy

Out of curiosity, how much testing do YOU consider the right amount to determine if a dragon is positive or negative? One test does not determine anything at this point. So are you as a consumer willing to pay a considerable amount of money - which it would take to compensate the breeder for several rounds of testing, not to mention the extra cost of food, housing and electricity while this dragon is growing up and going through round after round of tests? Even if a breeder only tests his or her breeding dragons (which still leaves doubt as to the status of the babies...what if mom and dad's immune system has oppressed the virus to the point that it is not shedding at the time of testing), you are looking at a greater price for offspring to compensate for all of the breeding dragons being tested. I am afraid that the average person, when considering buying a dragon, does not really care. They just want a healthy pet. Let's say "Joe Blow" has a reputation for selling dragons that are supposedly adeno-free. He asks a whopping $500 for his "thoroughly tested" babies. And let's say that "Jane Blow" has a reputation for selling healthy dragons who have undergone no testing. She asks $80 for one of her babies...who also happen to come with a health guarantee. Most people would make the choice to buy from Jane. Most people don't have the desire to spend tons of money on an animal that might just die anyway for a variety of reasons completely unrelated to adenovirus. It may sound harsh...but it's the cold, hard truth.

Not picking on you, Sandy...but your post was good for making my point.

Jamie

 

[Beardiepal]

I have to compare this to our human lives. You have a doctor-you do not want to accept what he has told you- you get a second opinion. You have faith in your doctor...perhaps you hear bad news....you seek out a second opinion-that is your right. Ok here goes....you have a breeder...he illicits good faith to you...nothing is wrong...you buy a dragon from him....it is your choice, your right, and your reponsibility to research that breeder as it is to be responsible for your own healthcare.
You obtain references from your breeder as you would your own doctor...hopefully before choosing either...there is always a bad apple in every bunch...there are bad bad doctors out there...as well as everyone would believe: bad bad breeders out there. Whose reponsibilty is it???We pick and choose our human OB docs and our kid's pediatricians...we pick our human breeders , lol...they are our spouses..., the breeders pick our dragons moms and pops....how is it any different than making a gut educated researched decision of who we may buy our next juvenile from. Come on guys...you may adopt a child....then later in life they have leukemia and die on you. Whose fault is it???? I think I am over this discussion...are you expecting more for your beardies than what is reality out there for our human species? Please get a grip and know that the breeders you know as well as the human doctors you choose are your choice...if its not the best choice...so be it....but if you make the hard search...then you know and will be satisfied....Take care all beth

 

[Beardiepal]

And the vets you choose to take care of your beardie's health. I just read this this a.m. and sorry if it came throgh as a little harsh. It was not my intention. Take care all, Beth

 

[pscaulkins]

But what about all the people that have kept right on breeding? What about the "big breeders" that supposedly have adeno in their colonies? Shouldn't their animals all be dead/dying by now if adeno is a killer? I have breeding stock from these big breeders. Why am I not seeing die-offs? Why are my dragons not sick?



Out of curiosity, how much testing do YOU consider the right amount to determine if a dragon is positive or negative? One test does not determine anything at this point. So are you as a consumer willing to pay a considerable amount of money - which it would take to compensate the breeder for several rounds of testing, not to mention the extra cost of food, housing and electricity while this dragon is growing up and going through round after round of tests? Even if a breeder only tests his or her breeding dragons (which still leaves doubt as to the status of the babies...what if mom and dad's immune system has oppressed the virus to the point that it is not shedding at the time of testing), you are looking at a greater price for offspring to compensate for all of the breeding dragons being tested. I am afraid that the average person, when considering buying a dragon, does not really care. They just want a healthy pet. Let's say "Joe Blow" has a reputation for selling dragons that are supposedly adeno-free. He asks a whopping $500 for his "thoroughly tested" babies. And let's say that "Jane Blow" has a reputation for selling healthy dragons who have undergone no testing. She asks $80 for one of her babies...who also happen to come with a health guarantee. Most people would make the choice to buy from Jane. Most people don't have the desire to spend tons of money on an animal that might just die anyway for a variety of reasons completely unrelated to adenovirus. It may sound harsh...but it's the cold, hard truth.

Not picking on you, Sandy...but your post was good for making my point.

Jamie

We don't know if the big breeders are having die offs. Do you really think they will advertise this? No one has a clue who is having die offs because no one wants other people to know.

To be honest, one fecal test is enough for me. I realize that it could be a false negative but not always. It's better than nothing.... It shows responsibility to me anyway.

Keep in mind, I would have rather had the decision to have adeno dragons than not. BTW, one of my breeders tested and quit selling after getting a positive from the mother. The other continues to breed and sell but I know for a fact her hatchlings are weak because I know someone that purchased one and it died quickly and was ill.

Jamie, after the experiences I have had, I would pay $500 for a guaranteed adeno free, totally healthy dragon that the breeder tested. But than again, I don't plan on ever getting any more.

Mine are not sick either but it doesn't mean it they won't get something down the road.

Jamie, have you tested yours?

I am not picking on you Jamie either. You did make a good point though.

 

[Valley Dragons]

No, I have not tested. It is kind of hard for me to justify spending thousands of dollars testing animals for a disease when they are not sick, and the babies that they produce are not sick. In my mind, that kind of defies logic and common sense.

Jamie