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Adenovirus questions

Carriers are not...

Carriers are not disease producing in any species...humans are carriers of all kinds of things...and we would all test negative or positive until the colony counts got large enough to produce illness...do we know what the count has to be to produce a sure fire positive test in our reptiles ???? I am not denying that there needs to be more research, I am not denying that it could be dangerous...but what is the count of an organism that causes a respiratory infection in beardies that kill them, or how much fatty liver do you have to have before you are worried about fatty liver disease, or how much protein causes kidney failure, or how much D3 causes the neurotoxicity that many have identified in our beardies? It seems there are many questions, and some of these have struck home more than adenovirus. Cancer such as leukemia and lymphoma...I will not test my beardies until I have a reason to do so...I cannot change the spiralling death of the adults or their offspring if they have adenovirus, can I ?? Any responsible breeder who has unanswered reasons for deaths know to look for adenovirus. B
 
Beardiepal said:
Carriers are not disease producing in any species
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what exactly this is supposed to mean??? How are carriers "not disease producing"?

Perhaps they do not magically "produce" the illness, but asymptomatic or not, carriers of many things surely can spread that illness to others. Why else would we have human "carriers" of TB secluded away? Or boas that are asymptomatic spreading IBD to other animals?

Beardiepal said:
I cannot change the spiralling death of the adults or their offspring if they have adenovirus, can I ??
Click to expand...

It is mindset like this that prompted me to stop breeding Beardies altogether.
 
Beardiepal said:
Any responsible breeder who has unanswered reasons for deaths know to look for adenovirus. B
Click to expand...

By that time they would have sold tons of sick babies to unsuspecting people. People that have a right to know what the animal is carrying. What kind of person would do that if they know about adeno? People know it is out there so why not send one sample to see.

Had I known about adeno before I got my dragons, I would not even look at a breeders stock unless I seen a test. I am in no means putting any breeders that don't test down. I can understand the money issues. But I have experience with adenovirus. Yes, they can be healthy looking dragons but sometimes at a huge vet cost.
 
Hello

Hello,

Yes, I agree. Nothing will ever get accomplished with this type of mindset. How will anyone know any acceptable levels without doing any testing?
One problem I have with trying for a vaccine is this. For arguments' sake, let's say that all dragons have adeno in their system naturally, but if you don't test how can you know if they do or don't? What good would come from injecting a vaccine carrying the Adeno in it, into a perfectly healthy dragon? Reptiles do not process meds very well, & things can become toxic much more quickly than they would in mammals. Injecting a vaccine such as that could be devastating & possibly fatal to healthy animals with low or nonexistent levels of adeno virus. The blood brain barrier is much more fragile in reptiles than mammals, leaving them more vulnerable to drugs passing across the membranes more easily & staying in the system much longer.
A vaccine is not necessarily a cure all. Look at humans, we get the "vaccine" for the flu, but we still get it alot of times, even if we did get the vaccine. The same goes for alot of other things, too.
You can't just inject a vaccine into an animal that may not have it, just to prevent it. Stopping breeding known positives is the only way to eradicate it all, but without testing no one will know who is positive & who is negative.
I believe adeno is something that us humans have done to the dragons, not something naturally found in nature.
We are responsible for the downfall of any animal species.
Sandy of all people understands what it is like to deal with Adeno. She has spent thousands of dollars on her 2 dragons but to look at them today you would never know. However, the average person is simply not willing to go to such lengths to keep their dragons alive. Most don't understand that type of committment & passion.
Thank you Sandy, for your comments.


Tracie
 
Drache613 said:
Stopping breeding known positives is the only way to eradicate it all
Click to expand...
How do you know this? It's a theory...but there is no way that you can be sure that no longer breeding AD+ dragons will result in the elimination of AD.

I believe adeno is something that us humans have done to the dragons, not something naturally found in nature.
We are responsible for the downfall of any animal species.
Click to expand...

We as humans, did not do this to dragons. Viruses occur naturally in the environment. If we had released a genetically engineered lethal virus onto our dragons, then I could agree that it was our fault. But this is just a case of nature going through normal, natural processes. This has happened in many species, over many years. It weeds out the weak, and strengthens the strong. If you stop breeding all the strong healthy, AD+ drgagons that have aquired the ability to live healthy lives with this virus, then you are playing with nature. You will ultimately weaken the species. Sure...if you have a sickly dragons with AD, then do what you wish I suppose. Those dragons posses weak and inferior genetics, and they should not be bred and allowed to pass down their lack of resistance. But if you have strong, healthy AD+ dragons, then by all means, breed them! We need dragons like that![/QUOTE]
 
Criticism of my mindset

I am not an expert on adenovirus in beardies. I have never been and will never say that I am. As far as I can tell there are no experts.This is a discussion and my mindset is not on trial here. I am trying to understand and be a part of this discussion. If my opinions are not worth respecting, then just come out and say so. I suppose you did this in a way and its not very supportive to those who you want to convince to test. If I am in your opinion with the mindset of an ass, so be it. I will not apologize for contributing to a discussion with the intention of attempting to learn & understand more. Thanks for the respect everyone. I truly think that your attitudes of criticism will turn more people away, or make them go elsewhere for answers. Respectfully, B
 
If you are here to learn, then you need to think before making statements such as "Carriers are not disease producing in any species"...passing on misinformation such as that is only detrimental to those who are trying so diligently to figure this thing out.

That, coupled with the comment about not being able to "change the spiralling death" of those already infected....perhaps we cannot change those, but by working together, we can possbily prevent more and yet more dragons from suffering their fate. By throwing up our hands and saying that we will go on like nothing is wrong since we really can't do anything about it anyway....that's what irks me.

I have no desire to be included with folks who think that way, nor could I continue to breed babies who may end up suffering that fate someday. I have chosen to simply enjoy my Beardies for the wonderful little beings they are. As much as I enjoyed having the babies I don't have to breed them to get that joy. :shrug01:
 
Cat_72 said:
If you are here to learn, then you need to think before making statements such as "Carriers are not disease producing in any species"...passing on misinformation such as that is only detrimental to those who are trying so diligently to figure this thing out.

That, coupled with the comment about not being able to "change the spiralling death" of those already infected....perhaps we cannot change those, but by working together, we can possbily prevent more and yet more dragons from suffering their fate. By throwing up our hands and saying that we will go on like nothing is wrong since we really can't do anything about it anyway....that's what irks me.

I have no desire to be included with folks who think that way, nor could I continue to breed babies who may end up suffering that fate someday. I have chosen to simply enjoy my Beardies for the wonderful little beings they are. As much as I enjoyed having the babies I don't have to breed them to get that joy. :shrug01:
Click to expand...

I think Beth was trying to make the point that we (and animals) "carry" many viruses, bacteria, etc. These "germs" are not disease-producing in most cases, as we have developed an immunity to them over time. It is highly probable that the same is happening with adenovirus in dragons, based on the fact that many people have extremely healthy dragons that also happen to be AD+. If prositutes in African can begin showing resistance to HIV, then who is to say that dragons cannot develop resistance to adenovirus?

Jamie
 
I don't appreciate your mindset either

No apologies, no nothing from your side. I want to say this...if you want people to test their beardies for adenovirus you must lose the greater than thou attitude. I agree with Valley and very much appreciate her discussion. You want to make beardies immune to adenovirus...it is utterly impossible. Perhaps you need to find the reason for this exacerbation of adenovirus and not blame it on irresponsible breeders or those of us will be reponsible if we have die off...did you ever ever expect adeno ubtil then? Its not that..there are so many other things that cause our dragon's death...more that are veteranarian accepted...I commend your efforts...but I have to say that if you take the God given ability to fight disease from them...then you will always have susceptible dragons..if you want my dragon as a research subject then say so...you have never once said what the risks & benefits would be...if my dragon is a carrier and tests positive and is never sick...does this information go out to your personal friends not to buy a dragon from someone who is healthy and only a carrier...shit you guys...you want to disrupt the dragon world without one iota of proof. Carriers do not mean disease. B
 
And I hesitantly say one more thing

Instead of euthanizing your dragons that you thought would die from adenovirus, you actually killed progress !!! I have to say that your humanity probably delayed progress. And you want to blame others. B
 
Hello

Hello,

Well, if you read the report from Jacobson, he specifically states not to breed AD positive dragons, period. So, why do you want to do that to them? We have weakened the genetics of these dragons simply by inbreeding them for whatever particular morph that we please, & THAT is playing with nature & is not fair. It is no wonder they are susceptible to disease & virus.
It is not ethical to knowingly pass on disease. If we were to observe them in the wild they most likely would have very little health problems. Sure, there are always babies born that don't make it due to some type of genetic problem, but definitely not the percentage that we are causing.



Tracie
 
Tracie- I truly regret that this has gotten this far... I truly am sorry ! I applaud your efforts,,,I just don't agree wholeheartedly. I never citicized until you agreed with my mindset being questioned? There are reasons for 2 opinions Tracie. I really belive this. I learn from you-the teacher-the advocate and here we have allowed this discussion to become very uncomfortable. I failed because I got angry and so did you...B
 
Hello

Hello,

Beth, there have been so many discussions that almost mirror this same exact thread. So it is like a broken record, that you play over & over. I as well as others who are advocates for Adeno feel as I do, but do not come on much because of all of the frustrations.
I get frustrated & angry because of the breeders from the past that are still breeding now that have known positives in their colonies but refuse to do anything about it. That is why I get angry because it is not simply my opinion it is the recommendation from Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz not to breed positives as it is unethical.
So really the only ones losing right now, are the dragons. Sorry I feel that way but I just do. I am one of the only few that actually have the guts to against the grain & against all of the large breeders that by now hate me. I just honestly don't care anymore.
Cheri S spent years being beaten up & she can't take it anymore & you all ran her off. I am here to continue whatever she did not & could not finish due to her health problems & frustrations.
I am sorry that most of the Adeno threads turn this way, that is just how it ends up going. If you have entered enough of them as I & a few others have, it always turns out practically the same way as this one did, unfortunately. It is a very sore subject with alot of people as there are a handful & probably more that have not had the courage to come forward with their Adeno problems in their colonies. There are so many breeders that had so many die offs due to it. Others have had problems, but did not do testing, but just passed it off to other strange problems. I am sorry but it is the mindset of most of the breeders to simply ignore it & continue on as they are doing & just not even make an effort at all to test. That wont fix the problem, or even help it.
I apologize for being direct, but I cannot begin a society advocating against breeding positives, & then represent myself in any other way & support breeders that wont test. I simply will not & cannot do it.

Tracie
 
I cannot be responsible for those breeders who are selling adeno positive babies. Because the mom or dad was adeno positive, were the babies??? You have opinions from Jacobsen and Wentz...my vet doesn't believe my beardies are at risk...don't convince me and the ones who love beardies and will swear to be ethical...it sounds as if you need to convince the veterinary world...Tracie,,,climb to the top !!!! Convince vets that it is indeed a beardie killer and you will have your pepsquad, Too many people look at their vets and expect them to do the right thing...perhaps you are bypassing your most important link...B
 
You have to find the reptile specialists accross the US. Is there a veterinary website that lets you know their specialties? Hell I don't know...there is one for doctors & lawyers.market your opinion, get it out there...so >>>>B
 
You are not notifying who you should...

Tracie- you need some help???Possibly we could find reptile specialists from a registry or you can ask for members vets who they consider to be reptile specialists...devise/create your letter and an excel spreadsheet so you can keep track 0f those you have contacted...and then you will know who you need to contact in 1-2 months. I am quite serious about this endeavor....you want to be credible...get the vets behind you...then we get a grant or whatever surfaces from your contact with reptile vets...they may just jump on your bandwagon... B
 
Hello

Hello Beth,

I am already trying to do so. Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz are both reptile specialists, or so they say. Most "reptile" specialists throw their names around because they are supposed to be the leading authority on it. So since I am virtually a no one when it comes to all of this, it is just going to take some time.
I have even thought about going to the CDC to see what type of action could be taken, etc.
I did the first step & that was to get the backing of the U. of Illinois as well as Lou Ann. It's not like that took me a day. I have had that in the works for well over a year.
Dr. Jacobson wont give too many people time of day, either so that is not real encouraging either. Alot of vets wont even return your phone calls, so it is painstakingly slow.
You are right though, most vets do not think it is bad. A major reason is because they don't know anything about it or have never seen a dragon with it. Most dragon owners don't even take their dragon to the vet when it is sick. There are alot of new owners that have their dragon die & never even bother to get a necropsy done. So they just died suddenly with no warning & you have no idea. Then we do have some, which I have been compiling now for awhile, owners that have had heartbreaking instances in which they have done lots for their dragons & they still passed. They go through with a necropsy, etc, only to find that they had enlarged livers, & that they were positive for adeno. That is not normal for a 1 or 2 year old to have an enlarged liver.
So there are some vets that are concerned, just not enough data from people in general & they don't see enough cases to be concerned. Vets that see alot of cases know how bad it is firsthand, but if they had never seen it firsthand they would not have the experience.
I am working on some ideas, but it takes time. As far as the grants go, I doubt I could get one, but maybe a vet could. The vet or the school or institution would have to get approved, not me.
There are a few websites that have listings of reptile vets. I also get names from people of the vets that they have used & if they were good, etc.
I was just hoping for a better initial response from some of the older breeders who have gone through the outbreak in the 1990's & most recently. They of all people should understand how real & how threatening it is. I don't know how many more cases we have to see or go through before people realize that it is a problem & can cause genetic problems for future offspring.
While yours at the moment, may not be at risk for Adeno, whether they are positive or negative we don't know, but if you bring another dragon into your colony from another breeder you could run the risk of infecting your colony without knowing it. You never know how they may react to it. All it takes is for them to get their coccidia levels way up for them to begin stressing & if they are positive they will quickly go downhill alot of times. I want your colony to be healthy & want your offspring to be healthy. I would personally just want to know if they were carriers or not, but, again, that is just me.
Thanks for the ideas & support, it does help & it does make a difference, to me, Beth.


Tracie
 
Tracie.
How many Dragons are you personally working with to base all your experience on?
Have they all been tested?
Results?

Jim.
 
Hello

Hello Jim,

I have quite awhile files from clients that have had their dragons tested. I personally have not kept adeno postive dragons, no. At least not yet.
You know, I am just trying to help & get everyone to help the dragons more, that's all. Reptiles, in general, get the shaft. They have no rights, there are very few vets that will treat them, & just overall they need more people fighting for them, generally speaking.


Tracie
 
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