The issue which worries and concerns me the most...and it may be JUST ME, but it seems as if this whole adenovirus "scare" is some what a little over exaggerated and the mass paranoia it's creating may be leading to the needless euthanization and culling of otherwise healthy and thriving dragons.
I have never seen where anyone is telling anyone else to cull or euthanize healthy and thriving dragons, the only ones I am personally aware of ahead of time that were euthanized were individuals that had mass die offs and wasting babies in their colonies and it was confirmed not only by a fecal protocal test, but also necropsy on some that had already died that adeno was present AND the organs had the classic markers of lesions and necrosis.
So far based on what has been posted on some of these threads by first hand accounts and quotes from the various Doctors involved, and please correct me if I'm wrong as I've just recently started following some of these threads and researching for myself....
1. There is no absolute test which will prove positive...apparently some dragons can test false negative and possibly vice versa.
I do not think this is correct, once positive they have the virus it does not go away and a dna test will show it still there, you may have a fecal test that does not showing shedding at that time (and that is still under question) OR you may have a dragon that showed another species adenovirus that was in them, but not and COULD NOT infect them with the adenovirus that does affect bearded dragons. This can be seen in fecal protocal test that come back saying one or a few particles or partial particles found and they are advised to retest in a few months. <--- this is something that gets ignored often it seems and is very IMPORTANT.. you have a cold and cough around your pets, you can have adenovirus from you, show up in their test or from other animals in the home or environment.
2. There are no absolute known symptoms associated with this virus, however some of the tests were performed on dragons that were already compromised one way or another and the tests/doctors don't indicate if the adenovirus caused the symptoms or the symptoms were a direct result of some other factors...what it boils down to is some of the sick dragons were tested, positive results were obtained....but no one can say for certainty that the adenovirus was directly at fault and that no other factors could've contributed, yet it seems every time someone reports a dragon is getting sick...its gotta be the adenovirus
See my answer above and also the necropy summary of finding I typed out. There was no other listed cause or findings in that necropsy report or many others I have here and have collected long before there were testings so available and a necropsy is not a false postive. There are a vaiety if symptoms that can be displayed, often broken down by age, but no written in stone ones that are always present
3. There are currently no known cures or treatments
there are support things that can be done to keep one positive in the best chance for a healthy condition, but your right, no cure and also no evidence that any dragon has developed an immunity to this
4. Some adenovirus dragons are living healthy, productive, and thriving lives
yes, but the still can infect others and young are especially susceptible as they have no immune system as are breeder females or any dragon that is otherwise immune compromised. Postive animals are simply not the same as healthy, productive, and thriving bearded dragons. They can infect other and destroy a colony, not all, maybe not even the majority, but no one knows right now what is the catalyst or the result of any passing of the virus will end in. We have seen several times now and entire colonies affected with many being lost and the only casue that could found was the obvious ones on necropsy that are consistant with adenovirus infections.
5. There are accounts of adenovirus in other captive and wild populations of dragons worldwide.....this is not a USA specific issue
I believe the first cases were in Australia and New Zealand, with other cases reported in IL and some other states, these were considered isolated outbreaks in a breeders colony, zoo or wild. BUT.... today almost all the cases that were confirmed in the past by necropsy, liver bio and now fecal test came from the same breeder or that breeders lines that were sold to others. England did set up testing, but my understanding there were not enough testings or positives found for the vets and labs to continue making it available, there have been some postive on necropsy from Japan, Italy, Belgium, Germany and I think it was the Netherlands, but also in those areas there are far more necropsies that indicate no adneo and other casues of deaths. That is the same for necropsies in the US from a few years ago, rarely was adeno mentioned in them as a factor, casue of death. or even found in the Bearded Dragons.
In my personal opinion...based on those above factors, why anyone would automatically suggest culling or euthanization is beyond me.
that is a personal decision that each breeder or owner needs to make for themselves, based on what they are seeing, I do not pass judgement on them on way or the other, I DO object to the selling of positive animals without the buyer being made aware of it.
Could it be that most if not all dragons may possibly have the adenovirus can, have and will continue to be productive, healthy and thrive with no ill effects?
Some certainly will, there was one followed over 4 years time and although he did have problems off and on, he passed away at age 6 years. But, he remained able to infect other dragons, he also left us a lot of information, as he was the male that produced many of the babies that were used in the only limited over time research that has been done on this virus by a professional. His name was Frantz and his mate was Anna, who passed away after laying several clutches in two years time. Where they came from is not a question, they were the owner's only dragons, they were shipped direct from the breeder and never had contact with any other dragons or did the owner have any contact with others. All those babies were positive and many of them went to research that helped develop the fecal test that is used today at the University of IL, but that was not the first or only University doing this testing.
It doesnt seem to me that anyone has stepped up and claimed that the adenovirus is the "black plague" which should be avoided at all costs because it will lead to the destruction and death of entire collections / populations...well maybe people have made that claim but is there anything to substantiate it?
It *CAN* be very destructive as there has been no other cause constantly linked to some mass deaths in colonies and there are far more than are being seen on these post online. I stopped posting on these and many other will not get involved due to all the conflicts, twisted words. mudslinging and outright lies by some people. Some breeders lies (surprise!!), some do not want it known that they have it and have known they have it for years and fatalities in thier colonies. Some are trying to start over and do not want it know that 1 or a few of a dozen of their dragons tested positive. Yes they also have healthy appearing dragons, but so did some of the breeders that lost almost all of their dragons or a large portion, no one knows the answers to this yet and it has been advised by the professionals not to breed positive dragons. The really interesting thing is that often, breeders with known positive animals, had the option of breeding know negative animals or selling known negative clutches and they choose to ignore that, breed positive ones or ones that had very good reasons to think were positive or sell off babies that are positive, positive babies who had clutchmates die offs and young breeder parents' already dead before the babies hatched....without telling others, many of those breeders with dozens of dragons already in their homes. That was and is wrong, not matter how healthy their dragons looked as they packed and shipped them.
We're not talking about something like IBD in pythons and boas...something that literally effects the outwardly appearance of a infected animal and then ultimately leads to its demise....no ifs ands or buts, if a python or boas gets IBD.....its ultimate fate will be death whether by the hands of the owner or by nature itself....there is no escape.
Please correct me if I am wrong here, my only information on IDB comes from Dr Jacobson in several conversations,and one with Dr Wissman also present, but I thought that they can harbor this disease for years and not have any outward signs, then they can appear and waste away or starve to death. Bearded dragons do not have the years of life that biods do, so that can not be compared really, but I understood that it can be in them for several years and the owner never know until neurological signs or eating signs appear. This is also what has been observerd in some adult dragons that are positive as they grow older. NOTE: due to lack of prior testing, there is not a lot of information on this. IBD I thought young were more susceptible to and would show signs earlier, or the immune surpressed just like bearded dragons. Support care and cleanliness can lengthen the life of snakes just like bearded dragons, but it does not casue the virus. Controlling any secondary infections is vital(bacterial, fungal or protozoal) just like bearded dragons and both still have a lot of needed reserach to be done. I have seen sildes of both virus, and they do look a lot a like to me. Both have questions that the snakes and the dragons, may not be the primary source of the infection as they do affect many differently and they can be getting them transmitted from another animals or insect. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, I have spent much more time with lizard species than with snakes or studying them and their illnesses
Is this how the adenovirus should be perceived? Is there any proof positive that this is the type of problem we're headed towards?
Just as it is thought that IBD may be world wide and eventually in all collections some day, this can also happen to bearded dragons, the difference is we do have an inexpensive test now that we can have the dragons tested for.... maybe not perfect, but better than what snake people have right now for IBD. We also had a chance to help control this a few years ago, when the majority of necropsy and testings went back to only less than a handful of breeders.. I think you or any snake person would like to turn back the clock on IBD if that was known and what breeders lines it was predominant in and test those or avoid breeding them?
what rubbish!