Adenovirus Questions

[Dachiu]

Cheri :
In your last 5 posts on this thread alone - you have offered no referenceable information and no verifyable data.
You state that PCR with blood/swab can be done in multiple places. We all know this. This is not the question.

Again - this is NOT an attack, just a simple question that should have a simple answer ==

What lab/labs are using PCR as a testing method of identifying atadenovirus in bearded dragons utilizing blood and cloacal swabs as a medium?

Thank you.

 

[varnyard]

Cheri Smith AKA CheriS, all I see is you making these claims without any proof at all and you have been doing this for months. Not just here, but everywhere, you, Chasity and Denise.

Chasity, had this so called proof to, she now has a thread on the BOI where it is proven she altered someones test results to make it look like she had clean dragons. She also made the same claim about getting PCR blood swab testing done.

Now Denise is the only other one to claim to have PCR blood swab testing done. No one can find one ounce of a shred of proof that any lab/vet/doctor is doing this test on this virus

What is so hard about backing up your statements up with proof?

 

[Cat_72]

I see the topic list for the 2007 ARAV (Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians) conference includes several items relating to Adeno:

The detection of adenovirus infections in bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps) with real time PCR B. Wagner

Estimating the sensitivity and specificity of two different assays for bearded dragon adenovirus using latent exact modeling-Walden M

Development of a non-invasive diagnostic technique to characterize the adenoviral status of Australian bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps)-S. Zimmerman

Perhaps this is finally getting enough attention.

 

[draggintails]

I would also like to say from what I know personally talking to other vets, researchers, lab techs and lab managers, some of them are being treated incredibly brutal when called by some of those who do not want any dragons to be negative and grilled for information, very intrusive and feeling they are being accused of being shoddy or poor in their work and process or they have done something wrong and are being harassed.


I heard this too, so I asked Dr. Stacey (and everything I say is verifiable with that lab...pick up the phone before you eat me people). We discussed this Cheri and you mentioned a few times to me twice in person (once on Oct on the phone and once in March in person to me and Ken Robertson at the show) and in an email that the markers U of F is using could be incorrect and that you are suspicious of the high positives.....extremely important to me to bring this up with the lab....they are selling me a product which is their test and giving me a result...I won't have any funny business going on and when you tell me this, I absolutely have to research it. Please do not misunderstand me, I am no tattle tale but my husband is a lawyer, I was a legal secretary we don't even think about confirming things--just do it, it is the difference between a paycheck and losing in this house. With this it was the difference between life and death..literally.

Dr. Stacey said he had heard you said this before, your name was used so there was no misunderstanding and that is where the above quote is coming from, I don't want to hurt you Cheri I am very sorry, but he was referring to you in that quote. Now if he is referring to someone else as well I don't know.

The many negatives that are coming back,yeah right....I would like to purchase a few babies from negative PCR parents...I will need permission to verify test results with the lab and I will PCR the baby and he must come back neg. If you have babies that are neg for ATA 1. I will purchase some......this is no trick.

I am left with an itsy bitsy group of animals, as is everyone else that has tested , I am disgusted and I am out of options.

Now, I can't find one negative animal, I purchased a dozen from a dozen breeders and ALL were positive. I am tired of spending money. Please contact me if you have what I am looking for.

 

[Cat_72]

It could be compared to the Parvo virus, many dogs carry that virus without it affecting them.

I'm curious, where did you get this information? According to everything I have ever learned about Parvo, and my vet..this is simply NOT true. Many dogs carry the antibodies to fight parvo, but this comes from being immunized.

Also, It is believed to be a very strong virus, it is recommended to kill it in a enclosure you must use a strong bleach solution. This could also be one reason it is so wide spread.

When I spoke to you on the phone, you insisted that the only thing that would kill adeno was cleaning with ammonia....and since most folks don't clean their enclosures with ammonia, that was part of the reason it was so widespread.

 

[shrap]

When I spoke to you on the phone, you insisted that the only thing that would kill adeno was cleaning with ammonia....and since most folks don't clean their enclosures with ammonia, that was part of the reason it was so widespread.

He told me the only thing that would kill it is a 20 percent bleach solution. Which is it? What gives? Contradictory statements. Break out the torches and pitchforks. Hot tar, feathers. HE'S A WITCH!!!!!

 

[varnyard]

Cat_72, When I spoke to you on the phone, you insisted that the only thing that would kill adeno was cleaning with ammonia....and since most folks don't clean their enclosures with ammonia, that was part of the reason it was so widespread.

Cathy, this is where the problems come in. There are so many people giving information about this virus that is not backed up by facts. I was told ammonia, and told you the exact same thing.

Then I found the facts here:

Vickie Dachiu: After researching through some materials that we have obtained - we came across some interesting information…

The MSDS for Adenovirus do list a disinfectant susceptibility to 1% sodium hypochlorite for 30 minutes. (Section IV) http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/msds-ftss/msds3e.html

Contrary to what we have been told by medical professionals about bleach -
We have a gallon of regular Clorox that lists 6% sodium hypochlorite as an active ingredient. If mixed with water at 20-25% Clorox - this should be sufficient (at 1.2-1.5%) to disinfect a cage and its accessories.

Any thoughts on this?

Cat_72: I'm curious, where did you get this information? According to everything I have ever learned about Parvo, and my vet..this is simply NOT true. Many dogs carry the antibodies to fight parvo, but this comes from being immunized.

Cathy, I said:

I am far from an expert, but I have been reading and learning about this virus. It is true, a dragon can live a healthy life and carry the virus. Some might be affected by it, but it is just way too early to have all of the facts.
IMO, It could be compared to the Parvo virus, many dogs carry that virus without it affecting them. Does it kill every dog? No, If it did dogs would be extinct.

This is why if people claim to have these unknown facts need to post proof of them.

 

[Dachiu]

PLEASE NOTE :
California Avian Laboratory is a diagnostic and consultative support for avian/exotic veterinarians ONLY. It has been requested by them that no one contact them directly - but instead please have your veterinarian contact them with any questions on the testing methods available through their lab.


However, they do not offer atadenovirus testing for bearded dragons.

 

[Cat_72]

Cathy, this is where the problems come in. There are so many people giving information about this virus that is not backed up by facts. I was told ammonia, and told you the exact same thing.

Then I found the facts here:






Cathy, I said:



This is why if people claim to have these unknown facts need to post proof of them.

Bobby...my whole point was that you are pointing out so many little inconsistancies that you view as proof positive that someone is lying.....yet they are not the only ones showing that inconsistancy. Honest mistakes are made.....but saying completely untrue things like, "many dogs carry parvo and are unaffected by it" to use as a comparison can be very misleading, purposely or not.

 

[varnyard]

Cathy, you are correct, however if someone has the proof that this testing has been done and could help this hobby by posting that proof, then why is it such a secret?

This is the only problem I really have with this picture. To make the claim to be the only one of two that had clean tests on this virus, IMO needs to be backed up with facts.

One of them was already caught not having proof of this test, or virus free dragons.

If I am so wrong, then someone can feel free to prove that by posting the proof. I will admit I was wrong, I will post it everywhere I have been with this, but it requires proof.

 

[Dachiu]

A few comments from a BOI thread :

One positive dragon has lead to some losing their colonies.
Cross contamination proven

Who has lost a colony to this virus?
I've read many statements from people saying they have outwardly healthy, normal dragons that have tested positive.
I know that Tere has a pair of siblings that are positive, apparently healthy, but significantly smaller than the rest of their siblings.
Again, not to stir controversy, but other than the unfortunate woman who had some of her animals put down on bad advice, who can actually say "my animal died from Adeno"?

I would truely like to know these answers also...

In addition, failure to thrive/runts can be caused by numerous factors. Just because an animal tests positive for adeno does not mean that adeno is the cause.
Please check out this Australian breeders observations :
http://www.aussiepythons.com/showthread.php?t=44103 POST #7

Im sorry, but runts do occasionally occur in latter clutches and also with older breeding females. (not only in dragons, but other species as well) And unless a person has produced many clutches over a long period of time - I do not understand how anyone could feel they may have enough experience under their belt to make a statement that failure to thrive/runts are caused by adenovirus.

 

[Tere Salazar]

PLEASE NOTE :
California Avian Laboratory is a diagnostic and consultative support for avian/exotic veterinarians ONLY. It has been requested by them that no one contact them directly - but instead please have your veterinarian contact them with any questions on the testing methods available through their lab.


However, they do not offer atadenovirus testing for bearded dragons.

Funny, Vickie, that's not what they told me yesterday morning when I called them.

After finally getting fed up with the attacks on Denise, I asked her for the name of the lab, called them, and was informed that YES they do PCR testing for bearded dragons, only through a vet. The man I spoke with was not very happy with me calling, and made that very clear to me.

Perhaps the person you spoke with was tired of the lab being harassed for Denise's test results and NOT information about the testing they offer...despite what is being told to everyone on here?

 

[Dachiu]

Tere :
I know nothing of the harassment you are talking about - so if you are implying that was me, you are most certainly out of line.
I just made my only phone call to them and posted what he said. To my question "Do you offer PCR testing for bearded dragon atadenovirus with blood being the submitted sample?" I receive a curt 'no'. Per the gentlemans request, I contacted my veterinarian and he will contact them today for the details on what they do offer.


What part is not being comprehended here? I do not want Denise's results - I want to know what lab she used.

 

[varnyard]

Tere, it is real easy to prove, post the proof.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Tere :
I know nothing of the harassment you are talking about - so if you are implying that was me, you are most certainly out of line.
I just made my only phone call to them and posted what he said. To my question "Do you offer PCR testing for bearded dragon atadenovirus with blood being the submitted sample?" I receive a curt 'no'. Per the gentlemans request, I contacted my veterinarian and he will contact them today for the details on what they do offer.


What part is not being comprehended here? I do not want Denise's results - I want to know what lab she used.

No, Vickie, I was not implying that it was you doing the harassing. I said that they claim they are being harassed, and it typically takes more than one phone for someone to feel harassed, at least in my opinion.

I am glad to know I'm not the only person that received a curt response, though.

 

[Cat_72]

Tere :
I know nothing of the harassment you are talking about - so if you are implying that was me, you are most certainly out of line.
I just made my only phone call to them and posted what he said. To my question "Do you offer PCR testing for bearded dragon atadenovirus with blood being the submitted sample?" I receive a curt 'no'. Per the gentlemans request, I contacted my veterinarian and he will contact them today for the details on what they do offer.


What part is not being comprehended here? I do not want Denise's results - I want to know what lab she used.

I already spoke with my vet, and he will be letting me know tomorrow what they are offering as well.

Tere, it is real easy to prove, post the proof.

Tere cannot post anything she does not have.

 

[Dachiu]

Cathy, that's great. Consistent answers from multiple sources is the best way, I think.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

A few comments from a BOI thread :



I would truely like to know these answers also...

In addition, failure to thrive/runts can be caused by numerous factors. Just because an animal tests positive for adeno does not mean that adeno is the cause.
Please check out this Australian breeders observations :
http://www.aussiepythons.com/showthread.php?t=44103 POST #7

Im sorry, but runts do occasionally occur in latter clutches and also with older breeding females. (not only in dragons, but other species as well) And unless a person has produced many clutches over a long period of time - I do not understand how anyone could feel they may have enough experience under their belt to make a statement that failure to thrive/runts are caused by adenovirus.

I have spoken purely from my experience. I do whole heartedly believe that the portion of failure to thrives was as a result of adenovirus issues. I bred Herbie and Tiger Lily my first season. They were all large and healthy. Even the smaller ones were larger than others I saw for sale that were the same age. Out of a clutch I had maybe one or two like that. Tiger Lily laid 3 clutches in 2005.

Now, let's go to 2006. I again bred Herbie and Tiger Lily. The first clutch started out fine. I also bred Clyde (positive for adeno) with Maggie. By her second clutch I started to lose babies at about 2 1/2 weeks. It then started to happen to my orange babies (which under the same conditions did fantastic the season before) at 6 weeks. After all of the deaths, it was split pretty evenly between babies that grew and appeared normal and babies that were EXTREMELY underweight and just tiny. All of my bins tested positive for adenovirus via fecal EM. I also had two necropsies performed that listed the cause of death as adenovirus in bearded dragons.

I may not have "years of experience" under my belt. But I learned absolutely everything I could before breeding and carefully chose my breeding stock. I provided good husbandry and these babies were well cared for. Tiger Lily was a little over 2 1/2 years for last years clutches and Maggie was almost 2.

I do believe a little common sense goes a long way. I had three extremes in one clutch, deaths, extreme non thrivers (I would not even consider these runts) and normal appearing dragons. They were all kept under the same husbandry. One common factor in all 3 groups is adenovirus positive results. I absolutely believe it was a factor for all three groups, including the non thirvers. I was fortunate to have very healthy large parents and their offspring from the first season is a testament to that. This is why I KNEW something was wrong when the first baby died. I did not have any deaths in season one, so this put up a red flag for me.

Because of the sheer number of dragons you breed, it makes sense you would see more runts. That does not mean that others breeding small numbers will have the same experience. I am not going to sit back and let you belittle me because I have not been breeding and have "years of experience under my belt." I know what I know and witnessed first hand what this did to each clutch. I believe the virus contributed to the issues with the babies and for you to make that comment seems pretty arrogant to me. I am strictly speaking from my experience. You were not there, you did not see the babies wasting away overnight. You were not in my shoes and can't possibly make a judgement that I do not have enough experience to share what I observed first hand.

 

[draggintails]

I have never called this lab, but I did call Studio City Animal Hospital one time and one time only ...looking for a lab, NEVER asking for anyone's test results...there are actually people interested in doing this test...a breeder in Yorba Linda wants a vet that will pull blood and do this test......that hospital called me several times with no luck.

The people wanting to test this way...your dragon has to have a systematic infection for the detection of the virus with this blood test....this test is unreliable to detect adenovirus in a dragon without viremia circulating through the blood........... you have heard the person who develops the test and Dr. Stacey both say this, it is so much easier to just send a fecal to Florida.

My email box has half a dozen emails asking me where to get a blood test because they heard I asked around...I didn't ask around. Please read the above and I asked only Dr. Stacey when we were on the phone..he doesn't know either..what part of he said he doesn't know is not being understood..........I don't know, I used Florida and IL for my testing methods like I have described, I can give you information on testing with those places...but otherwise leave me alone, please read what I wrote and just stop pestering me about it, I am deleting the emails and not answering them.

 

[Dachiu]

Wendy,
You are entirely too touchy on this subject and seem to think every comment is directed negatively towards you. It's not.

I was talking about failure to thrive/runts occurring sporadically in later clutches and how more that 1 breeder that has multi-clutching females has noticed this happen - not only here but in Australia too. Now, considering they have access to (supposedly) 'fresh/uninfected' stock in Au. and it happens there also - attributing adeno as the cause, in my opinion, is sheer ignorance.

This is now bantered around and believed to be a symptom of adenovirus - based upon what??