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Adenovirus Questions

Wendy,
Thank you for answering in such detail...

But my post was directed towards Whiskersmom - suggesting she ask you about the health and asking her to define what she would consider 100% correct husbandry.
I should have been a bit more clear in my post... Im sorry.

Vickie
 
Hey Vickie-

I see what you are saying. But I guess it doesn't hurt for others to see how Clyde was housed. Thanks for clarifying, I appreciate it.

Wendy
 
What I think as great husbandry is what Wendy just recounted regarding Clyde's life. Did he always seem healthy to you, Wendy?
What I'm trying to find out is if a person who knows just the basics of bearded dragon husbandry buys an Adeno infected dragon, will that dragon thrive as well as a non infected dragon?
I've read many newcomers accounts of how they care for their dragons and some of these accounts are concerning dragons that are anywhere from five to nine years old. Alot of these people tell of husbandry that leaves alot to be desired but still, these dragons seem healthy. If these same people acquire an infected dragon, will that baby become ill easier and much quicker then a non infected one?
I've read that Adeno positive carriers can lead a long and healthy life and that seems to be what Sunshine keeps referring back to; his dragons are healthy, so I wanted to know if when a dragon is sold to someone who doesn't have the benefit of the internet and isn't as knowledgeable, do breeders still feel it's ok to sell an Adeno infected baby without full disclosure?
 
do breeders still feel it's ok to sell an Adeno infected baby without full disclosure? Whiskersmom, I think that is something that is misunderstood on the thread on BOI. You started it about selling infected dragons and disclosure, with asking some questions about the parents of your dragon, as it appears you were getting the routine smoke blowing run around from Sunshine Dragon, or at least from the owner Bruce.

Others turn it into a debating issue of what is known and what is not know about adeno and that is where so many people read it as them supporting him selling infected dragons, I am not so sure any supported that or what you asked in the thread, That happens often on the BOI, we call it hijacking a thread or as you saw so many other non relevant things get brought into it,

I know I got massive amounts of pm's and email over people thinking some breeders were stating they agreed with this so people assumed they also had infected dragons also, I do not think that was the case. I have reread that whole mess, but each time when someone ask another breeder outright, they did not agree with selling them without informing the public. Go back and read each one carefully, let me know if I missed it

Sorry, I can not answer your other questions, I do not think it is poor husbandry that dictates if a positive animal is going to get sick and die OR causes adenovirus. Poor husbandry can cause any animals to get sick and die depending on what is missing in their care, whether they have adeno or not. I think that its the virus that causes so many other issues in the dragons, like hard to treat coccidia and other opportunistic bacteria and virus to show up and get a hold of the animal, not the other way around. I have seen to many people with remarkably good husbandry lose their adeno positive adults and babies, blaming it on husbandry like what was done to Wendy, is just a low life taking punches... again to blow more smoke. Like you said, people with horrible husbandy have dragons that live to ripe old ages somethings........ normal non inbreed bearded dragons are very hearty reptiles and often HARD to kill off.
 
I know I got massive amounts of pm's and email over people thinking some breeders were stating they agreed with this so people assumed they also had infected dragons also said:
CheriS, it is unfortunate that such a massive amount of people contacted you to get the lowdown on breeders that had questions or differing opinions about this virus. I hope that you advised them to directly contact the breeder(s) in question rather than relying on third-party opinion. Thank you for reading back over the thread and realizing that not everyone who questions this virus is saying that it is okay to sell adeno-positive babies without full disclosure of the fact. It is unfair to assume that these people are knowingly selling adeno-positive animals and trying to hide the fact.

Jamie
Click to expand...
 
CheriS, it is unfortunate that such a massive amount of people contacted you to get the lowdown on breeders that had questions or differing opinions about this virus. I hope that you advised them to directly contact the breeder(s) in question rather than relying on third-party opinion.
Click to expand...

Some people just don't know if they can trust some breeders' word. Especially after Sunshine was pretty much caught with their pants down and STILL won't admit to what was done or agree to stop distributing adeno suspected or known infected dragons. In fact, didn't he even say that he wouldn't be testing them any longer as he doesn't trust the findings???
I think people are a little afraid that they won't get the truth and are going to someone who has proven herself to be on the side of bearded dragons........
 
whiskersmom said:
Some people just don't know if they can trust some breeders' word. Especially after Sunshine was pretty much caught with their pants down and STILL won't admit to what was done or agree to stop distributing adeno suspected or known infected dragons. In fact, didn't he even say that he wouldn't be testing them any longer as he doesn't trust the findings???
I think people are a little afraid that they won't get the truth and are going to someone who has proven herself to be on the side of bearded dragons........
Click to expand...

Ok - BUT - CheriS could not possibly know what goes on in the facilities of other breeders. And according to her, massive amounts of people were asking her about breeders who were posting on the thread. (At least the breeders that did not blindly follow the mob.) How could she even think that she could speak for all of the breeders, myself included? That is why she needed to direct people to contact each breeder individually that was being questioned.

And by the way, I don't think the opinion of CheriS was required for people to be able to make an informed decision about the practices of Sunshine Dragons. I have not seen any other breeders who posted on that thread acting in any incriminating way that would justify the distrust of the general public in the way that Sunshine did. Sure, there are breeders out there that are less than forthcoming. Just like in every other business. But to lump all breeders together as dishonest is unfair. And to depend on one person with an obvious agenda to prove that adeno is a black-plague killer is unfair too!

Jamie
 
Ok, please enlighten us....what would that agenda be???
And NO ONE said that ALL breeders were dishonest. What is your problem? Are you mad because she is trying to halt the progression of this disease or that she's shedding light on some unscrupulous breeders? I never once read where she says she can speak for all the breeders but sometimes you can put two and two together and figure out which ones are not trust worthy.
I really don't understand your anger, do you honestly think that if a breeder is dirty enough to sell dragons that even might have Adeno without first disclosing it, do you really think they're going to be honest enough to tell you about it once you've asked? I've asked Bruce several times and he won't tell me......and sorry, I'm not naive enough to think he's the only one like that out there.
The way I look at it is, if you're honest and sell healthy dragons, or even dragons that are positive for Adeno but tell the buyer first, then you really don't have anything to worry about. :bandhead0
 
whiskersmom said:
Ok, please enlighten us....what would that agenda be???
And NO ONE said that ALL breeders were dishonest. What is your problem? Are you mad because she is trying to halt the progression of this disease or that she's shedding light on some unscrupulous breeders? I never once read where she says she can speak for all the breeders but sometimes you can put two and two together and figure out which ones are not trust worthy.
I really don't understand your anger, do you honestly think that if a breeder is dirty enough to sell dragons that even might have Adeno without first disclosing it, do you really think they're going to be honest enough to tell you about it once you've asked? I've asked Bruce several times and he won't tell me......and sorry, I'm not naive enough to think he's the only one like that out there.
The way I look at it is, if you're honest and sell healthy dragons, or even dragons that are positive for Adeno but tell the buyer first, then you really don't have anything to worry about. :bandhead0
Click to expand...

I am not mad at anyone. :) I could ask the same thing of you - "What is your problem?". But I won't. You are entitled to your opinion just like anyone else is here. And yes, that includes CheriS. My posts have nothing to do with you, and I don't want you to them as a personal attack. I just want to make sure that if anyone has a question about anyone here that they go directly to that person rather than through a third party, who IMO, is not an expert on the virus and all that it encompasses. And have I not said a millions times that I do not agree with Sunshine selling adenovirus positive dragons without full disclosure of the fact? Let's not turn this into me supporting them, because I don't. And as far as my anger problem...uhhh....what are you talking about? I'm opinionated, not angry! :thumbsup:

Jamie
 
contact this person. She is back in the office the 20th and shes who is running the tests

Lou Ann Miller, MT(ASCP)
Service Supervisor
Center for Microscopic Imaging
College of Veterinary Medicine
Rm 1204 VMBSB
2001 S Lincoln Ave
Urbana, IL 61802

Ph#: 217-244-1567
Website: http://treefrog.cvm.uiuc.edu
Email: [email protected]
 
New test

I spoke with my vet today and she informed me that the lab she uses, California avian, has a new test that they take a blood sample and cloacal swab and can test more accurately for adeno. She quoted the cost to me as around $90. This test makes it a little easier since there is no need to obtain a fresh fecal and stain it within the required time. If anyone would like to contact my vet for more information as she could explain this alot better than I could, or if you would like your veterinarian to look into this test please feel free to give her a call as she is an amazing vet in my opinion. (631)325-1611 Hampton Vet Hospital and her name is Dr. Karen Johnston. From my conversation with her it appears that this test is more accurate and very new in that most labs do not even have it on their list yet.
 
Dr. Jacobsen also offers PCR testing, which is more effective than fecal testing, for about $65 I believe.
 
Yeah, I think that was the name she gave me for the test. It was all kind of a blur as I had literally walked in the door from work. It was probably with them extracting the blood and all in the office the final price for all considered. Plus, nothing out here in the Hamptons is cheap.
 
After talking to a ton of people and researching to the best of my ability, we decided to send out samples of all of our dragons this coming week. What better way to start off the new year, right?

Although I am not 100% confident in the test or the results, it's the only thing we have. Better to utilize the what we have now and go with those results than rely on a hope and a prayer.
 
:iagree:

I completely agree and have been in the process of gathering the samples required for the tests as well. It's not as easy as it sounds to get a fresh sample tho, unless I plan on camping out in the dragon room. Sneaky lil buggers. But I refuse to take any chances and unless I watch the sample come directly from that dragon, I won't take it. I actually refuse to start any breeding attempts until I have the results in hand. It's just not worth the risk to me. I would rather know for certain. Some of the girls aren't too happy with me about that right now, but they will thank me in the end I am sure.
 
After researching through some materials that we have obtained - we came across some interesting information…

The MSDS for Adenovirus do list a disinfectant susceptibility to 1% sodium hypochlorite for 30 minutes. (Section IV) http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/msds-ftss/msds3e.html

Contrary to what we have been told by medical professionals about bleach -
We have a gallon of regular Clorox that lists 6% sodium hypochlorite as an active ingredient. If mixed with water at 20-25% Clorox - this should be sufficient (at 1.2-1.5%) to disinfect a cage and its accessories.

Any thoughts on this?
 
I got this from Lou Ann at the College of Veterinary Medicine in IL. She's going to be doing my tests and I asked her what she thought about bleach being able to kill the virus.


disinfectants such as 1% sodium hypochlorite and 2% glutaraldehyde.


Most effective germicides (15 minute minimum contact time) are phenol
(5%) or sodium hypochlorite (bleach diluted to 200 ppm).

The most effective germicide (with a minimum 15 min. contact time) is a
1% Sodium hypochlorite (bleach)


Spills: Allow aerosols to settle for 15 minutes; wear protective
clothing and gently cover the spill with adsorbent paper towel and
apply freshly prepared 10% sodium hypochlorite starting at the
perimeter and working towards the center; allow at least 30 minutes
contact time before clean up.


# The most effective germicides (with a minimum 15 min. contact time)
are:

* Phenol (5%)
* Sodium hypochlorite (household bleach diluted to 200 ppm or 10%).
 
Has everyone that said they where going to test there dragons done so

and then just forgot to post the results

I was just wondering b/c they should be breeding soon if not already
 
I had my two tested and gratefully the results were negative. My female isn't ready to breed yet, so I've got a little bit of time but I will have them both tested again before I breed them.
Good luck to everyone else.
 
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