Info Al Brown/ Liar

[crotalusadamanteus]

And maybe an apology for calling him a liar too.

 

[Focal]

As a lesson learned, I would at least sign the paperwork. If someone took that document, scanned it, cropped out the bottom photo, and added any norm and started selling them, word would get out that Al Browns paperwork is questionable and no one would want to touch them. This could result in quite a few emails and calls from everyone trying to verify paperwork over the years.

Yes, anyone can forge anything, but honestly, that document would be the easiest. Not trying to insult, but if there is a standard, it should at least include a signature ... at least I would recommend it.

 

[shane159]

Can someone post a good example of the paperwork that should be provided? Not stirring the pot, but I am curious. I have never received any paperwork on any animal I have purchased other than an Albino Columbian female from Boawoman two years ago.

 

[ShadowAceD]

As a lesson learned, I would at least sign the paperwork. If someone took that document, scanned it, cropped out the bottom photo, and added any norm and started selling them, word would get out that Al Browns paperwork is questionable and no one would want to touch them. This could result in quite a few emails and calls from everyone trying to verify paperwork over the years.

Yes, anyone can forge anything, but honestly, that document would be the easiest. Not trying to insult, but if there is a standard, it should at least include a signature ... at least I would recommend it.

Not to nit pick here, but if you are going to point out what people can do to ID Papers in Photoshop, understand it would be a relatively simple process to remove a signature or place a forged one on them.

The best thing to do would actually be to watermark the picture with a custom watermark, but even then ... Photoshop and other programs make it incredibly easy to make things that you want for whatever reason you want them in that regard.

His paperwork is more than some of the paper work I have gotten over the years. Rich has some ridiculously unreasonable expectation here for some lineage that borderlines AKC registration. That is just not something anyone makes a habit of in the industry.

At the end of the day, Chris is right. Paper work is worth the reputation of the breeder and little else.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Can someone post a good example of the paperwork that should be provided? Not stirring the pot, but I am curious. I have never received any paperwork on any animal I have purchased other than an Albino Columbian female from Boawoman two years ago.

It's really up to the seller. I provide a copy of any and all pictures requested, within my power of course, and lineage as far back as I can go. All feed, shed, defecation, dr visits, etc as well, for the entire time they were in my care.

Not everyone will, or can, go to those extents though.

 

[David Reid]

Wow, I would say Rich, don't sweat the small stuff. You are going to give yourself a heart attack. I think you are stuck on a point where Al said he would do something and may or may not have, but it seems like a trivial point. I think you have pretty much shown yourself to be more trouble than you are worth, I hope you stay away from Ball Morphs.

Dave

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Photo ID would be just a pic of THE PURCHASED ANIMAL and his info. You got pics of both parents, the parents' info and a pic of the purchased animal and his info.

That's lineage. Apparently the lineage didn't go back as far as YOU would like. But there's nothing anywhere that sets some standard for lineage to mean "3 generations" or "7 generations" or "40 generations". Lineage means you know who the parents are. Via knowing the parents in this case you even knew some of the grandparents.

And you never answered the questions of "when did you recieve the snake" and "did you get the text/message saying he was on vacation and would return oct 31"?

Signed would have been nice, especially if he stated "signed papers", but it's something that danged easy to accidentally overlook. I've done it myself, sending off way more important paperwork than a snake ID without signing it.

 

[shane159]

Just read the post. OP chill out! You are jumping the gun.

 

[MrsWTownsend]

A question I am pondering here is, why, when you didn't get the paperwork with the detail that you were looking for, did you not just contact the seller and communicate to them exactly what you were still in need of, rather than starting this BOI thread and trying to blemish their reputation. You don't question the legitimacy of their lineage, as you have stated in this thread, so you do in fact trust the seller and it is just a matter of clear communication and straightening out some paperwork.

For this purchase, were you in such a time constraint for perhaps, a resale, that you needed the paperwork immediately or some transaction you had arranged was going to be prevented? Otherwise, why couldn't you just take the time to work out the small details, since you were already feeling comfortable with the quality of stock?

Sometimes these things can be frustrating but consider, if you are placed in an extenuating circumstance, be it a vacation or an unplanned occurrence, what level of patience do you want [or expect] your customers to have with you?

 

[jmwboas]

Thats ok.I am just about done finishing my collection.Have fun selling to others.Its your right.I wasnt looking to buy from you.
And if Al tells me its easter i'm suppose to believe him huh?How old are you buddy?
If you lie,you get called a liar man,what else can i say.I did not get what he stated he would send!I am not looking for anything extra.Lineage papers and photo id.Thats it!
When people ask for proof its a jungle because i'm new,and i say,i dont have any.Guess what happens,they move on.
Having signed papers and genetics to back it up sells!
Thanks for your special input buddy.
And God Bless??? Are you for real? Christians do not talk to others this way.

Rich, Just because your papers tell you the male is a jungle, you still have to know what to look for to determine what babies are jungles and what babies are not. If you don't know how to do that, your still in the same boat. If a customer asks you why is this a jungle, you should know WHY its a jungle. The papers look great to me. I would like them signed for grins and giggles, but wouldn't fret that!

As for how far back your definition of lineage is, there is no (AKC) of reptiles, atleast to my knowledge. If you don't like that, you should be the first to start it. Go for it!

As for patience in deals. I was supposed to pick up some new racks at this last Cbus Show. I got there, guess what, he didn't have them. Said he had to redo them. Not a big deal, life goes on. I didn't get them when I thought I would but my animals are still safe and warm in thier current enclosures. When I get them, it will be well worth the wait and patience. Sometimes things happen, especially when your having racks built to your design by someone else.

If you get this worked up over little things like this, just wait karma's a B***H.

 

[allreptiles1966]

You can twist it anyway you need too.I know what Al promised and i did not get it.
And that Dude shadowaced-...
I'm sorry you think Al is God or something. I only used the ADBA UKC thing to show some people what lineage is as some do not know,its obvious reading a few of the post.! set of parents is NOT lineage.LOOK it up.
Maybe Al should not have used that term if he didnt understand what it really meant.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I can understand where you, being involved with the purchase, might not be able to open your mind to the fact it was a simple case of miscommunication. But we're outsiders to the transaction, and we're not blinded by our disappointment in how things went. Maybe instead of pounding your fist on the desk insisting he lied to you and is a bad guy, you ought to sit back and open your mind to what others are saying.

Nobody here thinks Al is a god. But the fact is, he's been selling for a while, no problems or complaints, and then you come along with "he's a liar" like a scolded 12-13 yr old kid. Your lack of patience does not make him a bad guy in our eyes. In fact, it's been voiced already that your unreasonable attitude in this matter, your refusal to look on the other side of the fence, makes you look worse then him.

"The human mind, much like a parachute, works a lot better when it's open"

 

[reptilebaby]

ShadowAceD is a Lady. lol
You know, it would be cool to have a reptile registry, but could you imagine all the work? Ugh
And if someone tried to sell a reptile that was not registered? Same as the dog breeding world it could turn into a real

 

[Lucille]

ShadowAceD is a Lady. lol
You know, it would be cool to have a reptile registry, but could you imagine all the work? Ugh
And if someone tried to sell a reptile that was not registered? Same as the dog breeding world it could turn into a real

I absolutely do NOT agree that we need more control over hobbyists, what they do, how they buy and sell. A registry would put every reptile owner square at the mercy of any government group that decided they wanted a piece of that pie.

 

[ShadowAceD]

ShadowAceD is a Lady. lol
You know, it would be cool to have a reptile registry, but could you imagine all the work? Ugh
And if someone tried to sell a reptile that was not registered? Same as the dog breeding world it could turn into a real

Rich is well aware of my gender, he is just bitter that, once again, I am poking holes in his logic, or lack thereof. He jumped the gun on this thread and is being fairly unreasonable on why he posted it in the first place.

Rich, I do not think Al is "God". I do not even know the man on a personal level. What I do know is that, as of right now, his reputation speaks for itself and until anyone else can prove otherwise (you did not), he is a Good Guy and he what he gave you was perfectly fine. I really have to wonder what your primary dysfunction is sometimes. You bought a number of animals from a guy back in 2009 (your first boas) that ended up being infested with mites, yet that guy does not have a BOI Thread. However, Al Brown, who sold you a quality animal with a quality background that he showed you gave you what you feel is "inadequate" paperwork and he is the one who gets the BOI Thread? A BOI Thread that, despite the little light bulb for the icon as opposed to the red "X" came off as you calling the man a liar and, therefore, a "Bad Guy".

You need to reevaluate yourself.

You are going to burn some bridges really quick in this hobby before you even reach them with this type of "ambitious" attitude.

Also, just because, the definition of lineage is, as follows:

1. lineal descent from an ancestor; ancestry or extraction.
2. the line of descendants of a particular ancestor; family; race.

Synonyms: 1. pedigree, parentage, derivation, genealogy. 2. tribe, clan.

This is the definition of an ancestor:

1. a person from whom one is descended; forebear; progenitor.
2. Biology. the actual or hypothetical form or stock from which an organism has developed or descended.

You did receive lineage. The reason why any comparison to the AKC, ADBA or anything like that is so irrelevant is because those clubs and organization have a set standard on how far back "lineage" and "ancestry" need to go. There is no such thing here in the boa world, therefore, "lineage" and "ancestry" can actually begin and end with the parents. That is still lineage and it is still ancestry.

 

[reticguy76]

am i reading this thread correctly ??!!!

i mean, who asks for generations of papers ??

next thing would be to ask who the snakes second cousin, third removed was !!

help me out, what exaxtly is the point/benefit of knowing a snakes lineage beyond the parents

 

[jrbannister0726]

the end

I believe that is game, set, and match. Burn

 

[reptilebaby]

I absolutely do NOT agree that we need more control over hobbyists, what they do, how they buy and sell. A registry would put every reptile owner square at the mercy of any government group that decided they wanted a piece of that pie.

I didn't mean that it'd be good for others to have more control over our hobby. I feel that too much is regulated as it is! I'm thinking more along the lines that it might be nice to have something like that for people who might wish to be able to trace their snakes' ancestry, but not necessarily having EVERYONE having to do it.

I DO think that it could end up being a bad thing if that were to happen, however, and that it could end up as the dog registries have. Alot of BS and people thinking you HAVE to have a registered dog and that nothing else is acceptable, which would not be good.

I, myself am perfectly happy with the way things are now.

 

[reptilebaby]

You did receive lineage. The reason why any comparison to the AKC, ADBA or anything like that is so irrelevant is because those clubs and organization have a set standard on how far back "lineage" and "ancestry" need to go. There is no such thing here in the boa world, therefore, "lineage" and "ancestry" can actually begin and end with the parents. That is still lineage and it is still ancestry.

This is one of the problems I did see with the idea of a reptile registry, too. I would hate to see reptiles bred to exact specifics-It wouldn't do much good to try either since NO reptile is exactly the same.

 

[smilts]

I don't see the point of lineage past what it takes to show exactly why the offspring is what its claimed to be. As in this case the offspring is jungle het albino. And look jungle parents albino sire and its proven. I'm sure mr brown didn't either