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AL Cortiz, BAD GUY

It gets funnier........

It almost sounds like Bob Sloan...Hahhaha...Richard Duckworth.......Come on dude.........Were in the heck did you come up with that name??? Last week you were from the Houston area.....Now your in Alabama.....I'm cutting your
cooluw out....put it on that necklace I was telling you about.......Just Call me a Pirate......lookin for Booty......Hahaha :yesnod:
 
Keith Northrop said:
It almost sounds like Bob Sloan...Hahhaha...Richard Duckworth.......Come on dude.........Were in the heck did you come up with that name??? Last week you were from the Houston area.....Now your in Alabama.....I'm cutting your
cooluw out....put it on that necklace I was telling you about.......Just Call me a Pirate......lookin for Booty......Hahaha :yesnod:
Click to expand...

there is another duckworth on here who deals with boas and pythons and people get me confused with him for whatever reason. both have been dealers too. what attention to detail lol
 
What I'd like to know if this is found to be Bravo Sierra (BS) would there be an apology? Joe and Al both have solid reputations,straight shooters if you will. I'd be very supprised if these allegations are anywhere near true.
 
Justyn's supposively got a FOIA request that he's put in on the 7th, Robert. I'm gonna wait and see if he actually posts the stupid thing.. It takes about 20day for one to be processed and returned, so there should be no reason as to why he cant post it by the 28th. or the 29th of this month.

if justyn fails to post that FOIA report to back up any of his claims then it's a sure given that he's departing on the failure boat.
 
This is the response I got from USFWS.

"Justyn,

Please allow me to thank you for your call and extensive research into this matter. However, after careful consideration of the situation, and consultation from my boss and the Inspections Office, we have determined that there is no irreparable malice. As I understand this is an important issue to you, let me explain the reasons that this is so.

The first issue is that neither species is protected via CITES, domestic or foreign law. Our issue of interest however is the fact that the wildlife declaration form (3-177) is incorrect. However, in non-portected species the importer is given the opportunity to correct this error. And, for your information that is exactly what Joe is doing through Omega, as I write this e-mail. Believe me that I understand the frustration created when attempting to follow every protocol, watching others circumvent the process.

Please don't misunderstand this response as our disinterest in information on wildlife smuggling. Feel free to contact me directly with any future information.

Thank you,

SA Roger A Turnell Jr.
FWS RAC/Miami
10426 NW 31st Terrace
Miami, Fl, 33172
(305) 526-2610 ex. 18"

This is my response:

Al & Joe was aware of this species beforehand through photos and made no effort to correct it during or directly after importation and clearance, they even sought to sell off the animals as quickly as possible knowing the additional legalities involved. Also, to LEGALLY export the correct species from the Congo and transport the species through Europe you need to have the correct species labeled, otherwise you are breaking there laws and if I remember it correctly the Lacey acts enforces these laws as well. I find it offensive that I make sure all my shipments are legitimate with months of work and research when these two fools play importer and bypass the laws for whatever reason, ill conceived or not. While I do not fell it is appropriate to fine these individuals, the animals are of illegal origin and should not have been cleared or distributed to the importing parties without LEGAL paperwork which includes correct representation of this species on the export papers and transit permits through Belgium.

I do believe USFWS's position on this manner has set a precedent which these unethical importers and others will continue to follow in order to obtain animals which which not acquired through legal means. There is no reason why USFWS should allow these people to operate in a grey area, and will clearly never get a handle on wildlife smuggling until the laws are enforced. I do not know why I go through such a concerted effort to obey the laws when those who do not get by with it; even when brought to the attention of those whose lawful duty it is to enforce it.

Respectfully,

Justyn


So, the animals were ILLEGALY declared at the least. They health certificate looks too difficult to go after to them right now. So, AL is a SMUGGLER, he and Joe just got away with it this time around. It is still unethical and Al and Joe should be deeply ashamed of their actions.
 
Well Justyn I'm glad you posted that.. But where does it say they broke the law and
are smugglers?? All I see is that a form was incorrect, if messing up forms were illegal we'd all be criminals.!!

Still comes off as you just being pissed that they are importing animals like you import.. Randy
 
Do you if any and how many attempts were made to correct this prior to shipment ?
 
I am pissed that Al did not follow the law and what Al did was the reason why the ONLY airlines out of the DR Congo that accepts venomous reptiles originally had a ban on handling wildlife. It was only after I guaranteed the airline and showed them only LEGAL paperwork would be provided that they lifted the embargo on live animals from the DR Congo. Al's acts could very well make it impossible for me or him to do business in that country again. That is my beef with Al. As for the wildlife smuggling:

"Our issue of interest however is the fact that the wildlife declaration form (3-177) is incorrect."

If you do not LEGALLY bring in a species, you have smuggled it. This was was not declared correctly on the export forms, transit permits, or declaration form. USFWS is giving Al a chance to correct this issue on the declaration form, but unless the name is corrected on the export documents and transit permits the animals still have been illegally acquired. I know Zoo's for example would not take these animals with that documentation. Also, USFWS is still free to open this back up at anytime, it is doubtful, but possible.

I also think it shows the character of Al and Joe offering and selling these animals prior to USFWS's statement being released this morning. It is also sad that they (Al and Joe) did not take steps to correct this issue until USFWS got involved. I guess they thought it would just go away.

ravensgait said:
Still comes off as you just being pissed that they are importing animals like you import.. Randy
Click to expand...
 
None, all Al and Joe would have had to do is stop the shipment, gotten new transit permits and a new health certificate. They thoght it would be better to take their chances and they got away with it this time.

rthom said:
Do you if any and how many attempts were made to correct this prior to shipment ?
Click to expand...
 
I do not know why I go through such a concerted effort to obey the laws when those who do not get by with it;
Click to expand...

:rofl: hmm.. interesting statement Justyn.
 
Intense Herpetoculture said:
None, all Al and Joe would have had to do is stop the shipment, gotten new transit permits and a new health certificate. They thoght it would be better to take their chances and they got away with it this time.
Click to expand...


As I said before...whiny little sour grapes bitch.

You realize that by referring to them as smugglers directly after posting an email from the authorities stating that they considered the situation a simple error you have given them a tailor made actionable statement don't you?
 
Suncoast Herpetological said:
As I said before...whiny little sour grapes bitch.

You realize that by referring to them as smugglers directly after posting an email from the authorities stating that they considered the situation a simple error you have given them a tailor made actionable statement don't you?
Click to expand...
Technically, they did smuggle the snakes in.

No one is going to bother about it and that is another matter entirely.

This is of course predicated on the fact that they had improper paperwork for the snakes that were brought in.
 
I would disagree Wes. Dictionary definitions of the word aside, smuggling implies intent. If the regulating agency decided it was a simple correctable error then it would not be considered smuggling.
 
IF they knew prior to importation that the snakes coming in were not the ones on their paperwork, it can be nothing but smuggling.
 
Wes Do you have Some Proof that they Knew before hand? ? If not I'm inclined to looking at it the way the officials have as a simple mistake made by the Exporter... Randy
 
Since neither butterball nor Joe will come on and say what was in their paperwork I don't know if they knew they were getting papers for one species and importing another but, for Joe at least, if he saw pictures prior to shipping, I don't see how he could NOT know they were a different species than was listed on the export documents which leads right back to smuggling.
 
Wilomn said:
Since neither butterball nor Joe will come on and say what was in their paperwork I don't know if they knew they were getting papers for one species and importing another but, for Joe at least, if he saw pictures prior to shipping, I don't see how he could NOT know they were a different species than was listed on the export documents which leads right back to smuggling.
Click to expand...

Because the species in question are visually extremely similar and scale counts are used to determine one from the other, if I have been following the semi-coherent ranting accusations posted by Justyn correctly. Not something most people would be inclined to do with the photographs they were provided unless they had some reason to suspect the species was being misrepresented.

I count the suboccular scales on photos labeled as indian pythons, because I'm a smartass who likes to get uppity given provocation. I won't count them on photos labeled as burms though. Pickin' up what I'm puttin' down?
 
Seamus Haley said:
Because the species in question are visually extremely similar and scale counts are used to determine one from the other, if I have been following the semi-coherent ranting accusations posted by Justyn correctly. Not something most people would be inclined to do with the photographs they were provided unless they had some reason to suspect the species was being misrepresented.

I count the suboccular scales on photos labeled as indian pythons, because I'm a smartass who likes to get uppity given provocation. I won't count them on photos labeled as burms though. Pickin' up what I'm puttin' down?
Click to expand...
Yup, got sticky fingers to prove it too.

However, butterball is a self proclaimed expert and Joe has been highly touted by some respectable people in this business which comes real close to justifying my faith in the knowledge that Joe at least knew what they were prior to their arrival.

Until one or the other says one way or the other, and if it's butterball doing the talking ...... well, I'd say speculation is not out of line.
 
Wilomn said:
Yup, got sticky fingers to prove it too.

However, butterball is a self proclaimed expert and Joe has been highly touted by some respectable people in this business which comes real close to justifying my faith in the knowledge that Joe at least knew what they were prior to their arrival.
Click to expand...

Maybe. It's true that the information required to determine that was present prior to the order being shipped, but it seems plausible that it went unnoticed due to the extreme visual similarities. I'm not in a position to make the character judgement either way; I'm just saying that it's not a case of someone filing the paperwork to import anoles and then having their source send them mislabeled komodos.
 
Photos were sent to Joe and Al beforehand, the same photos my exporter sent me. My shipment was delayed because I am waiting to new paperwork witht he correct and legal species name, otherwise I would have even gotten the EXACT SAME animals a week before Joe did. Joe beat me to them (the water cobras and the exact same Atheris) because he did not file for new paperwork.

The photos came from the collector, the guy who sells the animals to the exporters. Al and Joe's importer said he sent photos before the shipment was sent. The two species are VERY easy to tell apart. They did not change the name out of pure laziness (and maybe not wanting to spend additional money) to get new paperwork for transport through Europe and export from the DR Congo.
 
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